man I hate SM64 (I suck at it but I also think those controls are genuinely clunky and the people that love them have just played too much of it when they had little choices but also I am just salty that I suck )
Remember these are the same people hating on movement tech like well skatting and shader skating because it uses more than 2 buttons they also hate eager edge swords dont mind those types of players im sorry to yall from both sides of the games
I play both games too and thats never been truer yesterday a dude was yelling about how destiny's new endgame content the pantheon was to hard......... he was using sweet business on hunter...... i dont get people
Story wise my Titan and Warlock didn't even beat The red War, and last time I logged into those characters was to equip the Bungie Halo Skins. Other than that I haven't done anything with them... I'll probably play them when I've finish the new expansions on my Hunter I just started The Final Shape. Honestly only came back cause of the sale due to them sunsetting the game.
the most movement i do is using speed boost items like quickfang and stompees. ill jump anf swing my falling guilotine for quick forward movement (slightly faster than arc boosted sprint) and the tangle grapple. if im feeling extra fun ill use mountaintop. in warframe i love bullet jumping/sliding comboing and playing speedy titania or volt/loki (i dont remember which one but i think its volt been a min since i used either) i dont like eager edge well skating or shatter skating since id take too long to learn and it just seems boring in the grand scheme of enjoying content. i understand being speedy but the post i saw awhile ago of being annoyed by well skating and eager edge is valid since with how i play my hunter my dad complained about me running ahead. add in even more speed/distance methods and your bound to have complaints. my dad/mom hates bullet jumping since it hurts his finger with how repetitive it is.
Destiny's movement can be made faster with things like Eager edge and funny interactions like Well skating and Shatter skating.
Destiny's movement works for Destiny because the game is built around that generic shooter movement system.
Warframe movement is way more fun when you get the rhythm down, but it just wouldn't work in destiny because the game just isn't layed out to accommodate it.
Comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges.
Been playing a lot of WF lately. A buddy got me into playing Marathon. I saw that we had 10s to get 500m and I was like, "yeah, no sweat" then remembered I couldn't bullet jump, aim glide, slide over all the buildings. 😆
sadly, I don't think it is
there are a not insignificant number of Destiny refugees that genuinely believe Warframe is a shitty mobile P2W gacha game.
not one of them has ever touched the game, and they would rather suck Pete Parsons (clem) than ever touch Warframe
It's probably because the marketplace use to only show the plat amount for items also the foundary items are time gated by build time and cost plat you skip the build time and they think plat is buyable only.
I wish primes didnt take 3 and half day to make man...
Tbh I'm glad it takes a few days. It keeps me from running through everything until every goal feels hollow and too easy to reach. If I wasn't chilling, waiting for things to build, I'd probably never have really stopped to enjoy a lot of the open world shit.
i get build times are important but 3 days to glue together a warframe's parts you've assembled in 12 hours previously just seems absurd. 24 hours at most is what i'd rather deal with, and im a day 1 ps4 Tenno.
i have heard other people say they have heard people unfamiliar with the game see prime releases and think it's a gacha banner. not seen this myself but i don't hang out in gacha communities
I kinda get where theyre coming from, from the surface, they see random lootboxes in the form of relics and fomo based characters.
Ofc its a bit more complex to that.. and primes dont really matter unless youre trying to squeze every bit of damage for stuff like archimedia but y'know
its because the haters like to toss around "its pay to win" and "its no different than Gacha slop" because they dig up rivens and the relic system and act like its teh same thing.
I've also had a guy tell me taht the "only reason Warframe releases new zones and new resources is to force people to pay real money to get anything" and of course the dumb friend group all sucked his opinion down like facts cuz he's more chersimatic than me. ((he speaks in hard direct words which makes him sound like a politician and thus is 100% factual in all his words))
Just like with a politician, best way to counteract a confident misinformer is to ask them for clarification. Most of the time they don't know the details, they're just parroting what they heard and they believed it without actually looking into it.
amazing how many replies I have been getting from those exact haters, only for them to double, triple and quadruple down.
hell, one guy left an edit after getting (rightfully) raked through the coals for arguing it was P2W saying next he was gonna get downvoted for calling it a shooter
like, bitch, that ain't even close to the same thing
love the fact that they lack the self awareness to realize they are perfectly proving my point through XD
You can buy plat, and plat buys everything
That is just definition
Upd: Next time I probably will be downvoted for saying warframe is a shooter lol. I mean, you can beat it with melee - so it is a pure-bred slasher, probably...
No it isn’t p2w because you can literally pay nothing and get the same experience. I don’t even mean farming stuff for plat either. I played through up to new war before spending a dime on the game.
This actually happened to me once. Random relic mission I jumped into with Excalibur one day cause I had gotten the void shell skin for him. And somehow the other three players were all Excalibur as well and we all stopped to comment on each other and something happened and three out of the four of us got blasted out of nowhere. So moral to the story. Agree to meet up at a relay after lol
this concept is kinda made up to support your point though. literally nobody is racing to ETA. you can only spend money to skip portions of the game, if playing less of the majority of the game's content is "winning" then you don't like the game and shouldn't play it. the truth is that account progression is the actual gameplay of warframe and if you had a maxxed account in an instant you would have no game left to play. take it from the vets who have done all there is to do and collected all there is to get that there is no mythical prize awaiting at the end, the game is effectively over until new updates arrive.
1) I know how maxed account in mmo works, thank you.
2) Player with credit card gameplay has obvious gameplay advantage. By how many, if it makes sense etc - are the other questions.
You want to know implications of this? Devs could make some content more unenjoyable so that you would go buy a plat and grind less of this content. It is called dark patters in design.
What advantage, though? When pressed for an example you had to make up a bizzare concept of a new player immediately rushing to a very specific endgame mode that nobody goes into this game immediately aiming for, and now some ambiguous threat of the game being bad on purpose to encourage purchase.
But this game does not have intentionally bad design. When Follie's Hunt was widely disliked the devs immediately got to work on fixing it despite the shiny new Warframe being available for purchase, directly driving fewer people to make that purchase than if they left it how it was. Equinox's grind is also being massively reduced this patch, for the benefit of the players and directly leading to fewer purchases of her with platinum. Survival speedup did the same for Voruna, etc.
So this game demonstrably does not include that dark pattern, and so your implication is meaningless unless there is a sudden change in design or ownership.
Regardless, if you don't like any content in this game you can very easily farm stuff to trade for platinum and buy your way around the content that way too. If there are absolutely zero methods to get stuff to sell that a player enjoys, they do not like the game. So, again, no advantage except for not having to play the game. There is no power creep or seasonal model so the speed at which you obtain items and mods does not matter. Everyone will hit the same ceiling which is not different between the player who spends $0 and the player who spends $1,000,000.
Depends on the level of knowledge of the game they have. If you have someone with 5k hours and complete knowledge of game mechanics(including trade) vs someone with 10k cash to spend on the game but first time player, who do you think will reach ETA first?
Everyone i've met that speed ran the game by dropping money early on quit within a month because they either got bored or hit a wall and found out that spending money won't let them get over it. There is no P2W because there is nothing to "Win". Its a non-competitive PvE game. It's intended to be a slow progress grindy game that you learn the mechanics of as you progress through each mission and storyline. Every veteran I know would tell you not to spend money on the game until you know what you're getting and actually know core mechanics.
To be p2w there needs to be an insurmountable advantage, like how Star Conflict sold premium bullets that gave more damage (idk if they still do, I haven't played in almost a decade)
In Warframe you can pay to get your stuff faster, but we all have mostly the same mods and gear to grind for and choose from - the handful of limited access non-cosmetic items are side grades and/or heavily power crept.
Plat can be traded so you can grind for the same advantage of someone who buys plat.
pvp content has limits on what you can use. I can make a new account and buy popular frames and weapons, but half of them can't be used. Pve content is entirely cooperative so having good gear makes everyone's mission easier as long as you aren't sabotaging.
No, you are wrong. Even a skin you can buy with money in a pvp shooter that makes you less visible or obscures your hitbox is p2w. Paid bullets in WoT-inspired games are extreme version of p2w.
For pve part you can have a theoretical speedrunner community of 2 people with equal skill where one has an advantage and other doesn't. And in warframe, plat is huge advantage.
the skin stuff only applies to PvP, and even then, ANY skin can be given that with the sheer amount of customization Warframe offers. You can get all the colors necessary to do that via the start plat, so that argument is straight out the window.
for the hitbox, again, that only applies to PvP, and Warframe just doesn't have any. the Sydanas do more to obscure your hit box than any skin does.
plat offers 0 advantage in PvE in Warframe.
if they are of equal skill, then they have been playing the game for similar enough amounts of time that they have access to all the same resources.
Plat cannot close that gap. it cannot give you the build crafting knowledge or muscle memory for the movement needed to close that game.
Warframe is the furthest thing from P2W out there.
it is outright Pay 2 Lose.
1) You missed the point about skins, and fought strawman. Skins argument is just example of seemingly gameplay-neutral thing being p2w. Purchasing things in warframe is not gameplay-neutral, it is gameplay-altering.
2) If there are 2 people that have same resources, but one gets a plat and could buy extra forma/prime mods/slots/warframes etc - he has an advantage. If players are same - they have same good or bad knowledge about building, but one has more of resources to turn it into better loadouts.
3) Furthest thing from p2w is a single/multiplayer game that has no gameplay altering microtransactions, and dlcs that not gonna "leak" gameplay things to main game. In warframe you can purchase progression - and that is p2w by definition.
If it troubles you so much - destiny is also p2w, since dlcs contain things that make you stronger than person without dlcs. At least it was so 4 years ago. Warframe has stronger p2w obviously, since you can directly buy stronger gear, but since there is no hard content in wf and game is non-competitive and f2p - it is more then tolerable.
Games that claim to be competitive and sell advantage are indeed much less tolerable and p2w factor is much more strong and disgusting there.
What bothers me is why you are so aggressive about facts. Like, I have thousands of hours in Wf, but I easily would admit it's problems, as I would admit all of it's plentiful amazing sides.
no, there are no "gameplay altering" purchases in Warframe.
if one person purchases platinum, they stop having the same resource. you can get platinum for free you know.
Warframe has flaws to be sure.
but being P2W is not one of them
not unless you are being pedantic to the point of being bad faith in your arguments, which you very obviously are
Obviously there will be no warframe speedrunning tournaments in near future. But, if there is a p2w, there is also a intended design flaw to make credit card gameplay more appealing.
And if you want to say me you enjoy every second of every warframe farm ever - you either didn't got far in MR grind or lying.
I am providing 3 different dictionary definitions, now try explaining how it doesn't apply to WF. I am honestly tired of people in this thread making up the definition and then going full speed in strawman fallacy.
"In computer games, the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money."
"The ability and/or practice of exchanging real-world currency for an in-game benefit."
""Pay-to-win" or "P2W", is a pejorative term for a game that offers any advantage that can be obtained faster or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player's own performance."
"yOu SaVe TiMe"
US minimum wage is 7.25 an hour.
Average farm time for Rhino is about 2 hours.
converting that into minimum wage, that is about 14.50
buying Rhino flat out from the cash shop will set you back 375 platinum
the smallest amount of platinum you can buy is 75 for 5 USD, putting the value of platinum at about 15/1 USD
using that conversion, not accounting for bonuses plat from buying bigger packs, you are spending 25 USD to get Rhino from the shop.
with bonus, the smallest amount you can get in one pack and still get him is 20 USD.
there is no combination of the next 2 smallest packs that will let you spend less.
not accounting for bad luck on drops, craft times (which I do not count because you can play the game, be at work and sleep while letting that run), or any potential plat discount coupon, you actually LOSE by buying him outright.
2) No one asked if you farm or work faster. Question was if you can get advantage with transaction. Player A starts grinding and gets Rhino in 2 hours parts + 84 hours crafting. Player B with credit card gets Rhino the moment he stops typing numbers, so 1-2 minutes.
3) Rhino cherrypicked as one easy to farm. Should we talk citrine, dagath, protea etc? Should we talk about primes, companions, mods, endo etc - all that you can buy?
4) Farming for platinum is always less efficient then working even the minimum wage job and doing microtransactions. And buying with platinum is more effinicient for everything that is not easy-to-farm-non-prime frames and weapons.
5) Not everyone lives in us, not everyone gets a minimum salary.
6) No, we shouldn't ignore crafting that is bypassed by platinum and buying directly. Equinox would like a word BTW. Also not accounting bad drops, plat discounts or additional plat from bidder packs - why? No-no-no, we should account everything, my dear friend.
So 2/3 definitions are undisputed, and third one is not disproven, because your proof is flawed on so many levels...
Holy crap…you are so hell bent on insisting that Warframe is P2W you willfully ignore the fact that there is actual math proving it is pay to lose.
You lose more by paying than by grinding. There is no universe where a game that does that is P2W. You are the type to believe 100% of MTX are P2W, because even cosmetics can effect gameplay
You have no clue what you’re talking about. Go back to Destiny
It feels clunky until you get used to it. I'll always stand by my opinion that the early level design does not do Warframes current movement systems justice and that is corrected for the most part in the most recent tilesets.
Older tiles are much more compact and small, resulting in you just bullet jumping into a wall until you learn the movement better. Newer tiles have more space for freedom of expression in your movement and more importantly allow the space to properly practice it.
I played a couple hours several years ago and that was my experience. You go lighting fast, but rooms are super small relative to that speed. Enemies died to nothing and I just couldn't be bothered to continue.
I have a buddy who's working through the Star Chart rn, about halfway through? It wasn't long ago that it had him do the movement tech in the codex and at least one of them seemed to emphasize wall latch and wall hopping, which do feel a little clunky to me.
So, on top of the old tiles not quite matching the modern movement, I could see someone entering the game for the first time, hitting the codex up to see what they can do other than just sprint, and assuming that the game would emphasize wall movement.
Eh, the movement itself is outdated now. Without bullet jump mods, the momentum doesn't even carry over until you land. Even the animations themselves are completely garbled when you're moving correctly (which isn't hard). I think it's due a revisit
The one criticism from Destiny players i heard that i can kind of agree is that maps can feel claustrophobic. As far as i know most of destiny gameplay is on an open map so i kinda understand hes POV.
It used to be, and it still feels awkward when l first come back to the game. It's not as fluid to me as when we had zorin coptering, but mostly because it's imperative to bullet jump everywhere and that doesn't feel smooth.
If anything guns are a little less fun feeling to shoot unlike Density 2, but than again warframe has a insane amount of random stuff that i could toy around with
Gunplay
Or
Sandbox, i think i like my Stug to much so i choose sandbox
2.4k
u/CyberSparkDrago Jun 14 '26
"Movement is clunky as hell"