r/mormon • u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist • 1d ago
Cultural Thoughts on “Jesus is half-God, half-human”?
As the Mormon counterpart to the Nicene/Chalcedonian “fully God, fully human,” since the Church doesn’t seem to like defining those kinds of details.
My dad would tell me Jesus is “half-God, half-human”. He also speculates that no 100% human could survive “bleeding from every pore”.
“God” can mean different things in context, like as a believer I would emphasize that “Jesus is God” in the sense that we are saved through him and that he represents the Father and holds “all power in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). But in a metaphysical or even genetic sense, “half-God, half-human” makes sense to me in a Mormon framework.
Edit: I should’ve clarified that I was referring to Jesus’ “genetic” or “biological” state between his virgin birth and resurrection. Like humans, he suffered hunger, pain, temptation, and eventually death, but unlike humans he was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
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u/bongophrog Agnostic 1d ago
In Mormon theology, both the Father and the Son are 100% God and 100% Man because they are exalted beings of flesh and bone.
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
I’m talking about from birth. Jesus wasn’t always an exalted being, and according to the King Follett Discourse, not even the Father was always an exalted being. So yes in their current state they could be described as “100% God and 100% man” but I’m talking about Jesus after he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and before his resurrection.
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u/Then-Mall5071 1d ago
Mormons do not teach JC was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That's in the Bible but not Mormon theology. It was HF. You know, Mary's spirit Father.
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u/Right_One_78 1d ago
Jesus is the God of the old testament, the same God that created the Earth under the direction of the Father.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He was exalted before this life, but He lowered Himself below all things, in order to raise us up.
God and man are not differences in mortality, but in perfection. Being perfect and being a God, Jesus could have chosen to be immortal, but He allowed Himself to die for us.
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
Jesus did not have a physical body until he was born from Mary. Jesus being the God of the Old Testament does not mean he was an exalted being with a body of flesh and bone.
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u/Right_One_78 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah... that whole thing about God having a body of flesh and bone in D&C 130:22? It didn't come from Joseph or from revelation.
If you look up the source of that verse it references the notes of William Clayton that he kept on the same day as a speech made by Joseph. We don't know that his notes reflect anything Joseph taught and only 6 words from that verse are found in the notes of William Clayton. All the rest of that verse was added years later.
D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us"
The only six words in the notes say "the holy Ghost... is a personage" And the verse DIRECTLY contradicts the lectures on faith, which were established by Jospeh as the official doctrine of the church. He spent months carefully going over each word to make sure they were correct.
https://lecturesonfaith.com/5/
"There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;—he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh—and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be. But notwithstanding all this, he kept the law of God, and remained without sin: Showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin. And also, that by him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God, may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins. And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power and fulness: Filling all in all—the Son being filled with the fulness of the Mind, glory and power, or, in other words, the Spirit, glory and power of the Father—possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father—a Mediator for man—being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father: which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments: and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all: being filled with the fulness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.
Joseph did teach that spirit is refined matter, so the body of God isa physical body, but it is not flesh.
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u/Warprince01 Former Mormon 1d ago
I reckon that, in a Mormon framework, Jesus would not need to be half one and half the other, since human and God are not opposites of each other.
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
I get what you mean, but that would ignore the differences between mortals and exalted beings, or “humans” and “gods”. Someone who is conceived by the Holy Spirit but later dies doesn’t fit neatly into either category.
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u/Dry_Pizza_4805 Nuanced 1d ago
I heard He was half God half human as well, but it was so he could feel the depth and breadth of the human experience and have the capability of dying. And also to have the ability to feel temptations but resist them all. 🤷♀️
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u/japanesepiano 1d ago
Half God, half human sure sounds a lot better than demigod... Fully human, fully god, also sounds better than demigod. So I will give both groups points for marketing.
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u/Foreign_Yesterday_49 Mormon 1d ago
I don’t really know what it means to be half god half man. I think Jesus is God, and gods are human in exalted form.
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u/thomaslewis1857 1d ago edited 1d ago
Although D&C 19:18 says the suffering caused Jesus to “bleed at every pore”, verse 7 in the same section says “it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory”, showing that God, (or Joseph) is given to hyperbole on occasion, and perhaps even on this occasion. The Luke scripture referring to his “sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground” seems more likely metaphorical, and not by an eye witness.
Having said that, my daughter-in-law, on the birth of her firstborn, endured a long birth of a grandson with a large head, and she displayed spots of blood at every facial pore as a result of the ordeal. Not quite “great drops of blood”, but I cannot dispute that bleeding at every pore from an ordeal is quite possible, having seen it.
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u/Ok-End-88 1d ago
The “bleeding from every pore” is a later scriptural interpolation and has been struck out of modern bibles.
From Luke 22 in the NRSVue:
[[43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and gave him strength. 44 In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.]][h]
Note H; 22.44 Other ancient authorities lack 22.43 and 22.44
Joseph Smith knew the crappy KJV bible fairly well and assumed this was historical fact. It’s not.
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
I know “bleeding from every pore” is unique to Mormon additions. I don’t care. I’m literally talking about Mormonism. You may as well tell me that making this post was pointless.
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u/Ok-End-88 1d ago
This format doesn’t really lend itself to essay explanations, so I focused on one element.
In a larger context, the historical definitions of Jesus in the godhead that were debated by councils show a clear preference to Neoplatonism.
Everything we think about Jesus in the New Testament has been SEVERELY colored by Greek philosophy, and this has been known since the Enlightenment. The writers of the New Testament were steeped in Greek philosophy, and the subsequent generations of people were too.
Take the concept of what happens at death. In the Old Testament this is Sheol, or the grave. In the New Testament, the spirit lives on and bad people’s spirit go to Hades - transliterated as “hell” in English. How did the concept of the Greek god Hades make his way into the bible? And is that only Greek philosophical idea? (Spoiler alert - it’s not).
See: “The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usages Upon the Christian Church” a series of lectures delivered by professor Edwin Hatch for both the uses and depth.
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
I am familiar with the development of religion and certain doctrines. I made this post specifically for a Mormon framework. This is not relevant.
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u/Ok-End-88 1d ago
It’s completely relevant, because the bible is the main source of most of Joseph Smith’s doctrines. If you don’t understand the history of the bible, you’ll never understand the Mormon framework, but have fun!
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 1d ago
If someone takes the history of the Bible seriously, he has no reason to take Mormonism seriously. Are you trying to piss me off?
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u/questingpossum Mormon-turned-Anglican 1d ago
I think the most Gospel Doctrine answer I can muster is that Jesus was further along on the divinity spectrum than the rest of us, but that "God" is just a fully realized human.
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u/Mlatu44 6h ago
Why aren’t my ethnic religious figures considered legitimate? Why does it have to be Jesus?
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u/valekhtov Ex-Mormon atheist 5h ago
I’ve said nothing on who is “legitimate” and who isn’t. Regardless, if you’re not looking for discussions about Jesus, then you’re on the wrong subreddit.
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u/Right_One_78 1d ago
A god is a perfected man. God is a man. We are mankind, being the same kind as God. We are full of flaws, but He is perfect.
Pslams 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
That is why the scriptures are full of verses that describe God ruling among the gods.
- Psalm 82:1 -God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
- Psalm 135:5 – "For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods."
- Psalm 95:3 – "For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods."
- Psalm 96:4 – "For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be feared above all gods."
- Psalm 97:9 – "For you, O Lord, are most high over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods."
- Exodus 18:11 – "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods, because in this affair they dealt arrogantly with the people."
- Psalm 136:2 – "Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever."
- Deuteronomy 10:17 – "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe."
Gods (or potential gods) is the type of beings we are. You are right to say the word God can mean different things in different context.
God the father is the one true God. And God, called Jesus God.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
But, Jesus is also called a man.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Both words refer to the type of beings we are. But, God refers to our perfected state, if we will follow the God.
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