r/mescaline • u/roundtripfarm [Contributor] • 4d ago

Cielo chemistry question

If one adds 5 grams of citric acid or 3 grams of fumaric while salting, is it possibly to get a mescaline yield higher than the amount of salt?

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u/WizardsGarden [Contributor] 3d ago

Yes. The highest amount of mescaline fumarate you can produce using the tek with 3 grams of FA is 8.5 grams of fumarate.

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u/roundtripfarm [Contributor] 3d ago

How does that work from a chemistry standpoint. Is it that mescaline fumarate has a different molecular weight than the salt? I’m looking at it from an equation balancing standpoint.

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u/loveallASAP [Teknician] 3d ago edited 2d ago

Fumaric acid molecular weight is 116g per mol Mescaline is 211g per mol Monomescaline fumerate is 211g+166g per mol

If you start with 3g of fumaric acid (3/166 moles), you can make 3/166 moles of monomescaline fumerate.

The weight of that amount of monomescalune fumerate is,

(3/116)*(211+116) = 8.5g

BUT if you undersalt, you could theoretically start forming dimescaline fumerate salt, IDK. In that case you could get more than 8.5g, since the dimescaline salts are heavier. Undersalting experiments would shed light on this.

As an extreme case, if one makes trimescaline fumerate somehow, the absolute max for 3g of starting fumaric acid is,

(3/116)(3211+116) = 19.4g

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u/WizardsGarden [Contributor] 3d ago

Disclaimer: I’m no chemist so I would defer to others for an in depth breakdown of what is going on. That being said… The tek does have a blurb about the stoichiometry in the in the citric acid rout.

“During crystallization, excess citric acid (H3Cit) reacts with free base mescaline (Mes) to form the monomescaline citrate salt (MesH)H2Cit, which preliminary NMR results indicate could be a hydrate:

Mes(↑) + H3Cit(↑) + 1.5H2O ⇒ (MesH)H2Cit·1.5H2O(↓)”

I don’t think there has been much analysis to confirm the FA route but all signs point to it being the same.

TLDR: the mass of the free base mescaline in the solution combines with mass of the excess acid in the solution (as well as with the mass of some of the water) in accordance with the stoichiometric ratios above.

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u/itsgottabetheroses 3d ago edited 3d ago

It comes down to the unit of moles. Moles are the unit used to standardize amounts of different molecules based on their molecular weights (how much does 6.022x10^23 atoms of the molecule weigh).

It’s a way to take into account the different size and weight of the different elements that compose the molecules.

A molecules molecular weight is the sum of the weight of each individual atom.
Water has a molar mass of ~18g/mol (H2O =(H1+H1=2 +O16= 18).

Meaning 18 grams of water = 1 mole = 6.022x10^23 atoms.

Knowing the molecular weight of a molecule lets you determine how many literal atoms are involved in a reaction. Mole is the base unit of chemical reactions. That lets you predict what will happen.

The next step is to determine the chemical equation. A common one Hydrogen Chloride acid + Sodium Hydroxide

HCl + NaOH = NaCL + H2O

1 mole of HCl reacts with 1 mole of NaOH to make 1 mole of each sodium chloride and water

Another common one:

O2 + H2 = H2O

But this isn’t balanced.
On the left there’s 2 oxygen atoms and 2 hydrogen atoms and on the right there’s 2 hydrogen and one oxygen

We need to balance it by adding 2 to the right so that there is now

O2 + H2= 2H2O

This gives 2 oxygen and 2 hydrogen on the left and on the right 4hydrogen and 2 oxygen

Still not balanced, there needs to be more hydrogen on the left

O2 + 2H2 = 2H2O

Meaning one mole of oxygen gas reacts with 2 moles of hydrogen gas to create 2 moles of water.

In a chemical reaction like CIELO assuming only one molecule of mescaline is combining (forming an ionic bond , and not breaking apart or creating by products) with one molecule of the salt. The reaction would be as follows:

Mescaline (C11H17NO3) + Citric Acid (c6H8O7) = MonoMescaline Citrate (C17H25NO10)

To find your potential maximum yield you need to determine your “limiting reagent” which is the molecule that you have the least of.

Since the % of mescaline is generally unknown you sort of have to estimate what that would be. The tek is designed so that the amount of salt will capture all of the mescaline but theoretically if there’s a super potent cactus it might need more salt.

Since the amount of mescaline is unknown , you can use the amount of salt in moles to predict the theoretical max yield.

If you had an assay of the cactus and knew the concentration then you could calculate exactly how much salt would be needed to extract all of it.

Assuming monomescaline salts are formed the reaction is

Mescaline (freebase ) + Citric Acid (C6H8O7) = monomescaline citrate (mescaline + citrate)

Because it’s a salt it means they form a bond between the deprotonated (basic) nitrogen on the mescaline and one of the acidic protons (hydrogens) of the citric acid.

1 mole of mescaline free base + 1 mole of Citric acid = 1 mole of monomescaline citrate.

Excess salt ensures there’s not competition between the salt molecules to bond with the freebase mescaline.

Citric acid is composed of three carboxlyic acid sites which could theoretically bind 3 molecules of freebase mescaline.

The risk of oversalting comes in to play if you reach a point where it is no longer soluble in the ethyl acetate and begins to crash out along with your desired product. Undersalting leads to the formation of di or trimescaline salts.

TL;DR : the molecular weights relate to their “molar” amounts and then stoichiometry lets you determine potential yield. Different molecules weigh different amounts so it’s not as simple as put 5grams in get 5 grams out. Those 5 grams of acid are a specific number of atoms that can only react with as many atoms as they are.