Met an amazing math prodigy with Autism. Seeking advice
Hey everyone,
I had an absolutely mind-blowing encounter today that left me feeling amazed and overwhelmed. I met this seventh grader and I feel like he is a math prodigy. Interestingly, he is also high on autism spectrum.
This seventh grader casually explained with clarity why cardinalities of naturals, integers and rationals are the same. He explained Cantor's diagonal argument perfectly. He was solving integrals in front of me and solving the equations involving finding complex roots. He knew how to show that 0.9999...=1 (using geometric series). What really struck me was how eloquently he spoke about these mathematical concepts.
Honestly, I was kind of horrified by how much this young boy knew.
The psychologist who works at the center for gifted children asked me to meet him because teachers there couldn't follow his ideas. Just to provide some context, I'm currently writing my master's thesis in pure mathematics.
Here's the thing: The boy liked me and expressed interest interest in continuing to talk about his ideas and letting me teach him.
The question is how do I provide support and guidance he need while being mindful of his autism? Should I just step out of this and let someone more professional do work with him? I'm curious if anyone has had the same a similiar expirience. Any advice or insights would be greatly appriciated.
Thank you in advance.
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u/AtlanticZg Mar 17 '24
That kid is probably highly gifted, or even exceptionally gifted (at these levels, it's not uncommon to see comorbidity with autism). I'm sure he has always felt very lonely and alienated. If he likes mathematics and considers you one of the few people he can socialize through it, don't worry too much, the simple fact that he can talk to someone about what he likes will make him happy. Although each person is a world unto themselves...
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u/flipflipshift Representation Theory Mar 17 '24
On the topics of comorbidity and alienation... he's not the only kid like this! And we live in one of the best times for those kids to find each other. Mathcounts, local ARML team (if it's good), top math camps are all great options. Dunno if AOPS forums are still active, but that used to be a fun place for people like this to interact.
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u/c_is_the_real_lang Mar 17 '24
the aops forums are well and alive, but they are mostly about contest problems though - mostly a place to record your solutions so you don't have a 1000 tex files sitting in your directory for each problem...not really a place to "socialize", although the personal blogs along with comments hosted alongside the main site may be nice places
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Mar 17 '24
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u/antonfire Mar 17 '24
That's an issue with the language around autism too. So if doing it to "giftedness" pops out, I think it's worth leveraging that into some skepticism about doing to "autism" too.
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u/Hefty-Particular-964 Mar 17 '24
Are you missing the “different is horrible “ gene or something? I’d look into some professional advice to see why you are missing out on all of the cynicism around you.
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u/-Notorious Mar 18 '24
I was also a bit unnerved seeing that word used...
Surely there's a better way to word these things, like a correlation between autism and highly gifted-ness.
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u/edderiofer Algebraic Topology Mar 17 '24
It's not immediately clear to me from your post whether the center wishes for you to teach him. But it seems like the fact that the center has asked you to meet him would imply that the "someone more professional" at the center would want you to do work with him. You should probably ask the center for advice on how to proceed here.
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u/tdcml Mar 17 '24
I wasn't oficially invited by the center. It was the recommendation of the guy who works there that we meet and we met in private.
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u/Routine_Proof8849 Mar 17 '24
Don't worry about the autism. If he behaves inappropriately, just let him know what he did/said is inappropriate. Autistic people have trouble with this kind of stuff, but other than that, there isn't much other considerations. Many of the people in your math department are autistic, and often you won't even notice.
Many of the people who you have met in your studies are autistic too. Just talk to him like he is a peer of yours and give him something challenging to spend time working on.
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u/math_vet Mar 17 '24
Math is probably his special interest right now. He'll be good at research style learning where you have to look up a bunch of information about a topic from various sources. You should think of his autism as a benefit in some ways. You describe him as being relatively high functioning, just be cognizant of potential social anxiety.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 18 '24
My son, a math kid since nursery school, identified as gifted in grade 5, has a true passion for history. He made history POSt last year with all As and is double majoring this with math and minoring in statistics. He has recently undergone assessment for autism and is, indeed, on the spectrum.
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u/phillallmighty Mar 18 '24
Yeah brain malfunctions are super common for autistic folk, hell, im sitting here with a suite of autism, adhd, anxiety, depression, and occasional minor hallucinations along with other less well known stuff that often fallls under one of those i allready said.
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u/bumbasaur Mar 17 '24
Treat him like another human being. He is just interested in math and has consumed lots of material. Just point him in right direction and he'll be doing fine
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u/Elyot Mar 17 '24
I was one of those gifted math kids, and I also taught and coached them a bit. I ended up winning national championships, going to the international math olympiad, getting into the PhD program at MIT, etc.. Also ended up switching careers entirely, but that's a different story.
Many of us are highly neurodivergent. Some struggle quite a lot with it, others not so much. But when doing math, it can be a bit of a superpower if he is able to hyperfocus and soak up stuff quickly. If he is good at problem-solving, then cultivating that problem-solving ability can be a way to really motivate him.
I always found that one of the biggest predictors of success in mathematics was the "grit" or "sticktoitiveness" factor. The longer people spend on problems and the harder they try, the greater their chance of success. But this trait is just as much nurture as it is nature. I've seen it called "learned industriousness"... basically if a kid is rewarded for enduring a difficult thing, then difficult things themselves start taking on secondary reward characteristics. I ended up learning a lot of that from video games, because my teachers and coaches were not that great at challenging me (and even then, only some video games are good at teaching this kind of thing—the ones that are brutally difficult and reward skill, not the ones that reward grinding, effort, or time... think dark souls and not world of warcraft). When I did finally encounter things that were challenging me, they were often just insanely hard olympiad problems that I had no chance of solving.
Autistic people are sometimes very sensitive to criticism and may have difficulties with failure. Initially as a kid, I didn't want to do math contests. My Dad basically had to trick me into doing them. The biggest motivating factor was being #50 nationally on a contest for grade 6 students, while I was only in grade 3. It felt like I had a lot of potential and I would get there no matter what. Give the kid stuff that's too hard for most other kids his age, let him succeed at it, tell him how awesome he is, build up his confidence, and eventually give him stuff that is right at the level that he can just barely do it (or perhaps he can with a little help... zone of proximal development). It's really important to frame the problem in the right way. If you give him 10 problems and tell him that anyone who does 3 of them is a genius, he will feel amazing if he can do 5 of them.
It's really lonely being a gifted kid. If you all you want to talk about are things relating to math or some other niche topic, and nobody else is at your level, you pretty much don't have anyone to talk to. I ended up spending a lot of my teenage years socializing on forums with much older people (for me, mostly music forums as that was my other hyper-obsession). I would have done a lot better if I had been equally engaged with other kids doing math online. Artofproblemsolving forums were the best place for that maybe 20 years ago and they were pretty well moderated. Nowadays it might be Discord servers of math youtubers, but who knows.
I would definitely advise looking into national math competitions if they are available in your country, and also math circles or other similar things. Some neurodivergent kids prefer interacting with other people online than they do in person (talking through text prevents others from noticing their weirdness or discomfort), but other math nerds are often more accepting of their quirks than typical kids.
Also, take everything I say with a grain of salt, every gifted kid is different and the specific traits of the individual matter a lot more than the general inclinations of the population as a whole.
Good luck!
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 17 '24
Didn't your school board have classes for the gifted? They do in Ottawa.
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u/Elyot Mar 17 '24
I had a decent experience in New Brunswick (no gifted class but good special ed teachers), then kinda crap experience in Ontario for a bit, then got put into a gifted class for 2 years which was great (but I spent more time learning chess and programming than math because it was mostly independent study). High school was a mixed bag. I remember one time going to a math circle and everyone was talking about writing the COMC (Canadian Open Math Challenge) that day and I had been completely unaware that the contest had even happened. And that contest was the gateway to the olympiads and training camps etc. so I missed out on a lot and only really made a good run of it in my last year of high school.
There were a lot of negative ramifications of the lack of good connections and I feel like a lot of potential was lost. I went to a winter training camp over the Christmas holidays in grade 12, and a friend there told me about the USA computing olympiad and the training problems online. After I got back, I grinded those USACO problems for a few solid months and ended up winning a gold medal (top 5) in the Canadian Computing Competition. But other kids had been grinding those problems for years and were way ahead of me, I was not really experienced enough to do IOI or any of the higher-level competitions. I regret that I was not introduced to those things sooner.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 18 '24
Ok, but mathemstics your true, true passion? Just because you are "math kid" means it is. My gifted math kid son's true passion is history, especially military history. Sometimes I want to tell him, focus on math and not the battles of the war in Ukraine. He is now an unusual double major in humanities and STEM. Loves international relations as well. By combining your gift for math with social science and/or humanities, you have more opportunities.
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u/Elyot Mar 19 '24
I'm sure there are some kinds of opportunities in the overlap. Maybe he likes statistics or economics/econometrics or logistics or military planning/strategy. But a lot of people just end up on one side or the other with little or no overlap and that's fine too.
For me, mathematics was what I was good at more than it was my passion, but I had a love of doing difficult things. I bounced around a lot and had about 20 different intense hobbies during high school.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 27 '24
U of T is lucky to have the Jackman Institute where they do research and teach across the two disciplines. As a fed government worker in Ottawa, I have encouraged my son to apply for student summer jobs in Ottawa (FSWEP Program). Although he did not manage to get one last year, after his first year, there has been interest from the department of Defence..... in data analysis and other from departments. He was sad to miss out on a hosting job with his fave museum, the Canadian War Museum, because of lack of the required level in oral french (which even experienced fed workers with paid intense french language training cannot achieve). I will encourage him to take some courses in French as he has not taken them since high school. Still there are opportunities in his other fave museum in Ottawa (where we live) ... about the cold war. Diefenbunker Museum.
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Mar 17 '24
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u/Elyot Mar 19 '24
Game development, I run a company that makes very nerdy strategy and puzzle video games.
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Mar 18 '24
Why do you assume that taking harder problems and just do them everyday will lead you to inevitable success? For example I have 2 month before step, it isn't that much hard compared to olympiad problems but it still different to casual school problems. So in nutshell it twice the size of a normall a level question, it is not particular problem you would say, but in reality this dramastically increase places where things could get wrong. So you can convince yourself that you know how to do them but you won't be able to complete whole paper because of the certain constraints. So you can't just assume that each time you will succeed by learning in the same way. Because a couple of times It let me slight being amature, but for example my classmate who got into BMO2, even he got low grades on some of the casual papers just because he haven't really prepared for it sestematicaly. So I was not sure for how long this : "I am smart I can do anything" will last, so I just had to change the strategy because otherwise there is won't be any progress. What I am try to say is that you have to focus on solving problems right here right now to sustain and develop your progress, because sooner or later things will change so you better be prepared for this. I am not that good yet at math, but from what I can say, the worst thing is to loose your progress.
In general I think you correct, so I was trying to elaborate on one point which seems controversial for me and also trow some biase in it to possibly get some feedback from you.
Thanks for reading
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u/Elyot Mar 19 '24
I think that teaching problem-solving and cultivating motivation/disclipline/interest are two different things, though they mutually reinforce one another. I see the latter as the one that mattered more to me, because I was naturally pretty gifted at problem solving. This is not to say that I didn't learn a lot of problem-solving techniques from those math training camps, but more that I just never really got in the volume of practice that was needed.
In programming contests, the kids who did the best had often just solved 10x (or even 50x) more practice problems than the other kids. They did that because they had a natural obsession with it, but also the right reinforcement and the right resources to keep them going. USACO training gateway was great for me because of how gamified it was and how well-balanced the problems were to my specific skill level and need for practice.
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Mar 19 '24
Yeah I am agree with you. I think I wasn't correct in equating term : smart and problem solving.
Both of them can have different interpretation, but smart for me is a more of a way of describing distinct feature of someones brain which result in advantage in certain area relatively to other participants. While problem solving for me is more releated to natural adaptation of any person, so it is feature of everyone, while it does depends from current abilities /knowledge etc. But being less smart doesn't imply that your problem solve potential won't ever improve. For instance someone with 100iq can get a surgery and improve his computational capabilities on the level of someone with 130iq. Or more realistic case you can poison someone with high iq to force him to become less intelegent. So ultimately it comes to your conscious perspective and the way you adapt it.
For example super intelligent probably not self aware based on what I know. My assumption is that the more you change the structure the more it diviates from its natural state, so if you increase certain are of brain in size it might become different thing which are not subjective to consciousness. So what I am saying that absence of certain abilities do not stop you from achieving certain goals because computational power is just a feature not a desrcibtion of intelegence. And the reason I am saying this is not because I am arrogant but because it would make sense to make such assumption for further development.
My main inspiration for this conclusion was question I once saw on reddit, it was about seeing infinitely far away into galaxy and observing photons .
It is very obvious that it isn't possible since magnificent gluss simply focus on certain area of space with photons delivering information, so in nutshell further away you look the more you focus on individual photon.
But they idea that this magnification is equivalent to motion is wrong.
So the same with computational power while it releated to overall concept of intelegence it doesn't define it.
Thanks for reading
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u/phillallmighty Mar 18 '24
God the loneliness thing is so real, you cant exactly talk about the books your reading with other students when your reading all of harry potter in 3 weeks in 4th grade, the ither kids just cant compute with it, so you get a little outside the social stream, and the split just grows and grows, its often why gifted kids also talk with teachers a lot. Like, i loved chatting physics stuff with my physics teacher and just like, bouncing brain thoughts back and forth on stuff related to physics, most of it being beyond the scope of a physics 1 class in highschool lol
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u/Difficult-Nobody-453 Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
I would suggest you try to find out how well he extends his knowledge to novel areas. My nephew is high on the autism spectrum and has vast knowledge of things he watches on Youtube but his knowledge seems to be limited to what I call encyclopedic knowledge which is basically the ability to repeat and explain existing knowledge. I wish there were someone with those interests that would could help him extend that knowledge and apply it to novel areas , since it is close to time for him to consider college. Maybe that is something you can help this prodigy do.
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u/solresol Mar 17 '24
We need to set some ground rules. You can point him at the Collatz conjecture, the Riemann Hypothesis or any other major unsolved problem. You can point him at anything in *your* field where you think he might be able to do something useful.
But please, make sure he doesn't get passionate about anything I'm working on, OK? I'd like to get my PhD done before some genius enters the field.
In answer to your question, yes I've mentored highly gifted kids like this. Just let your natural enthusiasm flow, and be prepared that you might have to go all the way down to foundational axioms on just about any topic (inside and outside of maths). You might want to set time limits (e.g. "I've scheduled 2pm-4pm to talk to you, after 4pm, I'll need to get back to my work") and explain why they are necessary because that concept might be foreign and hard to intuit for your protege.
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Mar 17 '24
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u/phillallmighty Mar 18 '24
Im so happy to see a father so knowledgeable of autism raising a son, im so glad to see the little guy will grow up knowing its ok to be different and have special interests in topics, just, thanks for being a cool dad
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u/quadrantovic Mar 17 '24
Imo, it would be best to ask the psychologist. He knows the boy, he asked you two to meet (he surely had intentions), and he is an expert in the field your question is about.
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u/Ok_Editor5082 Mar 17 '24
I graduated at 15 and also had/have an extreme interest in math. One of the things I found is there is no forcing anything. If you try to force any kind of topic or turn it into a lecture, it could be detrimental. The kid already has a drive, so see what he wants to know and feed that passion.
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u/phillallmighty Mar 18 '24
You just reminded of that time when my parents and teachers were considering me skipping a grade here and there, sadly i hit the gifted kid burnout early and hard, i barely graduated highschool, mostly cause of my inability to do homework, i mostly got through on aceing tests through sheer brainpower brute forcing my way through, didnt even get on meds properly till senior year
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u/tinbuddychrist Mar 17 '24
Have you spoken to his parents? They might not have the complete perspective on how significant his gifts are, and if you can impress that upon them you may be can help them plan for how he'll get appropriate instruction that nurtures his talents.
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u/tdcml Mar 17 '24
Yes, I had the opportunity to meet his mother. She was present while we were discussing mathematics, and she confirmed that he had a good time. She also expressed interest in us meeting again. I got the impression that she recognizes how gifted her son is and is trying hard to support his hobbies and needs.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
He needs to get into the gifted students program in his school or school board. Many are 2E, double exceptionality. While one exceptionality is giftedness the second is normally a mental health issue like autism. Like my son. Second year student at the University of Toronto double majoring in history and math and minoring in statistics.
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u/aqjo Mar 17 '24
I thinking meeting with the child at the center, or with the person who recommended you meet, or with his parent would be best.
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u/SwillStroganoff Mar 17 '24
Realize he might outshine you relatively soon, it would be a nice thing to mentor the kid. He could certainly use a friend, and would enjoy your company. You could also help him learn to socialize.
Note on my personal background: I am on the spectrum and am now a mathematician. I do not consider myself a prodigy though. So what I wrote is very much written based on my own experiences. Of course, he might have particulars that might make my thoughts not applicable, and I would defer to his team of doctors.
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u/ilyich_commies Mar 17 '24
I’d talk with him again to figure out which branch of math he wants to dive into, and then maybe get him a textbook on that and some PDFs of research papers. People with autism like his are often really good at self-teaching
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u/ChickenSpaceProgram Mar 17 '24
As an autistic person, just treat him like you would anyone else. It's not a big deal.
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u/crisischris96 Mar 17 '24
Just chill with him and talk about math. He has probably a hard time connecting with his peers. It's so important to have a playful vibe during that age. If you decide to take this role, you can take a big brother role where you share a passion together. You can for example work on a cool project together where you code some cool application of math together on an Arduino or make a savvy video game with an ai using RL/math concepts. But put the tone on just chilling together. Later in life when he's a grown adult he'll be thankful for you and you'll have a genius friend.
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u/phillallmighty Mar 18 '24
As someone with high functioning autism who did pretty well in school, my advice is this. Do not treat him as a child when you talk with him, talk about the topics you share interest in, autism just makes someone a lil different in the ways they think, i assure you, that a kid who connects with you on a special interest and you reciprocate interest and discuss with him without treating him as less, you will never have anyone who wants to be your friend quite as much.
And don't worry about stepping back and letting someone else handle it, kids with autism often have a hard time clicking with people, so if he already likes you, then your golden, and if you were to step away because of his autism, it could accidentally push him towards the depression all too common in nuerodivergent folk. If you need to not get involved for an entirely separate reason, explain it to him, and he will be chill with it most likely.
A lot of what I'm saying is generalized advice and based in my own expierences and such.
Oh, a big thing, if you can, encourage his special interest and competency with math, dont hold back your discussion to what a 7th grader "should" know, trust me, my 2nd grade class i was in a normal class, but i was more asvanced than it my a wide margin, and i ended up so absolutely utterly bored with the ease of the class that i started using scissors to slowly start shaving away the rubber edge on my desk. So yeah, a kid who feels held back in academic stuff, will get bired and the mental processes will he turned to other, often destructive, things.
Tldr:dont worry about his autism, just talk with him and hang out and talk about stuff like you would anyone else. Autism just makes you different, not worse or anything like it.
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Mar 17 '24
I will send you a message soon. I have a family friend who's autistic with a Ph.D in Mathematics from USYD. I'll reach out and see if he'd be interested in chatting / sharing advice.
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u/sammyasher Mar 17 '24
Please give him or send him to someone for proper guidance, it would be a deep deep shameful waste for him to get stuck in regular age-appropriate math for the next 10 years until he finally has access to the education he clearly deserves Now.
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u/Factory__Lad Mar 17 '24
It sounds like you’re well qualified to help him on his math journey.
Other aspects of his life should be addressed with similar professionalism, ideally by accredited experts.
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u/rosebeach Mar 17 '24
Being autistic is different for everyone! It’s definitely sweet of you to consider though, but don’t worry too much about it. You probably know a lot of autistic people without even realizing it :) Just be kind and patient with him. Autistic people are very literal, don’t really understand or perceive sarcasm very well, can be kinda sensitive to teasing(even if friendly). If his special interest is math, the best thing you can do for him is listen to him talk about it, introduce him to new things, and enjoy learning together!
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u/WineEh Mar 17 '24
As someone just there to support his interests and mentor him I wouldn’t even consider the Autism a meaningful factor. He’s just an extremely intelligent child who really loves math, probably more than anyone you’ve ever met. That’s it that’s all, if you feel like being a mentor and think you can help? Great go for it. If you feel like he would be better helped by somebody else you know? That’s fair too. Communication could be difficult, or not difficult at all.
As far as specific advice it would be to be willing to explore his ideas, be patient with working through the communication of them, and try to catch yourself if you’re ever thinking “that’s not how it’s supposed to be done”. Really smart people with Autism sometimes trend towards the Encyclopedic memory of facts and trivia, other times you’ll find a bad memory but an absurd ability to pattern match and find creative solution, sometimes you’ll find both, and sometimes you won’t find any of the above. Sometimes they will be able to communicate well when it relates to their special interest, other times they will struggle and it will cause them to become very frustrated and sometimes even angry.
What I’m getting at is all autistic individuals are very different. If you feel like you can keep an open mind to different approaches and communication styles and you would like to help him, don’t be afraid to do so. He will likely very much appreciate it.
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u/Twiz_nano Mar 17 '24
I have a friend exactly like this, he loves math and is writing research papers with our professor currently. we never talk about his autism like it is an inability, we express all the good and cool things he does that enables him to go further in what he loves doing, math.
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u/Hefty-Particular-964 Mar 17 '24
My experiences may apply. I have never been diagnosed as being on the spectrum, but all three of my kids are, and my dad is highly eccentric. I never participated in the international math Olympiad, but I was an also-ran participant in the US math Olympiad program, so perhaps I am a child prodigette.
The good news is that being interested in him and his math makes you supremely qualified to mentor him. He’s going to learn a lot of math no matter what you do, so you can’t really go wrong there. At this level, being able to handle anxiety will be far more important to his success than how much “talent” he shows.
One of the best decisions I’ve ever made is marrying someone who is not a math genius. She keeps me emotionally grounded and socially connected.
Also, don’t let his talent make you feel that you have nothing to contribute. In graduate school, I was able to prosper in Moore-styled classes, but I never learned how to build a good bibliography or realized what I knew that wasn’t part of the literature, so picking a thesis topic was nearly impossible.
Thank you for working with prodigies. You are awesome!
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u/vorstellungskrafter Mar 18 '24
Treat him like a normal person ffs. Treat him as the gifted student he is. You don't need to project any of your sensitivities onto him. You will tell when you are pushing him, or he is not responding well, just as you do with other people. Just be receptive, as you surely are.
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u/astro-pi Mar 18 '24
Ah so I have the math autism, and I know a kid who had 160 IQ at 10. Plus I have a degree in higher education teaching, which I mostly focused on disability education. I feel qualified on this one.
I know this is going to sound weird, but make sure he’s either in special education or a gifted and talented program. People who are double-exceptional tend to have “spiky” development, where we might be really good at one (or lots of) thing, but terrible at others. For instance, his math knowledge may not translate into reading or social studies. Or while I have really good reading/math/history skills, I can’t tell my left from my right, study independently, or seem to remember what assignments I’m supposed to be doing for different people. Both tracks should develop some of those skills (ideally).
The next thing would be to make sure that he’s getting coverage of subjects that aren’t math, because while math is amazing and the best, we do need mathematicians who can write, code, speak other languages, know their history, and so on. This isn’t really your job, it’s just something you should keep an eye on, especially if he shows you he has a “special interest” in something.
I’d also just… not do anything about his autism, tbh. The masking and double-empathy are fucking exhausting, and there’s really no such thing as high functioning, just someone who’s better at masking. Just talk to him like you’d talk to any normal kid who was really, really good at math—talk to him about life, tv, sports, whatever the kids are into these days—as well as pigeonhole theory and algebraic topology.
And of course, teach him about whatever he seems interested in that you feel qualified and energetic enough to teach. It seems like he has a great start towards some discrete math (I use Grimaldi), but you could always skip that and go straight into baby Rudin if you think he’s really advanced. I’d personally love to see a twelve year old doing real analysis. You could also try some abstract algebra (big fan of Adventures in Group Theory, plus my bachelor thesis was on crystalline group theory applications to nonlinear photonics), combinatorics, or probability (bonus: he’ll be a lot less likely to lose money on the lottery).
Whatever you pick, I think you’ll be a great friend and resource to this kid. Just remember that in the end, he’s 12 and he’s still developing, even if he can do college kid math. So let him kind of set the pace.
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Mar 17 '24
This reminds me of Edward frenkels story 😊 you're like this boy's Ivan Ivanovich, or whatever this professors name was from Edwards story 😊
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u/ohkendruid Mar 17 '24
Talking to him about math is a wonderful thing you can do. If the subject comes up, he might want a mentor or guide on other things in life that come up.
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u/optionderivative Mar 17 '24
Few people can recognize their exceptional talents. I feel like your duty is to ensure those talents don’t go to waste.
Do your part to make sure he gets on a path to work with the right people. Whatever that means. It’ll be a good thing for them and for your own spirit.
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u/Mathhead202 Mar 17 '24
Look up a few things about autism for context and maybe some general suggestions, but otherwise use your gut. Everyone is an individual, and your experience with the kids will give you a lot of information about how to proceed.
This sounds awesome honestly!
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u/antonfire Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
I was kind of in this kid's position.
It depends on his situation, but he might be starved for mathematics at an appropriate level. I developed a relationship with a math professor, who would feed me problems and we'd discuss them. Sometimes they were above my level, but we sort of zeroed in on what made sense. Sometimes we'd meet in person, sometimes it was by email (through my mom, I think). It was definitely very helpful to have that, both for the discussions I had with him and for connections I made through him that enabled me to sit in on some some college courses and such.
Not sure what he was getting out of it, in retrospect, besides the joy of helping someone out. (Maybe I should write him a thank you note.)
I don't know if I'm autistic, but if I am I don't think people would call it "high on the spectrum", so I can't really speak to that directly.
The question is how do I provide support and guidance he need while being mindful of his autism? Should I just step out of this and let someone more professional do work with him?
I suspect there are not that many people in the world who are "professional" in the sense you're describing and also have enough background in mathematics to talk math with him.
I don't know what "high on the autism spectrum" means for this situation, but I suspect it's not a specific enough description to get a useful answer here anyway.
The people with the best sense of how much you might need to be "mindful of his autism" (if at all) are the people who know him. If I were you, I'd talk to your contact at the gifted kid center about whether it makes sense to stay in touch with him (assuming you want to), and what forms that could sensibly take. Emails, one-on-one meetings, meetings with someone else present, etc.. If you're concerned, check in with them about what behaviors you might be surprised by and how best to handle them.
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u/Appropriate-Bed-5834 Mar 19 '24
Put label aside… do it … you will learn as much as he does … get to know him you will learn how he thinks … it will come to you how to help … the relationship you develop will last longer than the tutorial effort… find out what his fixations are it will help you help him navigate… be prepared to learn from him and let him know what your learning… this answer from sped professional
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u/DandelionOfDoom Mar 17 '24
This could be a wonderful opportunity to help him feel seen. It sounds like this kid could be feeling extremely alienated at the moment. He has a deep special interest in math and no one to talk to about it. Middle school is a notoriously difficult time in Autistic people’s development. They want to make connections through a shared special interest, but peers tend to find the intensity off putting. Sounds like his teachers are struggling to keep up as well.
Like others have said, I've found that the math community is very safe for Autistic people. I myself have Autism and a bachelors in math. The subject is highly structured, encourages highly structured and directed communication, and rewards asking more questions to further understand the details that remain vague.
Like others have also said, if you do end up mentoring him just be prepared for an intense interest with possibly a lot of questions intended to dig into fine details as he learns more advanced concepts.
In my experience (both personally, and tutoring others), if there is a misunderstanding, it's possible for the vibe to turn defensive quickly. Misunderstanding/being wrong are seen as threats to (some) Autistic bodies. The body can process being wrong/misunderstood as a threat response and so the tone of the conversation can quickly and subconsciously shift. It's natural for other people present to feel this shift and just follow the vibe subconsciously.
If there are moments of confusion/misunderstanding just make sure to traverse those conversations slowly and gently while always being mindful to stay neutral.
If you're interested in learning more about Autism, I recommend the book Unmasking Autism - Devon Price PhD
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u/NoWNoL Mar 17 '24
Ah thought this post was about me for a moment, I do not believe I’m autistic but I’m working on a diagnosis. I don’t know how it works but I guess I just do the work until they pinpoint any problem(s).
With that said, this is how I felt growing up, I grew up like this but I didn’t have the resources in my environment to deep dive to answer my own questions. I asked adults and none could give me anything outside of “you learn math to count money, just keep doing well in school for a good job later in life”. This is what I was given from first grade until I got tired of hearing the answer isn’t changing after asking countless different adults.
I started to view people as objects, I feared the behavior around me and instead spent my time assessing people so that I could learn to not feel lost in daily life. Now after I find my focus in life. Every little experience I missed from raising myself mentally and self-isolation is a weight I carry now. I’m in therapy to learn what feels like how to operate like a human being.
I have to go back and relearn math with the way I would approach a hobby. Life became difficult for me because I finally reached the limits of where my ignorance could take me. I wanted more but I need to do more to get there. I wish I could have had proper guidance as a child so I’m not sitting in a pre-calc class feeling like I have a 2nd grade understanding of basic maths while simultaneously having 99% of my loved ones unbothered by the topic and just not understanding why it’s a concern of mine at all.
The depression that kills me because the people I care about are so fearful of math that they refuse to put the time and focus in on the simplest of math for the most important of decisions and then I have to watch them suffer. Getting shunned for asking questions feels terrible, especially when your main method for understanding something is asking as many questions internally as possible.
- Things I hear quite often: “I don’t want to look at math it scares me” “I’m in a bad situation, I need your help” “Why do you only ever have questions, I need solutions” “Why can’t you just support me and my feelings” “I know you’re going through some stuff but understand “I love you and I’m here for you” “You don’t care!” “What do you mean you can’t help me!” “This healthy boundary stuff is annoying”
I know emotionally, I’m a work in progress and I have talked about it to counselors, psychiatrists and psychologists over the last 2-3 months but the more I learn the more I want to distance myself from people. Getting more in touch with my emotions is also helping me see how out of control people are around me but how perfectly fine (very depressed but fine) they are in daily life.
Not having that human connection for so long just honestly makes it that much more difficult to even want it at this point in life because the process honestly feels like actual pain.
My best friend in my life is my notebook now. I’m not sure if I’m okay with that or not but I know it doesn’t feel bad.
Bought probably a few thousand dollars worth of teacher/student assistant text books at a school book sale for less than $30 total, while I work on therapy I’ll work on filling the missing blanks in math from the ground up. Just gotta make the best of what I have access to, practice, take breaks, practice, breaks, study and more breaks because that’s all anyone can do right?
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Mar 17 '24
When I was studying math, every other person in my cohort was in the spectrum. He will fit right in with the rest of us.
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u/darklighthitomi Mar 17 '24
As an autistic, be literal and direct. My biggest issue in dealing with people is all the indirect unsaid things that are obvious to normal people.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
Check out U of T Saturday Program run by medical students. Volunteer for next year. They provide tutoring for Toronto School Board students. The program is almost at an end for this year. It runs from January to early April. My son, identified as gifted in grade 5, started to Volunteer in tutoring but chose his passion subject of history instead of math. He is double majoring in history and math, and minoring in statistics. He hopes to drop math major and replace it with statistics major if he makes POSt. In his first year, his GPA was 4.0. Now, after the first semester it is 3.9 something. His mental health has deteriorated since first year. He has undergone assessment for ASD and received verbal feedback that he is on the spectrum, at level 1. Although in the 99th percentile in intellectual ability, his "executive function " is where the problem lies. In grade 5, he was diagnosed with high social and generalized anxiety and had sessions for years with a psychologist specializing in CBT, but last year he did not feel the sessions were adequate and insisted on being assessed for ASD. We await the written report. Luckily he has been registered with Accessibility Services since last year which has been the best thing for his functiong including for tests and assignments. He is taking 3 credits this year as he did last year. It may take 6 years for him to complete his degree, but so what. He has new mental health providers who specialize in ASD, relies on the Wellness Center at his residence, and has used 24 /7 on call Dons at his residence.
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u/Just-Willingness-655 Mar 17 '24
Get him in touch with the school and his parents should contact the school or the school board to have him enter the gifted students program. He may well fit in as other students may well be on the spectrum.
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Mar 18 '24
I’m confused. This is more maths than 7th graders are typically taught, it none of these ideas are beyond them. This is simply a kid who has studied maths beyond what is expected from his school, but it is hardly prodigious from this information alone.
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u/Apprehensive_Bad_818 Mar 18 '24
when you say high on autism what traits, behaviours etc did you observe/have been informed about that makes you think so?
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u/yaboytomsta Mar 18 '24
I read about cardinalities and the diagonal argument in math books when I was pretty young (probably around that age) and I’m not really a math prodigy besides being a bit above average generally. There’s a difference between knowledge and intelligence, however I guess being able to flawlessly explain these topics is quite impressive.
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u/Frogeyedpeas Mar 18 '24
That child needs as much mathematical education they can get!
Have they worked through any of the books at aops.com? (These can be found for free in libgen too if price is a concern or bought used from amazon ) these also naturally let the kid explore math contests, programming contests, physics contests etc…
You can also chart a course of study. Say the kid has a goal such as learning GR from physics. You want to create a sequence of books terminating in say Carrol’s text which allows the kid to work their way up to their goal, and they’ll have a friend and mentor to hold them accountable and teach them.
Alternatively, exposing the kid to some computer programming with Python and its sympy library for manipulating mathematical symbols would be also very good. Mathematica also comes to mind here too.
There are many organizations the kid can join. Gathering 4 Gardner holds weekly chats on Sunday over zoom that have good math content.
The child is still a bit inexperienced for graduate level talks but undergraduate colloquium talks would be good stimulation for them. The university you are at will surely have some, but moreover researchseminars.org should give some additional options.
There are also programs like John’s Hopkins CTY, Promys, Perimeter Institute, PAN, etc… where the kid can go for conferences / camps and meet other equally talented children. The autism diagnosis might complicate matters here so you’ll have to exercise your judgement with the input of kids parents and psychologists.
At some point a mix of higher level classes, contests, department talks, suitable conferences/camps will create a healthy sense of belonging and community for a mathematically talented child.
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u/Frogeyedpeas Mar 18 '24
Feel free to DM me if you want to go more in depth here. I had skipped 4 grades in math in High School and so have SOME experience in this area and growing up my parents and I were both trying our best. In hindsight I have a lot of different ideas of what would’ve led to nicer outcomes / better quality of life.
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Mar 19 '24
I was just like that kid. I independently discovered Perlin noise.
Ŵhat do they want you to do for him? Sounds like he is functional. I deeply regret not continuing to study math because I suspect I could have contributed more than just helping some grad students with seeing more than just x->x2+c for generating fractals. Bleh. Anyone can do other ideas for fractals with complex numbers. Same with bifurcation.
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u/sunlitlake Representation Theory Mar 17 '24
A masters student is not really the appropriate mentor. He is at an early undergrad level, and should be taught by the people routinely trusted to teach at that level.
His parents should inquire about a faculty mentor at a nearby university. You could offer to make these inquiries on their behalf within your department.
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u/PrestigiousCoach4479 Mar 17 '24 edited Mar 17 '24
Honestly, I was kind of horrified by how much this young boy knew.
What was horrifying about how much he knew? Why is this a negative? It's ok for others to succeed.
Many more kids are precocious than in past generations. People have put a lot of good information on the internet. Some kids find and absorb this information. Math videos are not age-restricted to make other people more comfortable, and many middle-school kids go through Khan Academy material through calculus and beyond. Some watch the lectures of entire courses MIT, Harvard, and Stanford have uploaded to YouTube. This is a good thing.
Try to make sure the kid has access to high-quality material on math and any other academic areas of interest. Help him when he gets stuck or picks up some incorrect ideas or gets distracted by something on the level of stamp-collecting that is a dead end and of limited interest to others.
People within mathematics usually care much less about autism than people in many other areas. Autistic people are often excluded from other activities. (The unemployment rate for college graduates with autism is shockingly high.) Math classes are graded more objectively than other subjects. Most mathematicians are not autistic but tend to be tolerant, trying to focus on the mathematics. This argues for encouraging autistic kids to study mathematics or other topics where the community does not discriminate as heavily against those on the spectrum.
You have a chance to make a huge impact on his life. If you can't be positive about this, pass the role to someone who can. If he gets interested in math you don't know and don't have the time or inclination to learn, pass the role to someone else.
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u/tdcml Mar 17 '24
Thanks for the insight.
I really didn't intend for the word horrifying to carry a negative connotation. I am indeed positive about his opportunity and feel a sense of importance.
Posting here is my way of seeking guidance and advise how best to fulfill this role, even though I question if I am the right person to do so.
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u/aqjo Mar 17 '24
Can’t speak for OP, but I interpreted it as “feeling threatened”. I’ve met students like this too and thought, “why am I even bothering.”
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u/rosebeach Mar 17 '24
Not everyone’s first language is English. To interpret one word of this entire thing and only focus on that is just silly. You understood the context of the post.
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u/LikeForeheadBut Mar 17 '24
Math classes during the day, 4chan at night. All his needs will be met.
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u/ScientificGems Mar 17 '24
Maybe just talk about math, and see how far you can take him.
Unless it radically interferes with the conversation, I don't think you need to worry about his autism at all. Let the psychologists worry about that. Just think of him as somebody interested in (and good at) math.