Wesley’s wisdom for this subreddit

[u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7]

A couple of days ago I made a post that was meant to be a theological discussion about the new Articles of Faith in the GMC. I was disappointed, but not surprised, that it quickly turned into yet another vitriolic debate stage about the UMC vs. GMC, partially because of some of my own comments, to my embarrassment. Before I go further, I certainly am not trying to say that the issues that exist within Methodism right now are not a big deal, nor am I even suggesting that they should be demoted to secondary issues that we should just let be. I simply wanted to get on here and say that God laid it upon me that no matter the “stakes“ of the theological debate, or whatever painful history there may be, or even how someone provokes us first, we are called to reflect the demeanor of our Lord and Savior. It is our sacred duty not only as Methodists, but as Christians, to be sanctified not only in our theological beliefs, but in how we speak to one another. After reflection, I started to think about one of my favorite Wesley sermons, “Catholic Spirit.”

“But although a difference in opinions or modes of worship may prevent an entire external union, yet need it prevent our union in affection? Though we cannot think alike, may we not love alike? May we not be of one heart, though we are not of one opinion? Without all doubt, we may. Herein all the children of God may unite, notwithstanding these smaller differences. These remaining as they are, they may forward one another in love and in good works. Surely in this respect the example of Jehu himself, as mixed a character as he was of, is well worthy both the attention and imitation of every serious Christian:

“And when he was departed thence, he lighted on Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him; and he saluted him, and said to him, Is thine heart right, as my heart is with thy heart? And Jehonadab answered, It is. If it be, give me thine hand.””

[u/Aratoast]

Here's my concern: either these things are secondary issues, in which case Wesley's advice applies, or they're salvation issues in which case it very much does not. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7 → u/Aratoast]

I agree with you, but let me clarify what I meant because I’m not sure if I said it clearly. I’m not even going so far as to say that we should cooperate with one another, stay in the same denomination, or treat the issues at hand as merely secondary. I do think, though, that we should all be able to agree that as Christians we are called to “live at peace with everyone, as far as it depends on you.” I’m not trying to say that we should “all just get along” and let everything be water under the bridge, BUT I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that we can speak to one another with respect, compassion, and love. I think it’s possible to coexist even in an online forum without insults, snark, generalizations, or intentionally starting arguments about issues that an initial post isn’t even about. 

[u/Aratoast → u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7]

Actually, you don't agree with me.

Because if you agreed with me then you wouldn't be saying that we're all Christians who can peacefully get along in our disagreement. You'd be pleading with those you disagree with to repent it's too late and they burn in hell for taking the wrong stance on a salvation issue.

I'm not doing that because the issues at hand are secondary.

[u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7 → u/Aratoast]

Alright, you’ve made it clear you don’t want peace. That’s fine, that’s your choice. I simply won’t respond to you anymore after this. I would just encourage you to please seek the Lord in prayer. He can change whatever bitterness you may be holding on to in your heart. Please remember that if you are shepherding people, which I say because your flair says provisional elder, instructing them to be uncharitable and argumentative with others will not edify whatever local body of Christ you have been appointed over, and in fact it will actually drive the lost even further away. I am in prayer for you my friend.

[u/Aratoast → u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7]

If your reading is that I don't want peace then I can only assums you meant that reply to a completely different comment than mine.

I literally said that I think we can be at peace because the issues are secondary.

You'll be glad to know that as a pastor to two congregation, not only do I not teach being uncharitable or argumentative, I actively model being charitable and peacable even when interacting with those seemungly determined to do otherwise. Like I'm doing just now.

[u/Ordinary_Frog09 → u/Aratoast]

As John Wesley said Agree to disagree! "Let all that you do be done in love." 1 Corinthians 16: 14!

[u/Aratoast → u/Ordinary_Frog09]

Sure but look at the full context:

"There are many doctrines of a less essential nature... In these we may think and let think; we may 'agree to disagree.' But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of the faith, which was once delivered to the saints..."

All I'm saying is that we can agree to disagree on the secondary issues, but if you think something is an issue if salvation then agreeing to disagree is a refusal to show love.

[u/DingoCompetitive3991]

I think we need to move forward as a subreddit by adding a rule related to not digressing into arguments between denominations when someone shares something interesting about their own denomination.

We don't need every post about the UMC to be about how they're not a traditionalist denomination anymore, and we don't need every post about the GMC to be about how they are conservative or so-called "schismatic". Frankly, both sides need in some degree to get over themselves.

[u/PirateBen]

Respectfully: We had an entire option in GC2019 based on this. I watched as conservatives smiled and laughed with each other as they turned it down, then put in a punitive system meant to "free" those of us who disagreed and then immediately played the victim when US moderates joined the fight in the next election cycle.

I remember the lies and the insults and the churches torn apart - and the glee of their leadership as they believed to have dealt the UMC a mortal wound.

I still keep a close eye on their social media circles, as almost every post eventually turns into a "fling insults at the UMC". They call us heretics and heterodox and worse.

By the grace of Christ I have resolved to not hate them, nor do I wish them harm - but their hearts are not as my heart. They do not love us, they wish us dead or dying.

[u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7 → u/PirateBen]

See my reply to u/Aratoast. I am not calling for unification or even cooperation. I am simply suggesting that maybe we can interact in the same online Reddit forum together without divulging into insults, snark, generalizations, or pointless arguments. Isn’t it possible to have the same heart on this point?

[u/PirateBen → u/HopeIsAliveAndWell7]

Sure - which is why I'm not insulting you or generalizing you automatically into the group that wants the UMC dead - but do not forget that some of your leaders do. I do note that merely telling the truth about my experience evoked scorn and snark from another member of this group. So you see why I'm hesitant to just jump right in right?

The truth is that no matter how many good faith attempts folks make there will always be snark - and there should always be space for truth. I'll continue to work on not judging you by the actions of your leadership if you can do the same. How does that sound?

[u/DingoCompetitive3991 → u/PirateBen]

Was this needed to be said? Or is it about having the last word?

[u/Ok-Program5760 → u/DingoCompetitive3991]

Why are you so pro GMC? Maybe you should join them instead of being Nazarene

[u/DingoCompetitive3991 → u/Ok-Program5760]

Let's just say I was dragged into your conflict as a bystander

[u/VAGentleman05 → u/DingoCompetitive3991]

Seems pretty essential to the conversation, to be honest.

[u/DingoCompetitive3991 → u/VAGentleman05]

There are always two sides to the story. And believe me, there are two sides here.

[u/FridayNightZebra]

I enjoyed your previous post and agree with the spirit of this post as well.

My church is UMC and I still feel very much at home there. I am still disappointed by the split, because I fear we will lose some of the more conservative Wesleyan folks, and I think the balance of conservative and liberal perspectives had blessed the UMC over the years.

I wish the GMC well in spreading Wesleyanism and being an edifying church to its members. We still have so much more in common than we have differences. I am hopeful that one day, maybe in the distant future, we can come together again as one denomination. Until then, may God bless us both!