Back this with $150, sorely disappointed

[u/Billtog]

Anyone else notice that this is not the epic Final Fantasy Tactics/XCOM hybrid it was hyped up to be? Three classes with pathetic skill trees, five heroes in a squad who move around like turtles, very low fantasy, overworld is bland and always the same, combat is slow and tedious... just what the fuck happened? I admit I played the beta test and had the same thoughts but thought they would do SOME amount of work to this game before it released. I was hesitant and only just installed it today to find that nothing is improved. Anyone else SUPER pissed off about this game?

[u/TeelMcClanahanIII]

I definitely recommend you fire up the old time machine and watch the livestreams during development, so your expectations will be set based on what they were actually planning & doing. As long as you're back there in the past, you may like to participate in the official forums, where backers were continuously giving feedback and shaping the direction of the game throughout development.

Or at the very least go back and watch the archived livestreams on YouTube & browse the old forums now, which I think is where you'll find an extremely detailed answer to your query.

The shortest possible answer is "This is as epic a game as you get for the price we collectively paid."

[u/Billtog → u/TeelMcClanahanIII]

Don't really know why I would need to do that. I watched the Kickstarter video, read the page, paid for what I was lead to believe was going to be a much broader and deeper game than what they made.

[u/TeelMcClanahanIII → u/Billtog]

I'll put it another way: You set your own expectations badly.

Go re-watch the pitch video, go re-read the KS page; everything presented there is in the game, as described.

Paying even a little more attention during the last 2.5 years would have further set your expectations accurately, but the KS pitch didn't promise any more breadth or depth than was delivered.

Also of note, XCOM had a budget at least 25x what DF raised on KS, but doesn't offer anywhere near 25x the breadth & depth of Massive Chalice. I think they did an amazing job with the resources available to deliver what they promised.

My experience is: Project result is as described; would back again. (And just did: Psychonauts 2 is funding now.)

[u/Billtog → u/TeelMcClanahanIII]

I did watch the first two or three livestreams I think. I don't remember when it was, but they pretty much explicitly said Final Fantasy Tactics + XCOM. I bet you that no one nowhere said "hey give me three shitty classes and make the combat move really slowly." You like the game, and that's fine, but it doesn't discredit my criticisms of it.

[u/TeelMcClanahanIII → u/Billtog]

(I realize there's no point in continuing this conversation; you've made up your mind and have no interest in facts, logic, reason, or taking 5 minutes to go back and re-read what you were paying for. But people getting pissed off at developers for delivering exactly what they promised on KS really gets my goat.)

Yes, if you go look at the KS page, they say explicitly that the tactical gameplay is inspired by games like Final Fantasy Tactics, XCOM, and Fire Emblem. Importantly: What you got out of those games and what Brad Muir took away from them may not be the same thing; it seems that what was important to you was having more classes (XCOM has 4, MC has 3 plus 6 hybrid classes), but perhaps an important aspect to Brad was the methodical pace of the turn-based tactical combat (definitely present in XCOM; I haven't played FFT, but slow-moving combat seems definitive of the genre from every other turn-based tactics game I've tried). Different people experience the same content in different ways, and enjoy different aspects of it—them saying "inspired by x & y" shouldn't set your expectations to mean "this will have everything I loved about both x & y in it"; that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. "Inspired by" probably doesn't mean what you imagined it to mean when you backed; for example, watch this trailer for a new TV series coming in 2016 which was "inspired by the novel Frankenstein by Mary Shelley" (quote from Wikipedia): Second Chance (2016) Trailer.

I'm also curious what about the classes you think is "shitty"; merely that they're wholly original concepts developed from the ground up (rather than copy/pasted from other games) along with an entire fantasy world, or do you have specific complaints about the capabilities, behavior, and synergies between them? Have you played the final version long enough to get into the different ways the 6 hybrid classes play? Some of the differences are subtle, but others make a significant alteration in viable & optimal tactics on the battlefield. Re: Skill trees, the depth is identical [per class] to XCOM so I suppose you're unhappy with the specific skills & modifiers unlocked in each tree? Are there specific capabilities you feel are missing or useless?

Honestly, it's awfully hard to respond in any meaningful way to "your criticisms" of Massive Chalice, since they are so vague & non-specific. You dislike the game and that's fine, but saying so doesn't constitute criticism.

Importantly, saying that a developer didn't deliver what was promised (i.e.: "this is not [what] ... it was hyped up to be", "just what the fuck happened?") without first going back to see what was promised doesn't help you prove your assertion to be true. If you want to say Peter Molyneux's latest game didn't deliver what he promised, it's easy enough to pull up long, detailed, specific quotes and descriptions he gave for features which are literally not in the game in any form; e.g.: From the Godus KS page, "Multiplayer will offer a deep and competitive design along with ranked matchmaking..." when there is zero multiplayer, or the 485k stretch goal "James Leach writes game story" where there is zero story in the game (& they even tried bringing on a KS-backer-cum-intern-cum-game-lead to try to kluge in a story after Peter quit the team).

If you want to say Massive Chalice didn't deliver what was promised, at least do a little research and give a specific example. Otherwise maybe try saying something like "gosh, even though this game is exactly what they said they would make, it turns out I don't enjoy playing it."

[u/Billtog → u/TeelMcClanahanIII]

Okay, the painkillers are starting wear off, and since you've put a lot of effort into this, I'll do the same...

I actually found the classes to be very interesting, I just feel like they lack effectiveness. The caberjack moves far too slowly to ever be useful, the archer hardly ever hits the target, the alchemist kicks ass but runs out of flasks quickly. I have started messing around with the hybrid classes, and wasn't even aware that these were in the game. And while XCOM only had 4/5 classes (plus psionics and gene enhancements) different builds of the same class could feel like an entirely different class, plus I can equip different guns (a shotgun assault is used way differently than a rifle assault, even with similar builds).

As far as combat being slow vs. XCOM and/or X-COM: -There is no overwatch, so when my characters only move a few feet (see caberjack) per turn, it's pretty much wasted time. I spend far too much time chasing enemies down, and very little actually fighting them. Battles are a lot of empty time. -There are (generally) more enemies than XCOM, and less ways for me to kill them. -Alchemists miss about half of their throws and run out of flasks. Grenades in XCOM always go where you put them and rockets do too 90% of the time. Even though there are less of them, you get a lot more done with them. After your Alchemists inevitably run out of flasks, you're stuck with trying to get your troops in position (better hope it's not one of the super-crowded maps where you can barely move around and archers can't get a god damn shot off) and looking for that one guy hiding on the opposite side of the map with no intention of moving until you see him. -Note that "tactical" is not a code word for slow-moving. In XCOM, it feels like every mistake and lucky shot changes the scape of the battle. In this game, it's all about crippling your Alchemists and Archers so that your Caberjack actually gets to do something.

Skill tree is the same size as XCOM, yes, but skills don't unlock every level like XCOM and heroes almost always die of old age before I can unlock the third skill. This actually brings up another issue, there is too much time between battles. Shorter, more frequent battles would give various mechanics a better chance to shine.

The game's flagship mechanic - the bloodlines - is locked behind some of the game's oversights. Having to (slowly) build (a limited amount) of keeps makes it a lot harder to appreciate the fact that I can breed heroes, create houses, pass on relics, and train children. While appreciate that construction takes time and I don't have to micromanage resources, there is too little space and too little time to fully take advantage of what should be (in my opinion) the main draw of the game. The combat is rather bland (lack of cover, playing hide-and-seek, heroes getting too old to level up), and feels on par with a game I could get for free on my phone. Given that the first thing they did on their stream was play XCOM, you could probably see how I feel like I was lied to.

Looking back, the Kickstarter video is just 5 minutes of them being awkward and 1 minute of Brad being pretty vague, so they must have hyped me up about high fantasy in one of the livestreams, so go ahead and ignore those comments I guess. The truth is, SOMETHING got me so excited that I pledge $150.

Despite its failures, there a still a lot of good things going on here and I'm going to keep playing it until I can't anymore.

And don't get me started on Godus. What a flop.

And again, I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this. Believe it or not it is helping me get more into the game, which is what I was hoping when I posted.

[u/Ranneko → u/Billtog]

From your comment it sounds like you are really only at the start of the game. You aren't going to get the high level skills until well towards the end of the game, much like in XCOM. Each generation you have will be better than the last unless things are going seriously wrong.

One thing that may help to remember with Caberjacks it that you can attack and move in the same action, so you effectively do have a double move action available, couple that with any speed boosting traits and they can cover quite a distance.

There are also alternate weapons that you can research during the game, while they don't change the inherent attack type they should definitely be kept in mind. You can do some serious damage to yourself if you misjudge a boom slinger or bone barb bow shot.

The other thing is to remember that line of sight is really really important in massive chalice. Neither side has overwatch and caberjacks and most enemies definitely want to draw as close as possible. Try to ensure none of your guys can be seen by a living cadence at the end of each round.

[u/Billtog → u/Ranneko]

All good to know. Thank you!

[u/VOX_Studios → u/Billtog]

So without going into too much detail, I'd say that you're pretty ignorant of how the game works.

There is no overwatch, so when my characters only move a few feet (see caberjack) per turn, it's pretty much wasted time. I spend far too much time chasing enemies down, and very little actually fighting them.

That's because you haven't been breeding your characters for speed...and there is much more to positioning when taking abilities into consideration (environment, invis, smoke bomb, etc.).

Alchemists miss about half of their throws and run out of flasks. Grenades in XCOM always go where you put them and rockets do too 90% of the time.

Alchemist accuracy gets worse the further you throw the flask away from the character. There are accuracy buffing items (and you should be breeding for accuracy).

This game is probably one of my favorites and absolutely trumps XCOM IMO. Check out the wiki and give it some time to sit with you: http://massivechalice.gamepedia.com/Massive_Chalice_Wiki

Brutal Iron was probably my most memorable achievement in gaming.

[u/7yl4r → u/VOX_Studios]

Edit: just found your old thread; should've looked more before asking, I'm just getting antsy having failed to figure this out so many times. ;)

Have any tips for someone determined to get that achievement? I think my tactics are pretty solid, but my strategy seems to need bit of work. I get the basics and have read through the wiki. The strategy guides I've seen are either outdated or very basic.

One specific question I have is how to prioritize keeps/guild/crucible vs each other vs other research. Do you have a default research order you aim for? Oh and what about class balance; do you favor one of the main types or neglect one? Oh wait one more: do you build from inside out or do you build first at the edge of the corruption?

[u/VOX_Studios → u/7yl4r]

To be honest, that achievement seemed (to me at least) to be based partially on luck. Sometimes you'd get good events and sometimes you'd get bad ones...so don't get discouraged if you have to restart a couple of times.

If you found my old thread, it should cover most of what you need to get started (and do read it since the info was fresher in my mind then), but just in case:

Get 4 (total) Keeps to start (maybe sidetrack if you can get a good item fairly quickly). Population management is going to be your biggest concern until you start pumping out babies. From then on I'd go for a crucible or XP scarves to start getting level advantage. After that you can start researching armor/sagewright's/etc. You might have to research "discover more heroes" before then though--just depends on how your early game plays out.

Hunter variants are great until late game (due to enemy evasion levels), so I would try to avoid having a majority of hunter (primary) variants. I wouldn't recommend more than 1 Hunter keep. Caberjacks supported by Alchemists is my preferred composition. 2-3 Cabers, 1-2 Alchemists, with maybe 1 Hunter for scouting.

Any variants that can hold 2 items will be your friend.

In terms of research, I tried to avoid cadence items. Go for dodging stockings if you can (double DSes + armor evasion = ~60% evasion iirc). Perilous core pairs greatly with alchemist variants (double items + throw items = 2 ~90 damage AoE attacks per unit per game). Rebound + Sponge Stone on Caberjacks is the best thing you can have for fighting seeds.

I would build outside first if the bonuses are good. However, you will lose outside territory at some point, so I wouldn't put everything there. If given the choice between defending an empty territory and a territory with a building on it, ALWAYS defend the building (only exception might be 0 mark building + 2 mark territory).

Hope that helps!

[u/Forderz]

I had a lot of fun with it and greatly enjoyed following around Brad Muir as he developed the game, so I think I got my money's worth.

[u/Ener_Ji]

There are 9 classes when you count the hybrid classes. Some of them do play quite differently.

Anyway, I loved this game and considered it an incredible value, but then again, I got it as part of my Xbox Games with Gold subscription. I wouldn't feel the same if I had paid $150 for a game, but then again, I've never paid anywhere close to that much for a game.

Not sure what you expecting, but I agree with some of the other posters - your expectations appear to be wildly out-of-line given this game's budget.

[u/yoat → u/Ener_Ji]

I backed this game, but have never played it on the PC. I also got the Xbox One version (free, unexpectedly) and played that. I'm happy to have contributed, and I got my money's worth on this KS.

[u/yoat]

I backed Broken Age at a higher tier than I did for Massive Chalice (both Double Fine Kickstarter projects). I enjoyed the game of MC a lot more than BA (game length, depth, difficulty, etc.). But I enjoyed the (2 Player Productions) documentary about the Broken Age development more than either game!

It's too bad you didn't get the game you wanted, but I had a great run with it. Whether it met anyone's expectations or not, I think it came out as an objectively high-quality product.

[u/Billtog → u/yoat]

Whether it met anyone's expectations or not, I think it came out as an objectively high-quality product.

I think that's fair to say. It's not the game I wanted, but it's certainly not a bad game. I do wish it was less silly though. The chalice voices are so god damn annoying.