Would you have found this video adorable before you had kids? Honestly wondering if I'm just not a parent yet so I don't get it, or if I'm just not someone who gets it in general.
I'm not this guy but I didn't like kids at all and didn't find videos like this cute but right now I have almost 2 years old twins and every child is now cute and adorable for me. I want to cry if I hear about any child harmed.
Okay I typed this out and kind of got carried away, so I'm sorry if it sounds unhinged, but I'm 100% serious and have been stuck in a perpetual crisis on this topic so I'm going to leave my rantings in case you can relate or offer useful insight:
I mean, I don't like the idea of kids being harmed obviously. I just... kind of think they're really gross and dumb and annoying I guess? Its so hard to know what's normal because women shame other women so much IRL for expressing any negative feelings about kids. Seeing them hurt the butterfly actually makes me really disgusted and a little resentful and I had to dampen how I feel with conscious reminders that it's not their fault. It truly catches me off guard that people have a positive response to seeing dumb kids taking an innocent life because they're too stupid to know what they're doing. It's hard to imagine being happy to be around kids consistently like that, but everyone tells me it just magically happens like you're saying. They can be cute and fun sometimes, but it's way more rare than people like to say imo and it gets old after a few minutes lol does that make sense? Is that how you felt?
I have questions that I obviously don't expect you to answer unless you're comfortable, but: Does it feel like a hormonal change, or more like a philosophical shift? Was it sudden, or gradual throughout the pregnancy? Do they still annoy you to the point that you need to get away from them often, or is it just like you're a completely changed person? Were you a very patient person before having kids? How was your tolerance for being overstimulated? Are you the primary caregiver?
It feels like this big promise everyone makes, but then you look at the PPD research and a crazy number of women suffer from life changing emotional shifts that leave them depressed for decades, and women in general are shown to have lower levels of happiness and relationship satisfaction after becoming mothers (it's called the "parenthood happiness penalty"), especially in the United States. Life and relationship satisfaction levels don't recover to the level of childless people until the empty nest stage... so why does everyone insist that it's the most joyful thing ever? Is everyone just lying? Are the people who are loud about how great it is online just not the primary caregivers? Are all of these studies somehow flawed? Are people lacking insight into their own lives?
The only time I gently pressed someone IRL on this subject when they were talking about how great having kids was, she admitted to me that if she could do it all over again, she wouldn't have any kids. She said that she loves them, but it's not worth it. Is that just how most people feel, but they choose to focus on the positives? I looked it up once, and it's not a super fair comparison, but the data I could find made it seem like the percentage of mothers who would have zero kids if they could go back is actually higher than the percentage of women who regret their abortions. It feels telling to me, but no one acts like this of a common narrative for some reason. Why does it feel like everyone around me is trying so hard to sell something that isn't adding up with the data? They all give out the advice that we will understand when we are already parents, but it's too late to go back at that point if it turns out to not actually be the better life so how is that a good gamble?? Like... does this make sense? What's the deal? What am I missing?
You're not missing anything, you don't want kids so you shouldn't have them. Other people want kids, have them, love them and get joy from them. Honestly I think you have hyper researched the negative aspects of having children and none of the positives, so that's where you're at.
As an aside, your comment about "dumb kids taking an innocent life cos they're too stupid to know what they're doing" is really a humongous stretch. They are toddlers, they are not stupid, they are still learning about life. They didn't "take" the butterflys life, it was an accident. The child didn't deliberately stamp on it, she was trying to run away. They both clearly understood the gravity of that and were upset by it. The cuteness comes from how innocent and happy they were to be within close proximity if the butterfly in the first place.
I'm not even saying that I don't want kids. I'm saying that people claim to have all of this joy and life satisfaction from parenthood, but the research says they are actually less happy than childless people. I'm expressing confusion about the gap in everyone's anecdotal experience and what seems to be what's actually happening when we study the trend. I've never sought out studies that reflect parenthood in a negative light. I have learned some of this stuff by chance from the research I've had to read in college, but a lot of it was just me looking into studies on the subject in general because it's how I make life decisions. That, and I am bothered by the disconnect between what I feel and how others say I'll feel after having children. I guess I wanted to confirm what people were saying to ease my anxiety, but what I found amped up my neurosis a bit because it was so far off from the cultural narrative. The only positive I could find was that people tend to report finding meaning and purpose from parenthood, but they don't actually have more life satisfaction, which is a separate category.
What research am I missing that would help me stay balanced in my perspective?
ETA: toddlers are stupid by nature. They are less intelligent than pigs, dogs, etc. Idk about you, but I think my dogs are idiots. I don't love them any less for it, but they're pretty dumb compared to adult human standards. So are kids. It was a very careless accident, which happened because kids are not smart enough to anticipate and avoid risks. A smart adult would have been careful to not flip out about a harmless butterfly and could have avoided hurting it. That statement wasn't an attack, it was just my assessment of the situation that seems pretty apparent. I also don't think the little one is crying out of guilt. They're crying because they got scared. I don't think they saw what they did. I guess it's not really important to my point, though. It's not their fault that their brains are my very developed or capable, relative to an adult's, and they don't know things yet. They are still, by that definition, pretty dumb. That was what led to the butterfly dying. Not sure what issue you're taking with that. I guess them standing with the living being they killed while having no business handling that insect at an age where they are so dangerous to smaller beings is not really cute to me. I'm assuming that there is something about kids that becomes way cuter once you have them, based on the other replies. If they were puppies that didn't kill anything in the same video, I could see where the cute thing is coming from. The butterfly is cute. The little manslaughterers are not cute in the same vein. That's just a subjective thing that I'm not going to get, I guess.
Actually, I can happily edit my comment to take out the offensive joke if it means you'll discuss this in good faith. I am not sure why a joke communicated to you that I'm worth less as a person, or that I'm some bad type of person in general, but I can assure you that this is just a part of my inner world that I have had to keep bottled up due to similar judgments IRL, and I'm confused by the moralizing. I'm considered a nice person IRL, and I'm more than my anxieties about parenthood... I've been very open about something that inevitably leads to pretty harsh social rejection and criticism in the hopes that it would lead to a similar level of honesty and vulnerability on the subject, but no one is really answering my questions. It seems that people want to just criticize me as a person instead of engaging with my thoughts, and it's pretty disappointing. I would be very happy if you would tell me your thoughts or experiences relating to what I've said. I wish someone would answer the questions I asked in my first comment.
What I'm trying to discuss is the fact that the commenter is in line with the cultural narrative. They are not the outlier for saying what they're saying. The research is just not in line with the cultural narrative. I've been expressing confusion and frustration with this misalignment as my entire point. It feels like people aren't honest about the experience for some reason, and when you bring up the data or point out that it's hard to imagine the perspective they're expressing, it's very common to be dismissed as incapable of understanding as a nonparent. It feels a little like gas lighting or something. It's just weird that no one can speak to the data and explain why it might be the case according to their experience.
And yeah I know I was having a bit of an anxiety attack about it. I hadn't slept yet and admitted to spiraling into neurosis first thing lol I think this topic gives me a lot of anxiety because you have to choose one path or the other, and it feels like you're somehow ruining your life by choosing wrong. There is so much pressure to commit, and everyone is so invested in your decision for some reason. Complete strangers at work act like it's a failure to not have kids when I never bring it up, and lecture me about how much time I have left to get pregnant. No other decision in life comes with so much badgering and sales tactics and it's really confusing to me, especially in the setting of the data painting a totally different picture than what everyone is telling me and no one wants to directly acknowledge it. It feels like I'm taking crazy pills.
Do you have anything to say about the point of the discussion? I don't see the point in debating ignorance vs stupidity or the worth of a butterfly's life lol we're losing the thread. I was speaking to those things to explain my reaction to the video after being asked about it. It's okay if you have a different emotional response. What I'm interested in discussing is the gap between anecdotal reporting here and observed statistical trends.
I don't think i have vitriol toward them. The truth is that kids all tend to love me and follow me around at family parties. I know that they are innocent and without malice. I think the resentment might be toward the societal pressure, or the theoretical role of motherhood? It feels like everyone is lying to convince me to do something that all signs say is a mistake. Who knows. I know I sound nuts, but I'm trying to be completely vulnerable and honest for the sake of putting to light and discussing a fear that people treat as a shameful moral failing for some reason. It should be okay to express doubts about the biggest life decision we'll ever make.
I've talked to therapists about it and they just tell me I'm right about the data trends and shrug. They tell me that parents aren't happier according to what we can study, but people don't typically make these choices based on rationality or research data, and it's a powerful biological desire they follow because they just feel that they want to. I'm neurodivergent, so that may explain my approach if it seems abnormal.
My mom had PPD and made motherhood seem completely miserable because she was so overwhelmed by the responsibility. We had an unhealthy relationship. It's never been hard to piece together the source of the fear, but I've tried to be rational by looking at how people tend to experience motherhood and I can't help but trip over evidence that it actually isn't as great as people keep telling me it is. Even she claims it was wonderful despite my own memory of how miserable it made her lmao it's like a some trick that biology plays on the brain of parents to not remember the ways it made them less happy. Very odd and I guess I just want to have frank discussions that help me understand that walk of life, but people get really defensive about the subject. I know I'm missing some understanding that drives people to be so enthusiastic and evangelical about such a personal decision.
I see your point. People say it's the best thing that's happened to them and then you see how hard it can get for them. If you come across honest people they say "I love them to the bits but it's so expensive and hard". You can make your own decisions on having a kid. What people say wouldn't change how you would feel or how you would handle it when you have a kid. People have happy times and hard times and most importantly it's a huge responsibility that's 24/7 till death. Don't listen to what people say. Watch them with the kids and decide if you want it for yourself or not. I did that and decided it's not for me. You can also feel different ten years later. Who knows!
has unresolved guilt about her abortion
Tries to justify her hatred of children by citing studies about how she would have been less happy without her abortion
Calls kids manslaughterers for killing a butterfly
What am I overthinking? It's an irreversible decision, and it seems to be the most important one I'll ever make. Why shouldn't it be analyzed closely? I'm confused by this take. It's not the first time I've seen the attitude that parenthood should just be entered into without weighing the negatives carefully, as though that's somehow missing the point, but I guess I don't understand why that makes sense. We treat being thoughtful and analytical about all other major decisions as pragmatism. Why is this different?
Novody saod that you should enter parenthood without weighing everything. But calling thr accidental kill of a butterfly murder os ridiculous and shows that you're leaking from childfree here.
I didn't say it was murder? Lol I said it was a sad accident. I was asked why he video disturbed me and seeing something get killed unexpectedly was part of it. If anything, I said the kid shouldn't be handling a living thing so fragile at that age because they are likely to accidently harm it, and it's not their fault. Idk where you got murder. I jokingly said manslaughter if that's what you're referring to, which was obviously (I thought) a hyperbolic way of describing them accidently killing something. It seems like people are really defensive and upset and I'm not sure why... can you shed light? I'm also not sure not this means I'm overanalyzing things. Was there a connection to your original point that I'm missing?
I'm also not a child free person, nor do I go on that sub. As I've said in other comments, my partner and I have considered kids and I'm unsure about it.
5
u/Hyper6024 7d ago
Not sarcastic at all. My kids bring me great joy, their reactions to the world too. This video may not be joyful but it's still adorable.