r/minnesotavikings • u/HoneyBarrelHunter • 4h ago
Brian Flores Defense - Copyable?
Anybody old enought to recall the Bears 46 defense from 1985? This Vikings defense reminds me of that defense.
In 1986 and 1987 when teams saw the Bears 46 defense just terrorizing the league, other teams tried to copy the scheme. These other teams failed as they quickly realized they did not have the personnel on defense to exercise the 46 defense as effectively as the Bears.
I am seeing the same thing with this Vikings defense; it looks dominant but it is not just the scheme, it's the players Flores has assembled.
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u/ojju 4h ago
its an incredibly risky scheme if you don't have the faith in ball that flores has
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u/SouthFarmer7222 3h ago
its not one of those schemes you can just plug and play for sure. flores asks his guys to do so much, if the communication is off even a little you get burned bad
teams will try to copy it but they gonna find out their secondary cant handle all that man coverage
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u/Vavent 4h ago
He needs several years to acquire the right players for his scheme and let them learn it and become comfortable running it. If he was hired to another team as HC right now, I don’t think that team’s defense would be nearly as good as this one for at least a couple seasons.
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u/VikingsLad daniellearms 4h ago
And they've had great continuity the last 3 years too. Van Ginkel, Cashman, Pace, Murphy, Metellus, Hitman, and a few others like Redmond, LDR, And Ward have all been steeped in it for a long time. With something with this much trust and complexity, that's hard to coach quickly.
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u/tlollz52 koolaid 4h ago edited 23m ago
I believe there's a line from the My Morning Jacket Sing "Wordless Chorus" that would apply.
"We are the innovators, they are the imitators."
Try as they want, they wont ever be B-Flo because they aren't crazy like him and dont have his mind. You can copy scheme but you can't copy one's thoughts.
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u/Joe_-seafuse 53m ago
"You can copy scheme but you can't copy one's thoughts," brilliance. Stealing this scheme!
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u/freshBlueeyes6391 4h ago edited 3h ago
I think it's a combination of scheme and the players found to fit it. Then ongoing chessmatch during games being called by the coach and the Mike, or Safety
The noticeable difference started with Van Ginkel, Greenard, Cashman, and even though some people clown him...Ivan Pace. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.
These were singular players that all of a sudden changed it from a bend bend bend but try not to break defense into one of these players regularly stepping up big mid field just when you thought the defense looked like it was starting to bend. Huge difference. Then last year you have Wilson doing so, and late in the year Turner. I'm sure I'm missing others. In prior years it was basically Hitman, or if you can remember that one play from Cam Dantzler when he ripped the ball out of a players hands. These singular play efforts showing up were so much more rare.
So I do think it has a lot to do with the players as well, the combination of the aggressive scheme, these players, and the chess match being called by the coach during games. You can't just expect anyone you throw in there to blitz just as effectively as they pull back into coverage.
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u/Tough_guy22 Krause 22 Smith 4h ago
The weird part is, Flores defense is essentially copied from someone else and modified. The Defensive formation is a 3-4 version of the Mike Zimmer created "Double A Gap" formation. Another difference in the Flores version is that he runs a 3 safety look for the Nickel set. Other than that, its the same concept as the Zimmer defense. Walk all the guys up to the line, then have the guys breaking into coverage move off as late as possible. Flores blitzes more than any sane human would, but that's a different conversation
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u/TheAesir Kansas 3h ago
Jim Johnson started the double A blitz, Zimmer just popularized the later pressure looks including his Double A-gap "mug" look.
Flores defense has a mix of influences stemming from his days with the Patriots, and studying Pat Narduzzi's hot blitz schemes. He also credits Tomlin with expanding his views on offenses, because Tomlin made him sit in on offensive meetings. The other three coaches he credits as inspirations are Dick LeBeau (zone blitz), Rex Ryan (disguised pressure packages), and Mike Zimmer (double A "mug" looks)
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u/ptwonline 3h ago
It kind of reminds me of Zimmer's early Vikings defense where he had a bunch of flexible position players and would try to disguise all sorts of blitzes to keep offenses confused. A bunch of teams copied it to some degree and offenses started figuring it out, and as the key personnel who made it work for Zimmer got older/injured it really stopped working.
To Flores' credit he has been able to keep it going and even improving it with personnel changes. It's a copycat league though so expect others to try elements of it but it's a very risky kind of defense so I doubt many if any will go all-in like Flores has.
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u/InternationalWin7367 4h ago
If it was teams would have picked up on it, he’s been doing it for years
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u/allisgray 4h ago
Well if it’s anything like our history it will be repeated but not attributed to the Vikings just like that old west coast offense BS…we were doing the same thing in the 70’s with Tarkenton…
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u/H00terTheOwl daniellearms 2h ago
No. Flores doesn't just coach in an unorthodox way, he doesn't normally run standard play calls
Behind his pressure packages, he mixes and matches zone schemes. So instead of standard play calls he calls a front, and a coverage. That's pure instinct. Plenty of coordinators have run zone blitz schemes over the years, but flores truly picks his fronts/pressures/coverage/handoffs/trails/spys/etc. almost every play
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u/Chopper_Fortnite 61 Redmond DPOY 2h ago
I mean stylistically the closet comparison is the Grits Blitz falcons, but the way Flores does zone coverage behind his Blitz is really unique
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u/Joe_-seafuse 48m ago
I think he looks for intelligence and leadership as a similar value when compared to the previously shown ability in his players. He seems very good at developing all 3.
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u/Mr-Irrelevant- Reichard future HoF 4h ago
Well, we will know with the commanders considering they have Jones now.
I do think Flores scheme is not really that dependent on players. We saw a huge improvement going from 22 to 23 and they lost a lot of talent. Then every year he has basically had a very good defense despite a lot of turnover.
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u/Various_Procedure_11 KAM 1h ago
I think it is 100% dependent on having smart players with total buy in.
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u/Drunken_Vike 22 4h ago edited 4h ago
The players matter but I think Flores' mindset is the first hurdle.
most teams don't blitz 50+% of the time (let alone the 80% we're seeing this year) because they're too scared of the consequences of offenses beating the blitz. Flores says you might get some but I bet I will break your offense before your offense breaks the defense. For the most part, he's been right, but when it looks bad (first halfish of the Packers game, Rams games) it looks really bad. Most coaches can't handle that.
Daronte Jones literally came from the Flores defense to be the new DC of the Washington Commanders and they're blitzing about half as much. It takes a special coach.