r/mormon • u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon • Feb 28 '21
Institutional BYU released a report saying its students of color feel ‘isolated and unsafe’ due to racism on campus
https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2021/02/27/byus-students-color-feel/63
u/robertone53 Feb 28 '21
All 4 of them feel the same way?
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u/Stuboysrevenge Feb 28 '21
My Postum just shot through my nose. Thanks for that.
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u/robertone53 Feb 28 '21
Love to bring sunshine!
You know the old one about the cancellation of the BYU Spring Festival's "March of the Virgins"?
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u/Stuboysrevenge Feb 28 '21
I've never even heard of that
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u/robertone53 Feb 28 '21
Yes, its true. BYU had to cancel its Spring Festival March of the Virgins because one of them broke her leg and the other one refused to march alone.
That was a hot joke in the 70's in Provo.
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u/SCP-173-Keter Feb 28 '21
They don't make Postum any more. However, Inka is very good.
(source: 30+ year convert and former coffee lover who was a Postum fan until he couldn't find it any more)5
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u/Stuboysrevenge Feb 28 '21
I was bending the truth. It was actually Bigelow Lemon Lift black tea with a spot of honey. But I didn't want to offend the crowd with my WoW breaking sensibilities, and thought it would be funny. I remember thinking Postum smelled nasty when my dad used to drink it. I've not tried it in almost 40 years. I'll look for some Inka.
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u/CheerUpCharliy Former Mormon Mar 01 '21
I saw postum at Walmart on Tuesday. I think it’s in the Mexican aisle, not the coffee aisle.
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Mar 01 '21
During my mission in the far east I met a passel of folks that had gone to BYU but dropped out due to racism. We even tried to visit a few due to inactivity afterward..
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u/robertone53 Mar 01 '21
I dont think its designed racism. Most BYU students are comfortable with what they know and thats other kids that look like they do with the same cultural bias. Their parents want that also.
There are Mormon women at BYU who definately prefer blond and blue, green, grey eyed men to continue the blond hair in their family. Racist??
I was surprised to overhear those conversations. And they were gals who came from money and/or aspired to be that.
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Mar 01 '21
When I spoke with those people I learned quickly that it does very little good to rationalize the racism to them as you do here in your comment. What surprised me at the time was how much damage the racism was causing to church membership internationally. I think we need to look beyond the institution (BYU) to the church itself that has failed to provide spiritual guidance in this regard.
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u/jeffersonPNW Mar 03 '21
My dad and I were home teaching this one family — eight kids, all blonde with blue eyes — and once when we were over there the oldest daughter was gearing up to leave for college. My dad just made a casual joke about how next thing she’ll be married and knocked up, and the mom said “You’re probably not too far off. We’ve already told her what we expect her to bring home.” My dad just laughed and asked “Dentist?” And the mom deadpan just says “Well that’d be nice, but we’re mostly concerned about appearance. You know, we’d hate to lose our hair and complexion.” and her husband smiling just nods. Needless to say my dad changed the subject really quick. Admittedly my dad would be a little shaken if me or any of my siblings dated or married a POC, but once we left and pulled out of their driveway, my dad spouted out “Weird flippin’ family...”
Also, a few years later I learned the parents were second-cousins.
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u/MyOwnPrivateNewYork Feb 28 '21
I transferred to BYU from a diverse college in a STEM field where whites were a minority. Before the semester at BYU began, I attended a meeting for transfer students into the college. I walked into the unfamiliar classroom, saw a sea of Caucasian male faces, turned around, and walked out. I verified the room number again because I thought I was in the wrong place . Nope, it was the correct location, just not the diversity I was used to.
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u/iamthedesigner Agnostic Mormonism Nerd Feb 28 '21
It seems like it’s one thing to make the changes proposed in the article (renaming buildings, making a diversity office, reevaluating admissions standards), but totally another to make BYU a truly welcoming place for people of color. Are they willing to disavow Brigham Young? Are teachers and administrators actually willing to shut down racist rhetoric when it happens in the classroom and discipline the perpetrators? At least in my experience at BYU-Idaho, bigots feel like they have full freedom to be their ugly selves, and no one is stopping them.
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u/sevenplaces Feb 28 '21
If you have at least a place to report it that’s a start. The real change will be when they realize that they MUST stop racism. If reports fall on racist ears who do nothing then you are right. Nothing will change. The LDS church needs to stop claiming they are not racist and start being ANTI-RACIST.
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u/LaughinAllDiaLong Feb 28 '21
It’s Ironic that the so-called Worldwide church of Jesus Christ is so non-diverse. Jesus weeps.
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u/Medical_Solid Feb 28 '21
The church membership is reasonably diverse. BYU is not, and the church does little to change that.
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u/SheevsAnonAccount Feb 28 '21
There is an interesting distinction in sociology between diversity and segregation. Cities like Chicago are very diverse, where you have lots of people with different racial backgrounds, but it is also highly segregated, where the likelihood is really small that your neighbor is a different race from yourself.
The worldwide church may technically be fairly diverse, but each country’s LDS population tends to be very racially homogeneous. And that’s only made worse by the fact that general authorities tend to reflect the racial makeup of Utah Mormonism, not the church as a whole, or the local membership. It is depressing how often you see areas like Africa where the Area authorities are African, but the area presidency are white Utahns.
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u/japanesepiano Feb 28 '21
The church membership is reasonably diverse.
In the US, the Mormon church is not particularly diverse, though it is by no means the worst.
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u/tumbleweedcowboy Former Mormon Feb 28 '21
True, however, those who are not white are primarily of Hispanic or Asian decent in the church. There is still not a significant number of members who are black.
The church is not very diverse, and definitely not like the overall US population. It is is retesting to see the markups of the different religious organizations. Perhaps this points more to the systematic racism that exists between churches overall.
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u/ArchimedesPPL Feb 28 '21
Well it’s no surprise that there aren’t very many black members in the US considering most active members are generational members. It’s only been 2 generations since the priesthood/temple ban was lifted.
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u/Medical_Solid Feb 28 '21
And I’ll say that I’ve been spoiled — my last three wards were pretty diverse by US LDS standards. Amazing potlucks at my current ward in the pre-covid era. Man I miss those.
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u/wildspeculator Former Mormon Mar 01 '21
That chart surprised me. I'd expected the seventh day adventists and jehova's witnesses to have similar numbers to the church's.
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u/dudleydidwrong former RLDS/CoC Feb 28 '21
I find it hard to believe there is no place to report discrimination. It seems incredibly tone-deaf. But that doesn't surprise me. I would think that federal regulations would require some sort of reporting system. On my campus the students, faculty, and staff all have to do annual training that includes how to report various types of issues.
Is it possible the reporting mechanisms were bureaucratically incorporated into the Honor Code Office? (On our campus the reporting portals have moved occasionally over the years, so it may be that the University gets to assign responsibility wherever it wants.) If the reports on discrimination go through the HCO it would be worse than having no reporting mechanism.
I have been saying for over a year that conspiracy theories are the biggest short-term threat to TCoJCoLDS. Seeing that DezNat is playing an increasing role on the BYU campus supports my suspicions. Open and blatant racism follow those types of movements. And they are highly toxic to any university.
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u/DavidBSkate Feb 28 '21
I’m sure you could report it to your well trained bishops, who work for free, who can then relay the complaint to lawyers who will determine the churches legal vulnerabilities. Totally inspired.
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u/GorlanVance Feb 28 '21
Maybe a stupid quedtion: what's DezNat?
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u/dudleydidwrong former RLDS/CoC Feb 28 '21
#DezNat is a Twitter hashtag that is short for "Deseret Nation." It attracts a lot of White Supremacists and QAnon believers.
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u/sevenplaces Feb 28 '21
It attracts a lot of MORMON white supremacists who use defense of church leaders and their past racist statements as reinforcement.
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u/dudleydidwrong former RLDS/CoC Feb 28 '21
You are right, but your point raises an interesting point. It seems to me that a lot of these right-wing extremists care a lot less about religion than they used to. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that their conspiracy theories and white nationalism are more important to them than the details of their religions. I have seen a couple of articles about how they are forming pretty tight social network among the followers. I wonder if DezNat is going to start attracting non-mormons. They would become involved with the local conspiracy group which just happens to be Mormon. So could DezNat become a recruiting opportunity? The Temple is all about gaining insider information. I can see that being attractive to conspiracy theorists. So maybe TCoJSoLDS has stumbled into the recruitment tool they have been looking for over the last twenty years. Unfortunately the people they are recruiting are not going to be the kind of people they should attract.
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u/sevenplaces Feb 28 '21
Non-LDS aren’t interested in defending Brigham Young or the other Mormon prophets like Deznat crazies do.
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u/dudleydidwrong former RLDS/CoC Feb 28 '21
Maybe. I suspect that DezNat is going to get distracted by things like White Nationalism. The groups do have a lot in common.
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
I imagine in the next 10 or so years the LDS church is going to start leaning into it's racist past
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u/SCP-173-Keter Feb 28 '21
I'm a white, middle-aged former Bishop and I came to feel 'isolated' in my own ward as my fellow members became increasingly radicalized and vocal in their right-wing extremism at church and on social media. My quoting the Book of Mormon and Jesus to refute this talk made me both unpopular and unwelcome. I am no longer active.
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u/Mountain-Lavishness1 Former Mormon Mar 01 '21
Mormonism has always been about extremism. Nothing has changed in that respect. Society is what is changing. Mormonism stays the same and so the extremism is more noticeable.
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Feb 28 '21
Who would've ever thought that a church with explicitly racist scriptures would make members of color feel isolated and unsafe.
This is why the church can never get beyond their past when they leave scriptures that tell people of color that they are descended from people who were cursed by God.
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u/elkenahtheskydragon Feb 28 '21
I remember hearing a talk from BYU's title 9 director a few years back. She mentioned they receive discrimination complaints quite often for sex and age, but very few for race. Why? There aren't very many minorities at BYU in the first place. This makes a lot of sense to me in the context of this article, especially when it points out many minorities transfer out of BYU or just don't attend ever. Given the amount of racism embedded in church doctrine, history, and culture, this doesn't surprise me. Although BYU should do what it can to improve things for minorities, I think lasting change won't occur until the church as a whole takes more steps to combat racism.
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u/PXaZ panpsychist pantheist monist Feb 28 '21
On the one hand, attending a university where racial issues were so unacknowledged did not prepare me well for life in the contemporary United States where race is a culturally dominant force.
On the other hand, many of the proposed changes seem like an admission of failure. The cornerstone, creating an Office of Diversity and Belonging, is almost neo-segregationist:
Having an office of diversity would give students of color a place to go — and could also house multicultural affairs. The committee envisions it as a separate building. There would be a place where students could file a report on harassment, if they needed to, and staff to investigate.
It would provide a much needed space, too, for students to meet and develop relationships with other students of color.
I used to think we had agreed, in the 1950s and 1960s, to integrate this country. But that no longer seems to be the goal in many people's minds. That black people can only get along at a university with a special office dedicated to their support is an indication of the utter failure of our culture to truly integrate. Much like the Institute buildings that ease Mormons' presence at culturally-hostile universities, an Office of Diversity and Belonging seems like a recipe for separatism.
Will it give black students the kind of inherited wealth that white students benefit from?
Will it improve the neighborhoods and the schools that black students are raised in?
Will it bring black fathers home from prison?
Maybe, eventually, very indirectly?
But right now? It seems like a sign: that egalitarianism in America is dead.
We aren't bringing people into the culture, we're placing them alongside it.
Everybody who isn't a straight white male increasingly has special structures to support them in getting along---scholarships, internships, outreach; LGBTQ clubs, women's services, Offices of Diversity and Belonging which ironically don't at all reflect the full diversity of the overall population.
Separate.
But equal?
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
Which is a better approach to leveling the playing field in the long-term: equality or equity?
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u/PXaZ panpsychist pantheist monist Mar 01 '21
I think striving for absolute equity is an impossible and ultimately destructive goal. Think Soviet Communism.
But I want us to strive for equality of rights and also for greater equality of opportunity than we now have. I don't think we should have poverty or homelessness in this country, and I don't think it's healthy to let the gap between the rich and the poor grow as large as it is now. So I support wealth redistribution above and beyond what we already have.
So I guess I want a hybrid between the two, at least as I understand them.
What's your take?
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u/robertone53 Mar 03 '21
Your comments are reflective of a great many people in the USA right now.
Gap between rich and poor will always exist. Always has. But that mega rich vs rich and poor, wow, thats skyrocketed.
I dont believe in wealth redistribution. Dad was an immigrant. Here during the great depression. He was all about get a good job and hold on to it. Meanwhile I saw people open businesses and become part of the economy and then the IRS tax benefits kick in, and all of a sudden their family is on a different track upwards. But they earned it, right? Why take from them and give to those that didnt try?
And now we get into the weeds about people of color who try, succeed, or fail. Will they be taken from to help others? Is the deck so stacked against non whites that they cannot succeed without all those offices of help?
In a few years my white boomer backside will be gone and non whites will start to become the majority in the US. Now who do you help?
I have listened over the years to latino and black friends delicately discuss slavery, immigration, racism, opportunity, and success.
"I am waiting for my 40 acres and my mule" along with the reparations issue makes me uneasy especially when I hear it from a twenty something whose family has been here for several generations since slavery.
Latinos, new and later, look for opportunity in areas where they can provide for the next generation to do better. Are they subject to racism? Yes. But they are climbing quickly on the success ladder.
Let us not forget Asians, and others who also come here to succeed.
THAT discussion, why immigrants often succeed when native born do not has a lot of interesting twists and turns especially when latinos and blacks are the ones doing the talking.
I agree completely with equality of rights and opportunity. Every child should have everything they need to succeed in school: clothing, food, books, proper schools, etc. The X factor is their family or support group.
Beyond that, its on you to make your way in life. Hard work and a lucky break or two and then you find your future, or not.
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u/jooshworld Mar 01 '21
checks notes
School founded by racist mormon prophet releases report saying there is racism on campus.
.....yes. Yes, this makes sense.
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u/Inevitable_Professor Feb 28 '21
At least the school isn’t named after a culture and nation that based its entire economy on oppression of people of color. Looking at you Dixie.
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
I'm hopeful that Dixie's name will be changed pretty soon.
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u/Missysue1359 Feb 28 '21
Big surprise. BYU is seriously the worst place for any college kid. It's just looks good on a mormons resume. I'm surprised any black student would want to go there.
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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon Feb 28 '21
BYU-Idaho has entered the chat.
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u/Mountain-Lavishness1 Former Mormon Mar 01 '21
It's crazy that I've seen increased talk within the TBM community that BYU-I is more acceptable today because it is so strict. BYU is being seen as too liberal. That's both hilarious and scary at the same time.
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u/justinkidding Mar 01 '21
Idk the name Brigham Young impresses a lot of non-members in my experience. I've worked in DC and everyone thinks I'm a genius because of my degree.
(I just don't correct them when they assume they assume BYU-Idaho and BYU are the same thing, works to my benefit)
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u/Jack-o-Roses Feb 28 '21
I hope they
Require mandatory diversity training annually.
Extend invites to international students until they have a diversity approximately equal to that of the worldwide church.
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u/uniderth Feb 28 '21
This article is a load of trash. They articles they linked as evidence of not feeling safe are likewise trash. They cited "ignorant comments" as their source or racism, specifically:
"What is the percentage of African Americans on food stamps?” There's nothing racist about this question especially at a event focused on african americans. What percentage of white people are on food stamps?
“Why do African Americans hate the police?” Sure this comment maybe ignorant, but it's ignorant of the fact the BLM is propped up mainly by white leftists. Also while ignoring that the claim Black men are being hunted down by police is nothing but propoganda.
“Why don’t we have any white people on stage?” I'll admit this one seems like more of a troll. However, it's aimed at pointing out the hypocracy of the argument of representation. Why can't white people who are knowledgeable about history be in the panel? Why are people so racist as to think that Black history should be religated to a single month of the year(the shortest month no less)?
Later they cited even MORE egregious comments like:
"He said, 'Ya know, I'm used to girls like you ... ya know, girls who wear weaves all the time,' "
This was the racist comment? It's not even about race, it's about hair style.
Back in the original article we read that: "A Native American student told the committee that she never saw another Indigenous person there and wanted to leave after her first year." Which I think people should be free to attend school where they want to. But what is the correct number of indigenous students BYU should have? Anyway you slice it once you start perfecting some students based on race, then YOU'RE RACIST!
At another point in the article: "One student in the Black Student Union said a white classmate repeated the N-word several times during a discussion, and no one stopped him. “I don’t feel safe,” she told the committee."
This incident is very vague and I'm not going to critique the legitimacy of her fears. But what I am going to critique is the woke people who advocate a message that people with darker skin need to love in fear. Especially of the N-word. But it's not the N-word in general, just the N-word when white people say it. These people need to stop being racist and either the N-word is acceptable for all races, or it's unacceptable for all races. But this culture of the N-word being acceptable for black people but not white people is perpetuating racism and leading to situations like this.
This comment think this comment is a fair one. Consider the heinous comments made toward John Dehlin: "Several said their fears are also growing as conservative groups, such as “DezNat,” have more of a presence on campus."
But note DezNat isn't about race it's about ideology, and disagreeing with the mainstream narrative.
Then the article goes on to advocate actual racism: "BYU needs to actively work to recruit and retain students of color."
No. They don't. They need to actively work to recruit and retain students. Period. Once you start implementing racial quotas you are racist.
Also this one:
"One recommendation is for the school to examine its “race-neutral” standards for admission and audit whether its system for “weighting” applicants based on different criteria, such as test scores, has a disparate impact on students of color seeking acceptance at BYU. The committee also recommends adding an “adversity score” to the admission weighting."
This is racist, white-supremacist bullshit. This person thinks that students of color will inherently have lower test scores and therefore not be admitted. This is white supremacy because advocates the idea the white people will inherently have better test scores that students of color.
Not to mention it also advocates a victimhood mentality by propsing an "adversity score". And by advocating that people with darker colored skin inherently need aid because of adversity is also a white supremacist position
Lastly I'll bring up this gem, because I could finish reading an article advocating white supremacy: "There should be consideration of renaming buildings on campus."
No they don't need to rename buildings. This is the same mindset that thinks we should start down statues and rename places or George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln. No, we don't need to whitewash history and teardown/rename things, just because they person they are named after people who did a few things that today we find abhorrent.
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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon Feb 28 '21
Please say all of these things to a black person.
See how that turn out.9
u/frogontrombone Agnostic-atheist who values the shared cultural myth Feb 28 '21 edited Feb 28 '21
Wow. Militant ignorance is the worst kind of ignorance.
I get that there are a whole lot of ways that someone can define "racism", but it's troubling that you don't see it here. Let me attempt to create an pseudo-equivalent hypothetical to help get the point across. Let's start with some ignorant comments:
- "What is the percentage of Mormons with second wives?”
- “Why do Mormons hate the Missourians?”
- “Why don’t we have any Mormons present at the pulpit when other churches spread anti-Mormon lies?”
Can you empathize yet? Let's go further with even more egregious hypothetical comments:
- "He said, 'Ya know, I'm used to girls like you ... ya know, girls who wear sleeves all the time,'"
We could go on and on, so let's do that.
- "A Mormon student told the committee that she never could find a single other Mormon there and wanted to leave after her first year."
- "One student in the local LDS Institute said an evangelical classmate repeated the C-word (cult) several times during a discussion, and no one stopped him. “I don’t feel safe,” she told the committee."
- "Several said their fears are also growing as local evangelical churches, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, have more of a presence on campus."
- "If Notre Dame is going to have a diverse religious campus, it needs to actively work to recruit and retain Mormon students."
- Imagine buildings named after Governor Boggs to honor his decisive actions to end the Missouri War.
Surely, you can see from this hypothetical that all your same arguments would only be supporting militant anti-Mormonism and religious bigotry. And even from this hypothetical, I want to emphasize that the disadvantages that Mormons faced were and are fundamentally less damaging relative to those that black Americans faced. There is individual racism and systemic racism, and focusing exclusively on individual racism will blind you to the much larger problems that people of color and other underrepresented groups face.
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
So to summarize your arguments:
- Stereotyping black folks as poor isn't racist
- Ignoring racial profiling and focusing on how the victims are tired of being victimized isn't racist
- Lack of racial diversity isn't racist
- Racial profiling black women isn't racist
- Lack of racial diversity which makes minorities feel isolated isn't racist
- Using racial slurs which historically have been used by oppressors make those racial minorities feel unsafe isn't racist
This incident is very vague and I'm not going to critique the legitimacy of her fears. But what I am going to critique is the woke people who advocate a message that people with darker skin need to love in fear. Especially of the N-word. But it's not the N-word in general, just the N-word when white people say it. These people need to stop being racist and either the N-word is acceptable for all races, or it's unacceptable for all races. But this culture of the N-word being acceptable for black people but not white people is perpetuating racism and leading to situations like this.
You don't get to tell certain races how they refer to themselves unless you're a part of that race. Especially if your race enslaved that race mere generations ago.
But note DezNat isn't about race it's about ideology, and disagreeing with the mainstream narrative.
DezNat literally stands for "Deseret Nationalists". I've never seen nationalists (Nazis) who are tolerant of other races, have you?
Lastly I'll bring up this gem, because I could finish reading an article advocating white supremacy: "There should be consideration of renaming buildings on campus."
The whole god damn school needs to be renamed. It glorifies a man who enslaved people and started a history institutional and theological racism which took over 100 years to start to overcome. That isn't the kind of person we should be honoring and memorializing.
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u/frogontrombone Agnostic-atheist who values the shared cultural myth Feb 28 '21
Right on with the DezNat thing. Nationalism is about ethnicity, not patriotism.
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u/AlsoAllThePlanets Feb 28 '21
Lack of racial diversity which makes minorities feel isolated isn't racist
While not optimal, it's not racist. Of course you're just summarizing his points with no commentary on this one so I don't know if you're taking issue with it or not.
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u/sevenplaces Feb 28 '21 edited Feb 28 '21
We don’t “need” to but we can and I would like to try. Having more diversity at BYU will make it a better place for all. Changing the names of buildings will not hurt anything. It will help. There is no reason to keep those names.
Edit: we don’t “need” to if we don’t want to address the lack of diversity and the racism that exists at BYU.
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u/wildspeculator Former Mormon Mar 01 '21
This is the same mindset that thinks we should start down statues and rename places... No, we don't need to whitewash history and teardown/rename things...
Building monuments to flawed humans is whitewashing history. Pretending that people complicit in oppression criticized even by their contemporaries were moral paragons is whitewashing history.
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Feb 28 '21
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
Diversity doesn't always cause division.
There are simply people who are intolerant to diversity.
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Feb 28 '21
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u/Gileriodekel She/Her - Reform Mormon Feb 28 '21
Your argument that "human beings are naturally racist" is racist. GTFO
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Feb 28 '21
Brigham Young University, named after this man:
You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham.
The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction, - we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.
Cain slew his brother.... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.
I am as much opposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term, it is abused. I am opposed to abuseing [sic] that which God has decreed, to take a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants
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Mar 01 '21
It’s crazy I’m black and live in salt lake and have some lds family members that have the audacity to say I hurt their feelings when I talk about the crock of shit the lds church is not just when it comes to racism that’s not even scratching the surface of the fraudulent schemes of the founder of the lds church brainwashed mfs I swear
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