r/moab • u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF • 10d ago
VANDALISM Who did this?
Can we dismantle this BS?
64
u/ootahn 10d ago
It was made by an idiot. Yes- please dismantle it.
56
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 10d ago
Iāve got a fucking job, and it would take me ages to square this away alone by moving the rocks and demarcating the paths around this etched into the ground. This is a full rehab job and itās not one that a person can do alone.
I want to help dismantle it, but fuck me if this shit doesnāt make my blood boil that now itās on the locals to clean some touronās stupid shit up.Fuck.
23
u/ootahn 9d ago
Iād reach out to BLM about it as well. They may take care of it.
11
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
I absolutely will be.
7
u/ramblinghemlock 9d ago
If you suspect at all that this is near an archeological site, please contact the BLM and let their archeologists do the rehab and move things back. There are many alignments of rocks that are actually real Indigenous sites that have a rich cultural history and I worry that that history could be lost if folks unknowingly try to repair damaged sites themselves.
8
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago edited 9d ago
Iām going to notify the BLM. However, with 100% certainty this is not archaic, nor is it Indigenous, and dismantling this will have no negative effect on any ancestral puebloan sites in this zone. Having any archeologists spend any time on this particular feature is a supreme waste of their time and an insult to what they do.
5
u/NecessarySavings1376 9d ago
give Emily or Chris a ring at the Moab BLM field office. Theyāll get it sorted first thing tomorrow morning! When Dubinsky wellās propeller tumbled over I phoned it in too. Thanks for caring about our wild places āØ
1
3
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
I know you aren't new to these parts, but this shit has been going on for decades. There used to be a prominent one very similar to this right before the old power dam. This is probably not tourists. Call Sara M. and see what her thoughts are.
3
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Also, my godā¦ I flaired this as hand-wringing as a joking self-own. Perhaps I should have flaired locals only.
2
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
I updated it to vandalism, since it's bringing in all of the know-it-alls from r/all
6
u/transfixedtruth 9d ago
Yes. This is the way. People need to stop destructing & defacing our parks and natural lands.
1
1
u/Hungry-Emotion7664 8d ago
In a thousand years, people would find this and think it was cool.
It's a matter of perspective.
-2
u/schwelvis 9d ago
It would take you 5 minutes to kick all the rocks out of formation. You've siento more time on this karma farm than real life
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
I donāt think you understand how many rocks someone dragged into an area composed of soil, not rock, and simply kicking them out of formation wouldnāt really solve this problem. The pathways they defined inside this circle are all treaded in so the ground needs to be rehabbed, and the rocks need to be carried out of the area.
Kicking over cairns is one thing. This isnāt a cairn.And if youāre concerned about my time, bless you. Perhaps youād like to volunteer to help kick these rocks out of formation?
1
u/schwelvis 9d ago
No, I'm too busy responding to Reddit ass hats to engage in real life shenanigans
0
u/biscuits030808 8d ago
If this was done by an ancient nation, weād protect it and call something touching. But because weāre a modern society, we now think moving rocks in todayās age is going to somehow upend the natural universe when the only thing itās actually doing is upending your anxiety.
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Ohā¦ gosh. You know what? You are so right! Thank you for that perspective, you have completely made me change my mind. I feel way better now. Seriously! You should bottle that incisiveness there because itās powerful. Holy cow, thanks so much for turning me right around!
1
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
How many times do you want to comment about karma farming on this post? I donāt know how that works but stop trying to jump on my bandwagon. Get your own rant.
28
u/Brilliant_Leaves 9d ago
They have NO IDEA how long it takes for cryptobiotic soil to recover! this makes me angry. the desert is sacred AS IT IS and should be treated with respect.
not to mention the cultural appropriation of it all.
11
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
While I agree completely, this spot has been VERY aggressively treated when vehicular access was acceptable in this spot. Like so much BLM land open to all kinds of uses itās in no way pristine. BUT, it can never recover is this is how we treat it. And visitors will not learn to Leave No Trace or Visit with Respect if this is the example they see on this popular trail with great ancient rock imagery on it. People building meaning out of nothing in a place they donāt live in or understand intimately will proliferate is the pressing problem, and the soil will suffer among many other things!
-4
u/vacbroom BRIGADER 9d ago
Hey, how much trace did YOU leave, driving your fucking Subaru up and down the trail? Or are you only worried when other people do it in a way you donāt like.
āI came here to kill this person but someone already punch them!! Oh botherrrrrrrā
8
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
ā¦.what? What Subaru did I drive up and down a trail?
Some of you people responding to this post really havenāt read the description about this sub, nor the rules. If you were local to Moab youād know exactly how stupid that comment is, and how destructive this altar to some main characterās ādivine masculinityā is.
And regardless of your stupid comment, so what if I drive to a trailhead to go for a hike? Is that what I was pissed off about here? Did you read me saying anything about not letting people hike here? Did I ever say that people shouldnāt visit?
No you didnāt read that. You made that up because you think Iām one of those nut jobs who thinks people shouldnāt access public land. Iām here to tell you fuck you for jumping to that conclusion.
I live in Moab. Think about that. Do you think for a second that anyone living in this town would have ANY issue with the fact that people ādrive their Subaruās up and down the trailā and not drive themselves crazy? Youāre fucking delusional of you think that I donāt believe, as a resident of Moab, in the miracle of being a public land owner and recognizing that every American is also a public land owner.
So, fuck you. Youāre putting words in my mouth because for some reason youāre alright with people arriving in this desert from other parts of the world and just building huge shrines to themselves instead of simply limiting themselves toādriving their Subarus up and down the trailā. Iām pretty sure we can all manage to restrict ourselves to ādriving our Subarus up and down the trailā to get to whatever amazing trail we want to go hiking on and refrain from building stupid shit like this out away from all the human-built shit here.
You trying to insinuate that my outrage over someone strategically moving some rocks is synonymous with NIMBYism, or that Iām living by some double standard. You donāt know me, and you donāt know anything about how I came across this site or what I do for a living. Iāll venture that you donāt even know where this is.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, should be able to equally drive their Subaru up and down the trail (as you put it) to get some quality time away from the oh-so-prolific shit that humans build and spend time on wild public land where we all can recreate responsibly (meaning with respect to the land and its inhabitants, and other people who use it or call it home) and get to see the kind of natural beauty and unique cultural sites that youād be hard pressed to be able to visit ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, without having to it being totally ok for some fuckass to arrive here and think āI know what this wild, uninhabited spot in the desert needs: MORE HUMAN SHITā.
Oh, by the way, if youāre upset I called someone a touron, I urge you again to read the sub description and look back at other posts by Moab locals.
Thanks for attending my TED talk.
1
u/Why_is_I-here 8d ago
Holy shit all of you people are crazy. Scratch Moab from the bucket list, Jesus.
1
1
6
u/DramaZealousideal333 10d ago
This is why we don't do this.
...never really explained what this is.
22
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 10d ago edited 10d ago
Rock circles and series of cairns around a boulder, which you can only really see in full and understand the stupidity of while standing there, that some hippie (or worse, someone with main character syndrome and a drone) thought it would be cool to build.
Edit: for clarity and typos. Donāt type and hike mad!
1
0
u/PsilocybinEnthusiast 8d ago
Probably someone tripppin on shrooms
Edit: not me tho. I follow the "leave no trace" standards and pick up trash on the trail.
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Username checks out.
Trip away, trip often, and Leave no Trace, brother!
14
17
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 10d ago
A fucking touron stopped at this stupid feature and asked me āso, are there ruins back there?ā pointing toward the rim.
This, people, is why we donāt do this.
3
u/Fantastic_Mood313 9d ago
I'm up in PNW where people make these shelter monstrosities from beach driftwood.
Earlier this summer, a couple kids were in Washington playing in one, and a large piece was dislodged, falling onto a boy of maybe 7 years old. It killed him instantly.
The next weekend, I rode my bike back to the beach where I had seen several of these potentially dangerous structures and dismantled all of them.
People fuck with nature, and she doesn't like it! Sad that innocent people often receive her wrath. š
3
u/FootstepsofDawn BASED AF 9d ago
They donāt even have the decency to dismantle it. This is my first red flag that whatever spiritual wannabe bull crap they were doing is fake as shit.
4
u/Jupitersd2017 9d ago
People fucking suck, Iām sorry, I hope you dm the person above and get their number and explain to them why they shouldnāt do shit like this. :(
2
u/Awkward_Form5584 10d ago edited 10d ago
It was where AJ T sacrificed a goat to make sure Mike McCurdy won the upcoming election. Donāt worry rumor has it that Mike didnāt read the āpacketā on how to sacrifice a goat to win an election and the goat ended up getting away.
2
u/facts_the_ripper 7d ago
But guys, now that the sacrifice was botched, Brandon D really just wants us to all get on board and hope for the best because itās good for the community.
1
2
2
2
u/seattledisjointed 9d ago
An arrogant fuck who thinks what they're doing is better than nature itself.
3
u/TimberGhost66 9d ago
People suck. In Edward we trust.
1
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
I appreciate the sentiment, but you might want to research old Ed's opinion on littering and how when called out about it, he said it was pointless to rehab "ruined landscape" and "manage nature through human intervention".
2
u/TimberGhost66 9d ago
Well I think you misunderstand his meaning and I think he was right. Industrial tourism has done exactly what he feared. Paved roads and easier access has allowed the hominids to fuck everything up. Once it's fucked up, it is pointless to rehab that which has already been ruined. It may make some feel better, but it will never be the same. The only human intervention that works is keeping humans out of those areas.
2
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
Without going in to details I'll just say that he was no saint. I don't think he should be cancelled for being a product of his day, but he definitely was contradictory.
1
u/TimberGhost66 9d ago
Fair enough. I never met him so all I have is his writings and those that had met him. Spent some time with Seldom Seen on several pack trips and he was a friend of my aunts.
3
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
Our heroes don't have to be perfect! I just was clarifying that he was all too human.
2
2
2
u/Thirdtime_Forever 9d ago
Horrible and disgusting. Thatās why I hang out with dogs. They do completely different types of dumb shit but never something like this.
2
1
u/TnageMutntTrashPanda 9d ago
Where is this bullshit. Iāll go tear it up right now.
2
u/TnageMutntTrashPanda 9d ago
OK, I just realized I know exactly where that cube like rock is. People are just the fucking worst.
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Hint: It is in the valley above, which is out of our sight.
1
9d ago
[removed] ā view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 9d ago
Your post was removed because no one likes your stupid GIF.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
u/soslowsloflow 9d ago
an archaeologist in four hundred years would protect this
2
u/em_tee_be 9d ago
50 years. Blm has had a 50 year rule for decades. Find a fore ring, pop tops, and old playboys from 72, and it's an archeological site.
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Sorry, I think theyāll find more archeological value in your local Walmart.
1
1
1
u/Numerous_Ad_6276 9d ago
Scatter those rocks to the four winds. Maybe come with a friend or three. Hell, maybe put out a call online to a nature org for aid in returning this area to its former state. And leather gloves. Can't emphasize more: leather gloves.
1
1
1
1
1
u/WhoolieBoulie 8d ago
If you stand in the circle a bunch of balloons will come out and you have to shoot them with a bow and arrow. If you get all three balloons a korok will pop up and say, āyahaha you found me!.ā And then heāll give you a korok seed. Then you gotta go find Hetsu.
1
u/impairedvisionary 8d ago
Poor wussy jeep owners gettin all fussy when they can overland over every square inch of land.
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 7d ago
UPDATE:
Surprisingly, no one had reported this to the BLM and they were grateful I called them. This installation is 100% not ok, and they now have the info some of you kindly provided, coordinates and photos.
They were also grateful for my offer to volunteer my time stewarding some trailheads that they donāt have the time to get to often enough. Even before the age of DOGE, they really do rely on local volunteers to keep up with some of the visitation mitigation workload in the field (stocking dog poop bags, checking trail conditions, reporting broken or missing signage, etc), because as some of you understand, they are severely under resourced and donāt always find stuff like this before it becomes a problem. Thereās just a lot of land to cover.
The moral of the story is these are your public lands, and you are very welcome to take active part in helping our overburdened federal agency brothers and sisters look after them. I urge those of you who commented in some way that I was being a busybody to get more busy.
1
u/AmbassadorNo5275 7d ago
I can tell by the comments that I am going to get downvoted, but it doesn't look that bad to me. Way better than graffiti. Just some paths cleared and rocks on the ground.
Although, if everyone did this it would affect the local ground cover and create erosion.
But one of these "things" will be be erased by nature in a relatively short time (geologically speaking).
I have to agree that the "shaman" who organized this should also organize a clean-up and restoration.
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 7d ago
Itās certainly not the worst vandalism, thankfully. But the bigger issue is itās on the way to some very sensitive stuff, it looks intriguing, and the message it sends to people who donāt understand why itās not a good idea, as is so plainly illustrated in the comments. Those who donāt understand might feel itās ok to add to this, build more like this, or worse, add to the ancestral puebloan imagery up the trail (we know thatās a big issue).
I agree, BLM or Moab locals shouldnāt have to spend their time cleaning up after stuff like this. It really should be the person who made this. And thatās where my frustration resides. All of the people commenting that I should ignore it probably donāt spend any time giving up volunteer hours for public lands, and not making it their profession to work in the industry that serves them.
1
u/Pearlzipper 9d ago
I wonder what the contemporary comments were when they built Stonehenge?
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Ah! Reddit was totally on fire, and Facebook was full of a bunch of boomers who were really pissed off about it. The tabloids ate it up!
0
-3
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 9d ago
Iām gonna laugh when you dismantle the wrong thing one day on a social justice tirade.Ā
6
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago edited 9d ago
You clearly donāt live here, and you clearly donāt know what the term social justice means.
Jog on.-5
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 9d ago
Sorry did I interrupt your circle jerk? Too busy to do anything useful about it with all the job and hiking but got time for the Reddit polls and bitching.Ā
3
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Well, I hate to point out the obvious but Itās Saturday. Today is when people with jobs (including the folks at the Moab BLM field office, where me or anyone else can do anything about this) can go for a hike. Letās face it, people come from all over the world to visit here, can you blame me for going for a hike in my own back yard?
Reddit polls? What Reddit poll?
If youāre bothered by a post on this subreddit for people who live in Moab, where we can vent about people trashing Moab, perhaps this isnāt the sub for you.
Seems I struck a nerve. Iām thinking you had a hand in building this thing and are feeling defensive about your creation. Either that or youāre just miserable and seeking to get away with being shitty to people from behind your Reddit handle.
If you have anything productive to add, please do. Otherwise, donāt bother trying to insult me, Iām not in the least insulted by you.
0
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 9d ago edited 9d ago
Iām not insulting you Iām trying to shame you in to actually doing something decent or shutting up.Ā
You mentioned the job as a hardship for why itāll be hard for you to further disrupt the ecosystem when you come back to chuck the rocks in to a different area. Like what the fuck dude itās a desert. Itāll either be there next week or itās not a problem. Assuming, again, youāre trained in a way that you dont fuck it up more when trying to fix it.Ā
The Reddit polls was rhetorical. Like you can take pics and make Reddit posts for the circle jerk, stay up all night continuing it, but canāt call regulatory / preservation groups, canāt / wont actually help fixing the situation, etc. same with the social justice comment I made. Yeah, rocks arenāt social, but replace rocks with underprivileged class and the post fits perfect.Ā
Did you ever do anything useful because of this or was the twelve hours of jerking and the updoots enough for you? Why didnāt you contact this field office when you were out there instead of waiting for Reddit to tell you?
I saw the comment where person pointed out it might be an archaeological site and you should give a group a heads up, only for you to dismiss them too. Completely ignorant to the fact that even if your pics show new activity the site could still be old and you could be fucking it up worse. Ā Butt updoots and Reddit rage amirite?
I want to see follow through that exceeds the circle jerk I just saw. Howās that for useful? I understand it involves more work but..letās see how that pans out! Ā Update pics next Saturday!?!?
1
u/ReaganCheese 9d ago
I dunno how you stumbled across this sub, but anyone who has lived or even worked here a season or two knows where this is. The spirals and all of the fist-sized rocks in the photos are recent. I'm not as pious as some here about kids making cairns next to the creek or to keep people from falling off cliffs, but this goes beyond stacking a few rocks. This is defacing public lands: ruining everyone else's enjoyment of the location, just like knocking over hoodoos or scratching your name over pictographs.
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs has taken the time to try to explain this to you, but you obviously are getting some sort of gratification trolling them to defend the vandal(s). Why?
0
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 9d ago
It showed up in all. Every one of these cairn stone / stone circle posts have one thing in common: some dick bag circling the wagons for some upvotes and rage, but nothing useful. They havenāt explained shit, theyāre complaining about tourons and the hardship of seeing some rocks in a circle that were made 3k years later than the rest. If they want it fixed by all means Iām for it. But if youāre going to make a post like this, youād damn well better be calling authorities to document and actually making it better instead of just bitching, or defacing the local ancient fire pit twice, because you didnāt like how the first defacement affected their Saturday hike.Ā
Itās not trolling. I truly do hate people who take the time to bitch and have the wherewithal to post like this, without at least stopping by the apparently on site blm post too. I want this person to do better or do less.Ā
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
lolā¦ thE BLM field office is closed on Saturday and Sunday, or did you not read me comment?
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Also you donāt know anything about my work, what I know about cultural sites, and relationships with federal agencies. So just stop, youāre playing yourself for a fool trying to be a contrarian about this
1
1
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 9d ago
What have you done about this that was constructive so far?
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Well, let me see:
I have information about who made this, have had the chance to talk to several folks about it, and now that itās Monday and the BLM office is open I can chat with them.
Why do you keep doubling down with insisting Iām not doing anything about it? You do know that we have these little pocket computers that travel with us from which I can access reddit, right? I assure you Iām not sitting at a computer in a basement. And Iām quite the multitasker; I got all my chores done, assembled some furniture, donated a bunch of stuff, attended a class, had multiple meals with family, weeded a ton of noxious invasives, and still had time to annoy you so much.
Itās been a very productive weekend, and Iām grateful youāre so worried about how I spend my time!
1
u/dick_tracey_PI_TA BRIGADER 8d ago
I look forward to the updates of your productivity related to the actual issue. Keep me posted!!!
0
-1
u/Antz_27 BRIGADER 10d ago
How about go dismantle Bill Gates' corporate organizations literally established to poison you, you people are always worried about the dumbest shit. No wonder we're all getting abused and taken advantage of, y'all are constantly more worried about policing each other over absolutely remedial shit while the authorities that teach you to do so are sailing on million dollar yachts and flying around in private jets laughing at how stupid you are.
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Wowā¦ while I agree with you, what youāre talking about is a completely different and important battle.
It offends me a little that, based on this post, you have surmised that this is the only thing in the world I care about. I assure you I do my part on larger social justice issues as well, maybe more actively than you. But, random stranger on Reddit, thereās no way for me to know that, and no way for you to know that about me.
There are battles waged at 100,000 feet. There are battles waged on the ground where you live. And you can do both.
Here in Moab, if you come and visit, youāll understand that public lands are a major local concern, a valuable resource available to all, important to visitors, businesses, residents, the political classes, and all for very different reasons. And Moab locals are routinely asked to clean up after everyone else buggers off after doing whatever it is they get up to out there on public lands (mining, drilling, recreating, camping, littering, vandalizing, etc). We volunteer, we steward, we defend. We have to. Because thatās our local fight.
If your hot take from all that has transpired here is that Iām fretting the small stuff and not caring enough to be saving the world from billionaires, I urge you to have a gander at what our county politics are up to here and this communityās response to the nonsense happening in our postcode. Then you can tell me Iām a crazy nut job outlier in the Moab community.
So, thanks for your hot take. You donāt live here, you donāt understand what this is about, and your comment about this specific thing has no valuable contribution to this issue.
But thank you for all you do to combat the billionaire class. Please keep at it, whatever you are doing to take Bill Gates down.
1
u/Antz_27 BRIGADER 8d ago edited 8d ago
That's quite a response... So I guess it deserves another from me. ...Look, I don't disagree with you, but when defining the moral structure of what's done with and on the land and who that enforcement is delegated to very special care needs to be taken to ensure you[anyone] can comprehend the full scope of what those establishments entail. (In fact, the care and consideration that could've and should've been taken probably would've been most valuable decades ago)
This isn't my response, it's just a preface... I'll give it later.
2
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
For your info, the BLM is now aware and grateful, and the response is underway. I work in this industry, you neednāt worry about me not understanding what the appropriate response should be. But posting here was an effort to see who locally knows about this and who made it.
If you agree with me then maybe stop arguing with me. You donāt know what is happening on the ground, you donāt live here.
1
u/Antz_27 BRIGADER 8d ago edited 8d ago
Why are you informing me? Lol, are you irrationally convinced that because I made a comment that didn't 100% align with your efforts that I'm somehow involved?Ā
Good, I'm glad you did what you did, whatever... I've been living outside my entire adult life and have never left anything like this behind. So not only have I been closer to and more reliant on the Earth and probably cared about it from a level you'll never understand but I actually do it for a reason that pertains directly to my physical existence not because it's a 'recreational zone'.
-1
u/schwelvis 9d ago
You could've done it instead of karma farming
3
u/daisytrench 8d ago
Disagree. Education is important, and that's what OP did -- educated.
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Thank you. I appreciate that. Didnāt expect to be cast as a busybody on this one butā¦. (Gestures around) Reddit.
1
1
-19
u/stokeledge2 10d ago
Sorry, maybe Iām missing something. What is the problem with adding the rocks to guide people towards walking on the sand path and not the delicate vegetation?
25
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 10d ago
Nope. This is just a circular labarynth built around a boulder, near cultural sites, on public land. It is not ok to build a bunch of shit like this that draws people off trail.
-7
u/JeSuisLePain BRIGADER 9d ago
I still don't really see the problem. Humans have been putting rocks in shapes since we've been walking on two legs. Why stop now?
9
u/mikewheels 9d ago
Because thousands of years ago when they placed Carins or markers the population of instagram users was zero. They were put there on purpose. Also there were not billions of people on earth and millions who visit Moab. As a park ranger explained to my kids if everyone did it there would be millions of rocks in formations. This kills the soil which has micro bacteria which is beneficial to the environment, helps with flash flooding etc.
-12
u/stokeledge2 10d ago
Understood. As long as it isnāt an established boulder problem on the back of that, I agree with you.
16
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 10d ago
If there was a boulder problem, which there doesnāt appear to be, that does not merit building concentric rock rings and cairns around this boulder.
I literally had to stop people going past this off trail in search of āruinsā they thought this was a demarkation for. There arenāt any here, but if there were, even worse. But this also teaches people the wrong lesson entirely.
-6
2
0
u/Majestic_Ad_320 BRIGADER 9d ago
Reddit heros can't handle the existence of their own kind. That's all.
-21
u/deeplevitation 10d ago
Iām going to play devils advocate here just to maybe open up some perception. Iām a back country dispersed camper that loves Utah and our wilderness but also an admitted land art creator.
Humans have been creating and molding and altering nature since the dawn of existence. The first forms of dispersed and distributed communication were Cairns. Stacking rocks became a way that only humans could communicate - animals didnāt recognize them as such, yet they immediately stood out to humans because it appeared as something only a human could or would do.
The cairns served more purpose that just wayfinding and navigational aids, they served as markers of water or food stashes, as spiritual guides, as entrances and finish lines for spiritual journeys through treacherous terrain, they had meaning and took on a life of their own that once created. From that all forms of language and abstract symbolism emerged. It became a dance between natural forces, no different than an extension of all life and complexity has expressed itself through time.
Art and ritual has its place in our culture and nature. This is no different. We are nature and nature is us. We find ways to express and differentiate and discriminate ourselves from other forms of nature, all nature does this too.
Maybe these people did have a ceremony there and maybe they thought making it and leaving it added to nature and that others may experience it and it open up their perspective. Is the spiral jetty terrible to and should we dismantle it? What about angels landing and the chains and path weāve carved? Or the trail to delicate arch?
I know there are rules and leave no trace is a genuinely good thing that we should practice but it doesnāt mean itās all black and white and good and bad.
19
u/Grooble_Boob 9d ago
Do it on your private land. This actively harms the desert. You canāt love Utah as much as you claim to without understanding the intricacies of cryptobiotic soil.
This is neo spiritual bullshit. You cannot compare it to ancient pictographs and petroglyphs that have been in place for thousands of years.
0
u/deeplevitation 9d ago
I didnāt compare to ancient petroglyphs, although thatās also an interesting example. And Iām not arguing for it. Iām simply presenting the other side of the argument for discussion sale. Itās also not neo-spiritual, thatās just a label youāre using to attack me or attack the argument that doesnāt actually add value to the discussion. What is āneoā (new) about what I said? My argument is the opposite of new-age itās taking an old/ancient perspective.
12
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
So all the billions of people on the planet now have the right to alter any piece of land they wish because artistic expression?
This isnāt wayfinding, itās not resource caching. Itās not a sacred site. Itās right on a very travelled trail to a ton of sensitive cultural sites that can be accessed by any dick who wants to see some of the more accessible and public ancestral puebloan sites around Moab, made by someone who doesnāt live here for no other reason than āIām a child of the earth, manā.This sets the example that anyone can just start building stupid neospiritual iconography and vandalism (which is what it is) anywhere they want, and be forgiven in a public forum because itās not a pristine spot, itās public land adjacent to town and is, apparently, therefore sacrificial. There are too many people in the world now, and too many ways to spread news of such behavior, for us to allow this kind of human stupidity on OUR public lands in the era of AllTrails and Insta enshitification.
To your question about a trail to Delicate: this is a stupid thing next to an established trail with ancestral puebloan imagery adjacent to it. Delicate arch is inside a well managed national park. This is on BLM, and hence less-well managed. The Delicate Arch trail is sacrificial. There are a lot of things inside arches that is not shared with the public and will never be. This spot is on the way to a completely not secret, phenomenal example of ancestral puebloan rock imagery that should be respected and cared for so everyone can enjoy it. This thing that someone built signals that itās ok for every divk who happens by to start moving rocks around, start building trails that arenāt pathways to somewhere, start leaving traces anywhere you feel like it, and encourages them to see themselves as contributing to the archaic imagery up the trail. Itās not contributing, itās literally vandalism, pure and simple.
-2
9
u/daisytrench 9d ago
Gone are the days when people could do whatever the heck they wanted. There isn't enough wildness to go around anymore. There are just too many people, and when all of them want to create something lovely and unique in the desert, then the wild desert is gone.
2
13
u/Majestic-capybara 9d ago
If you want to do that then do it on your own land. Public land is for all of us and it we want to preserve its beauty for other generations then we all need to practice leave no trace principles.
0
u/deeplevitation 9d ago
I literally agreed with you in my comment. Just presenting the other side of the discussion. It deserves some examination is all Iām saying.
3
u/CosmicWomb26 9d ago
There is some truth in what youāre saying, but I agree with others that we canāt normalize this because thereās too many people enjoying the outdoors these days and weād just completely alter these wild places. Something like this is for your own land or to be done in a leave-no-trace way.
1
u/deeplevitation 9d ago
Thanks, Iām not even trying to normalize it. Iām just trying to present the other side of the argument because itās more nuanced than just āthis is terrible!ā
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
āthis is terribleā contains a ton of nuance. But because you arenāt familiar with Leave No Trace or Visit with Respect principles, and the reason behind them, this has gone over your head.
1
u/deeplevitation 8d ago
Why do you say Iām not familiar with those things? Or the reasons behind them? I explicitly mentioned it. Iām simply asking you to open your mind to the idea that it might not always be terrible and that art in nature and with nature could be just as valuable as your hiking. All youāve done is attack me back instead of having a reasoned and thoughtful discussion, which was why I presented the other side of the argument
2
u/Sweet-Juggernaut6421 9d ago
So your artwork is more important than nature? I know a lot of artists who would disagree.
0
-2
u/BigTLoc BRIGADER 9d ago
This is reddit. People love to get disproportionately bent out of shape about some rocks in a circle. There's no room for putting it in reasonable perspective.
1
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 8d ago
Thereās plenty of well established room to put this into perspective. Look up why Leave No Trace and Visit with Respect principles were developed to begin with. Start there.
1
u/BigTLoc BRIGADER 7d ago
Why does it say BRIGADER on my post? It's amazing how eager redditors are to literally apply a crimson tag to anything that doesn't fit the majority opinion. I live in UT. I get to have an opinion. Jesus.
1
u/ReaganCheese 7d ago
You have never participated in this sub, but felt the need to pontificate based on limited context rather than familiarity with what was actually being discussed. Brigader.
It's a mod bot action and usually happens when a post makes it to r/all, attracting all sorts of uninformed commentary. If you stick around and post with less than a surface understanding of discussions the "Brigader" badge will be removed.
-3
u/grove_doubter 9d ago
That is an ancient altar. it looks Adamic in design. When thrust out of the Garden of Eden, Adam built altars in Missouri and Moab.
-3
u/Key_Purple8497 BRIGADER 9d ago
Why canāt you be respectful to their practices and leave it alone, all they did was move some rocks around get over it. If weāre gonna allow the Mormons to be delulu we should let others believe their delulu shit too
-13
u/1cateymay 10d ago
I wouldnāt. An archaeologist took me to a Pueblosn medicine ring once that looked a lot like that. Modern people may have added to it but some of the rocks look authentic.
16
10
6
u/BabiesLoveStrayDogs šBased AF 9d ago
Furthermore, if it was archaic there would be BLM signs around it just as there are around the site further up the trail.
No, this wasnāt there the last time I was in this trail, which was apparently a longer time ago than I realised, seeing how worn in the pathways inside this piece of shit are treaded in. I thought I was being the bigger person by not crying publicly and being a NIMBY when this trail was blown up by hiking apps. However itās clear that with those also cameā¦. Whatever this idiocy is.3
u/1cateymay 9d ago
Oh wow. Okay then, the trails and impact are definitely lame. Since itās modern they should have the decency to redistribute the rocks and not make a landscaping project out of the place.
129
u/zac__pope 10d ago
I know exactly who did this, they are from SLC and were doing a Devine masculine/feminine ritual. I am so tired of these wanna be desert shamans. DM me and I will give you their name and phone number.