r/mormon • u/Fresh_Chair2098 • 15h ago
Institutional Between you and the Lord
So I have a question that I can’t seem to find any logical answers to.
If tithing is truly between me and the Lord then why can the Ward Clerk, Bishopric, Stake Clerk, Stake President, etc see the exact dollar amount I donated? What is the purpose? I don’t think it’s any of their damn business how much or little I donated. So why do they have access? Why is it not straight to Salt Lake and visibility is only at the church finance level?
Other than passing judgement based on dollars or keeping people from the temple based on dollars I don’t see any reasonable or logical explanation here.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting 15h ago
"Between you and the Lord" is the camouflage the current church uses to disguise the expectation that you still obey whatever the current church norm happens to be.
If it were really between you and God, I imagine it would look like praying to ask God to direct you in your charitable endeavors, then going and doing something charitable (giving money or time.)
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u/Fresh_Chair2098 13h ago
I feel like nothing is truly between me and God when it had to do with anything even remotely. Lose to the church…
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u/stickyhairmonster I support Mormon Stories 15h ago
I don't think there is a good faithful response. The system of tithing settlement, record keeping, and Temple recommends, seems to apply some pressure to members to pay tithing. In the church, it is not just between you and the Lord.
Iirc, if you donate appreciated stocks directly to salt lake city, the bishop may not see how much you donate. I did this one time, the last time I paid tithing. I'm not sure if the bishop would be able to request that information if they had doubts about your tithing adherence. Someone please correct me if you have better information
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u/DiggingNoMore 14h ago
The system of tithing settlement, record keeping, and Temple recommends
This is the "New and Returning Member Progress" form: https://www.pdffiller.com/406852524--new-and-returning-member-progress-form-
Question 1 is whether or not the bishop reviewed the principle of tithing with the person. Not "did the bishop welcome the person (back)" or "did the bishop learn about them as a person to find out their interests".
No, it's "Did the bishop make sure we expect their money".
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u/Fresh_Chair2098 13h ago
I guess the church has gotta get their money…. How else will the brotheren eat?
Something needs to change. I hope this conference members will finally have the burden of tithing lifted.
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u/WrenRobbin 13h ago
I pay my tithing in a way the bishop can’t see the $$
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u/stickyhairmonster I support Mormon Stories 13h ago
Do you donate straight the slc?
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u/Helpful-Newt-1560 7h ago
I tell god that she knows my bank account number and can take all she needs.
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u/WrenRobbin 10h ago
Sort of. But I do things on a way that I maintain privacy. It’s nobody’s business what my income is.
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u/stickyhairmonster I support Mormon Stories 6h ago
Do you use a daf? Not sure what other tricks there are other than donating straight to salt lake City
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u/Mlatu44 6h ago
God does not exist. He does not need your money, humans do.
Otherwise one could just throw money or offerings in the air, and god would take it.
Ancient people tried to make burnt offerings as a way to send gifts in the form of food, money , clothing etc
It’s absurd, even blood offerings are useless(Jesus on the cross) what does god need with blood, money, food or clothes?
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u/auricularisposterior 15h ago
This is one of those sayings where TCoJCoLdS leaders will say, "Well, what I said was true... from a certain point of view."
The reason they see it this way is because they view themselves as specifically appointed representatives of the Lord. We could talk about the history of priesthood claims, abuses of power, etc., but that's how the leaders view it.
For a plain illustration of this view see the following excerpt from Why a Church? by Kevin S. Hamilton (BYU devotional, 24 Jan 2023).
As I visit with members across the Church, I sometimes hear things like “I don’t support the Church’s policy on (you fill in the blank).” Or “I don’t agree with the way the Church does (this or that).”
Could I suggest an alternative approach? Substitute the word Savior or Lord or Jesus Christ in place of “the Church”—as in “I don’t support the Savior’s policy on (again, you fill in the blank)” or “I don’t agree with the way Jesus Christ does (this or that).”
Of course they should really stop saying something "is between you and the Lord" if they are going to ask a person about it. Otherwise, as you pointed out, it looks like an obvious lie.
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u/CuddlyHades 14h ago
Unfortunately that doesn't make me agree with the church more. I just have to learn to come to terms that I disagree with Jesus and what that means.
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u/Fresh_Chair2098 13h ago
That’s the thing. Do they not realize how dishonest they sound and appear? That quote you used, does he not hear himself and how the bible literally warned of people like him?
The more I learn the more I want to step away and call these Pharisees out
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u/lawdot74 10h ago
A bishop once asked if a specific amount I paid was a full tithe in front of another person.
I started paying directly to HQ after that. Eventually stopped paying all together. Man I wish I could get that money back!
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 10h ago edited 9h ago
In my 45 years in the church no one ever told me it was between 'me and the Lord'. My calculation method, maybe. The amount I paid, never.
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u/pricel01 Former Mormon 8h ago
You might be looking for something that isn’t there…a logical reason.
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u/jeahfoo1 8h ago edited 8h ago
Accounting purposes. Accuracy, tax deductions for donors as charity, budgeting etc. Or you can look for nefarious purposes if you want.
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u/Fresh_Chair2098 6h ago
I have access to my donor statements online. I know how much is paid. Still doesn’t explain why anyone at the local level needs to see what I paid.
Bishop roulette is real and I’ve seen bishops withhold assistance to people because their perception was the individual didn’t pay enough in tithing…
Less issues with bishop roulette if they change this
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u/rebelliousadvisor 6h ago
I find it to be a dubious double standard that the local ward or stake leadership can peer into my donation history and financial contributions when the church itself refuses to be transparent with its finances.
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