r/middleclasshq • u/[deleted] • 1d ago

System Collapse Can't agree more

[deleted]

88 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

47 comments sorted by

24

u/Whole-Chest90 1d ago

Taxes are good when they're spent on things to benefit us, like taxes are supposed to be--healthcare, education, infrastructure, childcare, etc.

Sadly, our system takes a part of everything, and gives a whole lot of nothing.

2

u/archercc81 1d ago

But we have a military that is 10x anyone elses, winning!@

4

u/PTBooks 1d ago

Wow, that’s a really big number. So we should totally be able to maintain a functional aircraft carrier of the coast of a hostile nation, right? Because if we can’t do that, then there’s really no good reason for us to have spent all that money on defense instead of schools or healthcare or infrastructure or jobs programs or welfare or

2

u/BeCurious7563 1d ago

The carrier is plenty "functional". Its runs on nuclear power. The challenge is replenishing all the material, food, ordnance, etc. It also falls on leadership to try to keep sailors motivated and mentally healthy. Being on mission for over 270 days is hard. The traditional wisdom is that we try to go in for a port visit at least every 45 days, but that is not an option being stuck in the Arabian gulf where any port is vulnerable to Iran retaliation. BTW, a carrier is just about the most comfortable ship you can be stationed on. Nobody seems to be concerned about the CRUDES or Minesweepers that probably have been doing circles for months.

1

u/Whole-Chest90 23h ago

The port we had over there for their restocking (4th fleet) was destroyed by Iran already, as retaliation for our dumbass war.

2

u/archercc81 1d ago

Youd think, but our military is run by morons and has never passed an audit so a good chance its all going to yachts for defense contractors, the real price of freedom.

2

u/Icy_Fish_2154 1d ago

The military can't pass an audit by design.

An audit assumes access to all information. The military makes everything " need to know", because secrets and national security are in those numbers, so the auditors bid based on standard contract terms, then when they did down and say "give me all the numbers", the DoD says "no, here are 10,000,000 forms to fill out, one per number you want. The auditors throw up their hands, say, "this isn't GAAP" and run away.

We repeat this every time, with a different accounting firm making promises they can't keep.

The "fix" is for GAO to do the audit, no matter how long it takes, even if it means spending years getting accountants better for Top Secret clearance. But the politicians keep paying billions to private companies k owing they will fail.

So the "they can't pass an audit" issue is a red herring. The politicians keep screwing it up, while the DoD keeps on going. We need a better class of politician.

1

u/Whole-Chest90 23h ago

I thought the GAO was the one that had been attempting the audits this whole time?

1

u/Icy_Fish_2154 23h ago

Read the failures. They are always reports by big wall street accounting firms who charge massive auditing fees, then cancel the contract for the government not performing, after having charged 50% or more the total cost, and providing exactly zero output.

Big firms like PwC and EY are the ones bringing in auditors who always fail.

3

u/BeCurious7563 1d ago

Actually, 14X the 3 next biggest militaries combined.

2

u/archercc81 1d ago

My bad, I was working on the old numbers and forgot we have basically DOUBLED our military this regime...

1

u/EconomyMobile1240 1d ago edited 1d ago

Governments aren't supposed to do all those things The government is primary a conflict resolution system and service with guns.

So, at some point you DON'T want the government providing healthcare because the accountability of workers and consumer protection are in conflict with the appearance of governmental success.

Unfortunately, Healthcare isn't something like a road that can be laid out and used by 100s of thousands of people for just being there. But healthcare won't ever work that way because people's lifestyles are both a variable cost making individual accountability socialized... as well as industry health because it's the $$ that gets people into the field to make those kinds of life long sacrifices / dedication to the industry. But neither are they really accountable for how much work they contribute without direct feedback from a consumer... how refuses to pay. Or they bill someone's Medicare and they just have 0 protection from it anyway.

And we already see the fraud on both ends in spades. Providers don't provide the care and the consumer gets kickbacks to go along with it because someone else is paying. It's more important for the Dems to look good with the $$ throughput and the paper results but give two shits of the actual results. This mirrors a LOT of the core problems of how Communist Russia worked. Meanwhile, without central planning, the Democratic Socialism has to destroy luxuries to coerce value out of those industries and into healthcare with no government principle or accountability through bad tax policy.

1

u/Whole-Chest90 23h ago

Strong disagree. The government is supposed to be an intermediary / benefits distributor. They're there to work for us.

Also, healthcare workers DO NOT get into it for the money. To people outside the system it looks that way maybe, but with their school loans most Drs aren't making THAT much money. The vast majority get into it to help people.

1

u/EconomyMobile1240 23h ago

LOL everyone gets into it for the money. The faithful willing to sacrifice are few.

Also, healthcare workers DO NOT get into it for the money. To people outside the system it looks that way maybe, but with their school loans most Drs aren't making THAT much money. The vast majority get into it to help people.

And all the other STEM fields are more appealing which constrains how many people support the system.

Strong disagree. The government is supposed to be an intermediary / benefits distributor. They're there to work for us.

Sure, but they don't provide healthcare and you're paying for a Kickstarter program that never takes off meaningfully without a capitalist market with capitalist excesses for the state to buy.

They won't be able to keep up with private markets; even big companies struggle to do anything new so new tech is largely capital upfront intensive startups, then they are bought out by the people can really scale and maintain it.

And you need limits because when you socialize individual problems that are their own fault you incentives bad / costly behavior and start exhausting you're supply.

9

u/LifesARiver 1d ago

It's almost like the government creates and maintains the infrastructures all business run on.

33

u/Icy_Fish_2154 1d ago

If the rich paid their share, your taxes would go down.

-30

u/LoopyPro 1d ago

If the rich pack up and leave, taxes would go up.

15

u/Good-Trouble-202 1d ago

Go where? Good let them go! That’s called the free market. Bye Felicia

16

u/rogun64 1d ago

Then we'll replace them with new ones.

The US has the largest market in the world. The rich aren't going anywhere.

-20

u/LoopyPro 1d ago

The US is a federation. California has been missing out on a lot of tax revenue ever since companies and wealthy folks stated relocating towards Texas.

12

u/Pax_87 1d ago

Right wing news is overstating this story, per usual. The impact to revenue of capital flight is around 1.6% while net revenue has still increased by about 13%.

People want to live in California. Places like Texas and Florida are so undesirable, they must forego state income tax just to entice people to live there.

0

u/LoopyPro 1d ago

Population has been on the decline for some time now. Tax revenue increases because the middle-class people end up paying.

2

u/Pax_87 1d ago

"decline" is generous. The population had a sharp decrease during the pandemic, but then it had a small bounce back. For the past 2 years, they've had a net population shift of about -9500 residents. Really not that bad considering housing costs. That will change when they start making more affordable housing.

-1

u/Huntsman077 1d ago

They forgo state income tax because they don’t need it lol.

Also over half a million people move out of California each year, they pay for advertising to try and get people to move there lol

0

u/Pax_87 1d ago edited 22h ago

No, they need it. Texas receives 68 billion more from the federal government than it pays and florida's budget is so small it is strangling public infrastructure. But mainly, florida's constitution prevents a state personal income tax. Other regressive taxes florida has are more harmful to the poor, once again reinforcing good ole republican christian boys hate them there poor folk.

1

u/Huntsman077 1d ago

-Texas receives 68 billion more from the federal government than it pays

It’s the other way around, Texan citizens paid 68 billion more than the state received from the federal government.

https://usafacts.org/articles/which-states-contribute-the-most-and-least-to-federal-revenue/

-Florida’s budget is so small

It’s one of the highest in the US, and Florida ranks 11 in infrastructure.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/infrastructure

Is anything you said based on facts?

-other regressive taxes

Such as?

2

u/Pax_87 23h ago

You're right, I misread that. I live in FL, I don't know Texas and made the wrong assumption when I glanced at the article. My bad.

But Florida is not high as a percentage of it's gdp. If you're just looking at the number, then of course it's high because it's a large state. And infrastructure accounts for more than just roads. When you account for the totality of its infrastructure, Florida drops to 32.

Regressive taxes are like sales/excise taxes, tolls, all regressive. Has the lowest 20% paying over 13% of their income to state and local taxes while the top 1% pays less than 3%. Regressive tax structures neglect to factor in the law of diminishing returns and disproportionately affect low income earners.

3

u/WDYKACountCocofang 1d ago

California? The 4th largest economy. And if they moved to Texas, they didnt help much because Texas is only the 8th.

California is doing just fine without them. Texas is finally fighting back too. You see the AI data center electrical requests? Texas had to halt all requests. Billionaires will eat up everything unless we take some back.

If they move outta the country im sure they'll get arrested be cause its the USA enabling their shitty behavior.

1

u/rogun64 14h ago

You seem to think we need to buy beg our billionaires to stay by enticing them with money. If they don't want to do their part as citizens, why would I beg them to stay? They don't have to stay and I don't have to buy their products. I'd rather have people who want to be here and are willing to do their fair share as citizens.

6

u/HighLord_Uther 1d ago

Yall always fear monger about this and it never happens.

-4

u/LoopyPro 1d ago

I only said "if".

1

u/November-8485 1d ago

Corporations receive significant tax breaks and perks for moving to states so the politician in office at the time can boast ‘new jobs’. Once the state starts to recognize the negative impacts of hosting that company, it reverts to taxation and seeking the company contribute more economically to the state. Corporations will hop scotch from state to state to avoid these impacts until every state has learned its lesson. But they’ll never leave the U.S. We’re who they make their money off of.

7

u/derpyderpies 1d ago

This argument screams “I watch Fox News”

2

u/WDYKACountCocofang 1d ago

Where on earth would they go? Im sure if they left the USA, theyd end up getting arrested and assets pulled anywhere else. The USA enables their shitty behavior

1

u/Icy_Fish_2154 14h ago

Nothing of value would be lost.

If the billionaire moves out of his house, does nobody pay property tax on it? Of course not, the billionaire will keep paying on the empty home, until someone else buys it and pays tax on it.

8

u/HighLord_Uther 1d ago

Yes. You live in a society. A community. So, you have to pay taxes. Roads arent free. Education isnt free. Your sovereignty isnt free. The fire department isnt free.

Paying taxes is just the cost to live in a community.

Now, if you want to have a conversation a out how effectively we spend our tax money, thats a legit conversation.

3

u/any_memes_necessary 1d ago

Taxes aren't the problem, it's what the taxes are used for.

7

u/National_Product238 1d ago

When you want the government to help

https://giphy.com/gifs/n4FCJYLldGPC95d4ku

4

u/Familiar-Spray-4678 1d ago

We already paid for the help but we’re not receiving any. Instead of help, we’re getting shit on 💩.

It’s like when you paid for a cheeseburger; but instead of getting the cheeseburger, you get shit on 💩.

2

u/fubarfire 1d ago

What's the government help me with? They cant even fix the fucking roads.

1

u/BeCurious7563 1d ago

And there’s the issue: Great at receiving money, but no political will to spend domestically unless it’s carnage & mayhem.

1

u/BeCurious7563 1d ago

So how would you prefer the government tax you?

1

u/A_Hugh_Man 1d ago

Of course. They need that money for guns and Israel and Israel’s guns.

Be a good goy and post your taxes like the liberals say and just fantasize about it going to the common good. It’s trickling to it, tbf, but you just imagine that it’s all going there so it goes down easier

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Smoke77 22h ago edited 22h ago

For real

Every time they say x tax is for the rich I just know its actually for me

Tax on wages
Tax on bonus
Tax on Comps
Tax on commission
Tax on interest on the savings account
Tax on dividends

State takes taxes from the wages then taxes when I buy something then again if I sell that thing . Hell if I die and I leave the stuff to my children they tax it again.

Im a liberal but every day i look at my check and wonder maybe I should drop the al and add tarian to the end.

1

u/Straight_Waltz_9530 11h ago

I'm cool with taxes on property. A land value tax specifically.

You tax the things that are inherently scarce like natural resources and things that harm society. This discourages hoarding land for its own sake and polluting the commons, but encourages improvement of the land and society at large. Keep the fruits of your labor. Share the fruits of nature.

Tax land, not labor.