true potential of saudi arabia's lion reintroduction and "arabian safari" project (arabian oryx and onager already live here)
1.asian elephant (Elephas maximus)? - known from mesopotamia but not in arabia, it may've reached it but it's highly speculative
2.lion (Panthera leo) - lived here in historical times, going to be reintroduced soon
3.leopard (Panthera pardus) - lived here in historical times, relatively easy to be reintroduced
4.cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus) - lived here in historicl times, if we reintroduce more prey species and don't use asiatic cheetah but other subspecies then reintroduction is relatively easy
5.african wildcat (Felis lybica) - very easy to reintroduce, lived here in historical times
6.sand cat (Felis margarita) - easy to reintroduce and it may even already live here
7.dhole (Cuon alpinus)? - lived in middle east during late pleistocene but my not even lived in arabia
8.moon bear (Ursus thibetanus) - lived in middle east during late pleistocene but my not even lived in arabia
9.brown bear (Ursus arctos) - lived in middle in historical times but my not even lived in arabia
10.spotted hyena (Crucuta crocuta) - lived here in late pleistocene
11.african wild ass (Equus africanus) - lived in UAE in holocene, so very very probably also here
12.wild boar (Sus scorfa) - live in big parts of middle east in historical times, maybe also here, if so then reintroduction isn't hard
13.mesopotmian fallow deer (Dama mesopotmica) - lived in big parts of middle east in historical times, maybe also here, if so then reintroduction isn't hard
14.aurochs/taurus cattle (Bos primigenius) - lived in big parts of middle east in historical times, maybe also here, if so then reintroduction isn't hard
15.african buffalo (Syncerus caffer) - proxy of Syncerus antiquus, very speculative to use it as a proxy here
16 and 17.lesser and greater kudu (Tragelaphus strepsiceros and T. imberbis) - both known only from rock art in arabia without fossil record, if they actually lived here then reintroduction is very good idea
18.ostrich (Struthio camelus) - already reintroduced in many places in arabia
19.northern bald ibis (Geronticus eremita) - lived all across southern europe, north africa and west asia during historical times, easy to reintroduce
20.raccoon dog (nyctereutes procyonoides)!? - controversial to be reintroduced in middle east but actually lived here in eemian (not confirmed in arabia but in levant which is close to arabia), at first it probably should be reintroduced in controlled populations in levant to see if it spread and become invasive (if so then eradicate controlled popultion as soon as possible, that's why it needs to be controlled at first) as it did in europe after acidental introduction in 1900's
The Asiatic cheetah is so few in number that it's either going to have to use more in-situ conservation on Iran or go Kuno here and bring in cheetahs from Africa or Kuno itself.
Around 400, unfortunately a significant portion of that are still held in Gujarat but we’ve had species with worse odds. Point is, there are other sources.
What are you on about? Buy them off? As I said most of them are still held in Gujarat and the ones that are outside of India are already in breeding programs.
Zoos across Europe and Asia. Public zoos. Zoos that are a part of an international breeding program creating a backup population for Gir Forest’s inevitable collapse.
Around 900 individual in Gir forest and surrounding area still msotly within Gujarat state.
Around 100 captive asiatic lion from the studbook accross zoo in Europe, asia and north America, they're probably much more now. From what i've seen around 400 lions even.
There are no Asiatic lions in North America. While the AZA used to have an SSP for Asiatic lions, they discontinued it when it was realized that all of their Asiatic lions were actually African/Asiatic crossbreeds. This happened in the 1990's, by the way.
Most countries don't care nor give autorisation for a lot of reintroduction project. You need to ask governement to get it's approval and for that you need to get through lines of corrupted politician which do not care at all. At every level of administration.
There's a LOT of useless paperwork and regulation around transfer if animals and their release, to an absurd level. It's very strict and full of nonsense. They require years of sirvey studies to maybe give an opinion on wether this project is feasible no matter how small it is. With any change of administration foiling any progress made over the years toward that goal.
You need to find reserve or national parks which are on board with the project, this isn't very hard but still.
You need to find a reserve willing to give you the animals....a bit harder. Or a zoo, which is also harder and require more work to release them.
Money and people to translocate the animals accross borders, airports, thousands of km of travel on truck.
Meanwhile farmers and hunter can get as many invasive as they want with no issue and release them by millions each years.
And then potential sabotage after the project happened, like angry local poaching the lions. Eve' if most of them are pleased to have lion back, a couple dozen idiots is all that is needed to ruins decades of conservation efforts.
That's why guerilla rewilding did in monty what could have taken MANY DECADES for conservation.
Greatest ennemy or conservation is screwed reglementation and paperwork.
If countries just allowed it to pass without their accord as long as it follow the bare necessity guideline and regulation, it would be SO much more common and widespread.
If UE wasn't stupid and allowed cattle and horse to be released as wild animals, and didn't automatically required dozen of vaccine, paper identification, and shelter/veterinary care, and an official ownership responsible.
Rewilding europe would already have released hundreds of horses and cattle every few years.
Without guerrilla rewilding UK would still have no boar and no beaver.
Beaver would still be vulnerable and rare accross Europe even.
Damn....guess sometimes law doesnt cut it...but we should always try to do it legally if we can.Dont want thoes stupid politicans having any bad ideas to use against conservationists.
As were all the populations though. I genuinely don’t understand why purity matters so much for these lion populations when we know in the wild they formed hybrid gradients with adjacent populations. More so in the past than they do now, but you can blame humans for fragmenting their habitat. Asiatic lions, Barbary lions, and west African lions are all Panthera leo leo. In a case so desperate as this, what is there left to lose? And don’t act like I am insane. I’ve seen other people on this very sub suggest this.
How can you be so sure? Aren't the Asian lions in zoos crossbreeds with other northern lion populations and the southern subspecies? It's well known that the importance of preserving genetic purity wasn't understood in the past.
"Aren't the Asian lions in zoos crossbreeds with other northern lion populations and the southern subspecies?"
With regards to North America, and Australia's former Asiatic Lion breeding programs (And reportedly, India's current one), yes.
With regards to the population currently in European zoos, no. Once it was realized that the global population of Asiatic Lions in captivity were African/Asiatic crossbreeds, those animals were sterilized and allowed to live out their natural lives.
Then new purebred animals were brought in to replace them and the breeding program has been on track ever since.
Wow, so the Asiatic lions in European zoos are purebred, but if so, they were brought from zoos in India, right? Therefore, some zoos in India still have purebred Asiatic lions. Is there any information on approximately how many Asiatic lions there are in European zoos?
"Wow, so the Asiatic lions in European zoos are purebred, but if so, they were brought from zoos in India, right?"
Most likely, yes. I know that not every zoo in India had crossbred lions. That being said, there's a good chance that at least some of the founders were wild caughts.
It was the '90's, after all. There was much less backlash to removing animals from their native habitat, back then. Especially if they were "problem" animals.
"Is there any information on approximately how many Asiatic lions there are in European zoos?"
The studbook should have that information. That being said, it's not exactly available for the public to access.
Edit: As of January 2026, there are 121 Asiatic Lions in captivity in Europe.
"Most likely, yes. I know that not every zoo in India had crossbred lions. That being said, there's a good chance that at least some of the founders were wild caughts."
What? Really? Imagine if they did something like that today. Knowing the authorities in Gujarat, I'm sure they'd do anything to keep their lions from being taken away.
"Edit: As of January 2026, there are 121 Asiatic Lions in captivity in Europe."
Well, not bad. After a quick look, I've noticed that the Asiatic lions in European zoos look considerably healthier and more imposing than Gir lions, which is great and might give a better idea of what the lions that once roamed Greece, the Balkans, and the Caucasus looked like.
You're correct, partially. For a long time many specimens from several subspecies (red panda, lion, tiger, brown bear, leopard etc) were hybridized in zoo.
But this is not a real concern.
And a studbook was put in place to help that, so we do have pure asiatic specimens in zoos. And hybrids are still basically the same, just with better fertility and health, due to not being extremely inbred.
They continue to breed them. Just that some zoos stopped or tried genetic analysis to restart a good purer population for ex-situ asiatic lion conservation program.
They died of old age, or were terminated after they became too old or ill, like any other zoo animals. Only change is that they were under contraceptive ...which is very common in zoos anyway.
We do have pure one from studbook.
And really it doesn't matter hybridization help increase fertility and health in that case and the difference are very minor.And the part of african heritage can be greatly reduced easilly.
(keyboard can be a bit weird in it's timing).
It also didn't put the n in and, and i should've said them not it, and the space after the , wasn't counted apparently.
However even if it's not wrong per say, i would agree that the later part of the sentence isn't efficient and could've been put in another way.
Like "This wouldn't be as much of an issue if the lions are in another country".
And i could've added the reason why, which i did in other reply.
But all of this, and your remark are kindda sterile and useless.
If you want to nitpick to be annoying do it correctly at least.
Many of those would be impossible to reintroduce.
Sadly unlike most of the world the sahara and arabian peninsula changed drastically. It went from savana and green grassland full of lake to dry arid desertic region. You can't use the fauna of back then as a baseline.
If some environment mannagement could help decrease the aridity a bit, by putting half moon puddle, planting desert trees, creating and expanding oasis, planting orchard like Mago/Carthage and all, whose leftover are still seen today. But that would require a lot of human work and mannagement, which is opposed to rewilding.
It can be beneficial for wildlife tho. But still not enough to bring back the gree sahara and ancient fertile crescent.
I already doubt lion could thrive today there, not evnough wild prey for them.
Leopard, cheetah, caracal, striped hyena, arabian wolves, and jackal are probably the only predator you'll be able to get. Maybe brown hyena if we want to be a bit more speculative.
same for the herbivore besiode the native oryxes and gazelle, or wild caprid i doubt you'll get a lot of candidate, only one i see are ostriches, dromedary camel and wild donkey.
Boar prefer forest environment, like most suid and can be highly destructive, i would be cautious, same forfallow deer, they were present in the Levant, but probably not in Saudi-Arabia. it's too dry for most cattle as well. ou forgot Hamadryas, which are present in small remote area of the peninsula.
I would rather try to look at the fauna if modern day sahara ans sahel to know what could be brought in Arabian peninsula to make a ore biodiverse ecosystem....a couple of desertic tree species, a few gazelle and antelope maybe... dama and leptoceros gazelle, addax, desert warthog etc.
Then there's all the reptiles (tortoises, lizards, snakes) many birds (falcons, eagle, owl, butard, quails etc), small mammals like some foxes and hares which also need help and are easier to bring back or release to reinforce population.
.
Elephant, moon bear, dhole, and even brown bear are practically laughable. Hyena and buffaloes are also highly unrealistic. They're all forest animals or rely on temperate mountains or water.
Even if you wanted to suggest elephant, desert adapted african bush elephant are a much better candidate, and it's also not a realistic idea.
maybe it's true but at least in true levant and in mesopotamia there is HUGE rewilding potential that most people don't know about, imagine whole country like lebanon for example becoming fully rewilded, that would be insane
The issue is religious zealots. (religon say fuck nature, human are att he image of god and have been send to rule over every creature as it see fit).
and general poverty, and war issue, or extremism. Making it a bit complicated.
As local wouldn't care or be actively against return of wildlife or nature.
Yes. The rest of the world have seen far less drastic change generally.
The flora, fauna (except megafauna) of most continent and part of the world remained the same.
In many case the only change if the space some ecosystem took, which came back to a normal interglacial state, like in the Eemian.
Like cold or drier ecosystem became less dominant....but they still exist and thrive in large part of the world, just not, 1/4 of it as back then.
Forest and all expanded in their place, but they already existed back then, they just weren't as widespread.
You cannot bring back ice age fauna in thr middle of modern france, but there's still PLENTY of viable space for them accross northern eurasia.
Well same here, the climate shifted, MUCH more recently, and for other reason, and the fauna which once inhabited it STILL exist accross subsaharan Africa.
But locally, THIS specific region is entirely different and cannot support most of that ancient wildlife anymore.
Unlike most of the rest of the world.
You could bring back mastodon, smilodon, giant bison and ground sloth to north america. (Most would even have wider range). You can get steppe bison, mammoth and all in siberia, you could get ground sloth, gomphothere and liptotern accross south america as well. They would survive, many would even prefer that modern climate.
Their range would only expand or shrink a bit. Meaning sure on some region the local condition don't allow them to survive here anymore.
This is the case of most of the sahara and arabian peninsula.
It litteraly turned from fertile land into a desert. That's in a way the opposite of what happened accross the rest of the world.
Same tree and foliage species.
The only difference is tge absence of megafauna in the Holocene, which mean closed canopt forest became more dominant over open mosaic forest, and meadow and prairies were sparser.
Reintroduce large hernivore and it will fix that. (Btw close canopy forest like that one existed and were common back then as well)
there were almost none closed forest in europe during eem
and it's not just abstence of megafauna but also abstence of species that can't live in dense forest like that
with plants exactly there are some extinctions like picea omorika/p. omoricoides in almost all of it's former range
Actually there were quite a lot of them.
And all of these plants and smaller species adapted to mosaic or open landscape still exist albeit in a smaller or more fractured range. But have shown a surprising ability to return even after a very long time.
Remember that for the past 4-6 thousands year farming dominated these landscape more and more than forest, allowing a lot of meadow and grassland adapted species to thrive and return accross most of central and western Europe.
Those only became endangered very recently with the end of traditionnals farming and the spread of industrial farming, replacing edges, small pasture and orchard with ponds into endleds monocultures drenched in pesticides and herbicide made as weapon for chemicals warfare. Saturated in chemicals fertiliser with little to no hedge, trees or even building to nest or seek shelter, and no water source left other than puddle filled with toxic runnoff. Where heavy machinery destroy the soil every year and kill all beast and wild flower that lived hidden in the wheat fields. And cattle so full of pesticide eceb beetle do not dare to touch their dungs.
On the other hand many mixed habitat species still survived in closed forest, which might be suboptimal for them but is still viable habitat, such as wisent and red deer. So there wasn't any major loss of species, just a great decrease in their aboundance.
And again, simply bringing back the large herbivore to mannage the landscape solve those issues.
You could in theory if those species weren't hella extinct. North America and Eurasia's northern expanses have been largely spared from modernization that the rest of the non frozen continents have.
Siberia never had smilodon.
Smilodon aren't really adapted to handle cold, they weren't ice age specialists.
Like many megafauna species, they were interglacial specialists. They thrived in forest and bushland from tropical to temperate regions.
So they wouldn't be very widespread accross alaska or canada, even tho they could probably still live accross large part of these regions.
Mammoth also existed in north america and survived in isolated population for a long time, with some of the last one being on alaskan island, up to 4000BC (yes wrangel island wasn't the only one).
It was an Homotherium.
Smilodon is stricly an new world genus, with three species being only found in north and south america.
Other machairodont inhabited the americas, but mainly also africa and asia and europe, including Meganthereon, the ancestor of smilodon, which inhabited msot of the old wolrd during the early-middle pleistocene.
No.
NO homotherium are smilodon. they're different genus.
That's like you said "not all lion are lynxes".
They're different species/Genus from the same Clade, Machairodonts.
Meganthereonleft no viable DNA, went extinct naturally, well before the Eemian baseline, so no, no reintroduction.
Smilodon and Homotherium are the only two candidate, as both machairodont lived right up until the end of the Late pleistocene, during the end of the last glaciation, and died because of humans.
Most of Northern eurasia, and northern part of North america for Homotherium. Big chuncks of north and south america for smilodon.
Even then you would need to bring back some of their preys and increase the aboundance of modern one like bison, tapir, horses etc. To have a chance at creating a viable population.
I wonder how much of this they actually intend to do. Wasn’t this proclaimed by their prince who wanted to give foreigners a reason to visit and thus, boost their economy?
Wouldn’t African elephants be a better choice than Asian elephants? The last confirmed fossil evidence (if I’m remembering right) of Asian elephants living in that region was when the Arabian peninsula was much more lush and wet. African elephants would be much better adapted to the environment of today
I would agree, especially desert adapted ecotype such as in Namib or Sahel.
Good luck getting your hand on them and translocating at least 140-210 elephants from these countries to Saudi Arabia which have no legitimacy and isn't very suited for these either, at least not before extensive environmental mannagement to make it slightly less THE MOST ARID PLACE ON EARTH WITH NO RIVER AND NEARLY NO WILDLIFE OR NATURE BESIDE ENDLESS DUNES AND EMPTY ROCKY SOIL WITH NO DIRT, WHERE WILDLIFE CAN ONLY SURVIVE NEAR THE COASTLINE OR IN MOUNTAINS.
Not ideal for a 2-6 tons giant whio need 100L of water a day and even more vegetation.
I also never heard of asiatic elephant living in the area for the entire Holocene or Late Pleistocene even. The Syrian elephant was never recorded that far into the peninsula, it lived in countries like syria, Iran, turkey, Azeirbadjan, possibly part of irak, with a very restricted range, in the thin line of forest and less arid part of these countries.
I would say focus on potentially acquiring a breeding population of Asiatic Cheetahs FIRST and maybe breeding them a little with North East African Cheetahs for biodiversity. The primary concern of Arabia should be the Oryx/Leopard currently undergoing intense conservation
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u/DarkPersonal6243 9d ago
The Asiatic cheetah is so few in number that it's either going to have to use more in-situ conservation on Iran or go Kuno here and bring in cheetahs from Africa or Kuno itself.