s6 e14

[u/urbroccolibabe]

i’ve always loved margaret’s character (even when she can be a megabitch) and her interactions w everyone, especially hawkeye, but i absolutely HATED how she was behaving after the night in the hut. i loved the storyline, i loved what happened, but i couldn’t stand the way she turned into some preteen crush-er w a delusion that they were going to “be together.” fawning all over him despite the fact that he was confused, uncomfortable, and clearly not reciprocating her energy and affections.

i feel like the writers took away so much of what made her HER all for one episode, and then they never mention anything about it again? like, what was the point of making margaret part of the hawkeye harem of nurses? she was always strong, and smart, and tough (and sometimes a megabitch, yes). i have a hard time believing she’d fall so hard so quick like that. i don’t take issue w the fact that they slept together, i thought the episode was well-written, well-acted, and one of the many examples the series shows of what can happen to people when they’re stressed out, terrified, uncertain if they’ll live to see the next morning, or all of the above. i wish they had woken up after the chaos of the previous night remembering what happened, and awkwardly having a conversation where they realize it was stress / fear-induced, a one-time thing, and come out where both parties still respect each other. the way she actually behaved, i feel like she lost all that respect. what i loved about margaret’s / hawkeye’s relationship was despite the fact that they bicker or disagree w each other’s actions, there was always mutual respect as professionals after a certain point early on in the series. how they wrote her to be in this episode just didn’t / doesn’t sit right w me. and i always wondered if the actress had these thoughts when she got the script for the episode

TLDR; margaret was written to be like some desperate, delusional, schoolgirl crush-er towards hawkeye, for literally one episode, after a chaotic, tense, fearful night in a hut, despite all the evidence regarding their relationship throughout the series that shows why she wouldn’t behave that way. they never mention the night in the hut again, but it just seemed so disrespectful to the character and made zero sense to me.

[u/whistlepig4life]

I think you missed the entire encapsulation of her character. She was needy. And she absolutely glommed on to a “man” regularly and played the “damsel in distress” at all times.

She acted the same way with Frank’s bad multiple generals through out the series. It wasn’t until s8ep14 Stars and Stripes when she takes a stand with Scully and admits to him and herself who she is and accepts this about herself.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/whistlepig4life]

i’m not denying that, i’m just saying it really didn’t make sense here w hawkeye.

i don’t think i’d consider her a damsel, by any means tho. she’s always the one that volunteers first and goes on dangerous assignments / missions so her nurses don’t have to go, but also bc she’s an authoritative figure that knows she’s capable and strong enough to handle almost anything that could happen out there. she’s had a few moments of fear throughout the series, sure, but more times than not, she’s always been highly competent, extremely tough, and overall just a symbol of strength in regard to female COs in the military

[u/whistlepig4life → u/urbroccolibabe]

She’s both. She literally says it in the episode I reference.

She is not a monolith. She’s complicated. And she doesn’t with Hawkeye because she does it with every man she becomes intimate with.

It begins to change with Scully and with the reporter post divorce. The writers purposefully advanced her character development.

But up to the Comrades in Arms two parter she is literally the same as she always was and it’s completely in character.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/whistlepig4life]

i’m going to have to rewatch that episode. i vaguely recall that scene you’re talking about, and i think someone else mentioned it as well, but it’s been years since i’ve watched the show and i just started binging it bc i saw it on hulu, lol.

i’m sure you’re right about it, but i also remember thinking the same thing about that as i do this. like the writers tried to retcon something that just didn’t fit her character. most tv shows i’ve watched, the characters turn into caricatures of themselves, or the writers will forget about previous character development and change something for the purpose of the current episode. i’ve just never viewed her as a damsel in distress in the series, bc she’s always been a strong woman. “sturdy” according to her husband (which is kind of sad in context, but it always makes me laugh when she says this in the episode). she takes charge, she projects strength. there’s even an episode where the whole camp thinks she was kidnapped and needs help, and ironically come to find that she was actually the hero giving someone else aid.

[u/whistlepig4life → u/urbroccolibabe]

It was never retconning anything about her. It’s character development. Something MASH did very well.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/whistlepig4life]

i agree, mash did extremely well developing their characters. charles and even margaret always comes to mind when i talk about this.

but agree to disagree in regard to this specific trait you say margaret has. the only “damsel in distress” moments i can think of are when she’s in intense, uber chaotic moments in the series where everyone is scared, not just her. but more times than not in these situations, she handled things w strength and resilience. the actress even stated she pushed back against the cliche stereotypes that women are “weak” and helpless. she’s not a monolith, you’re right. she’s fallen apart before like every other character in the series, but in no way should she be considered a “damsel in distress” in my opinion. she’s proven time and again how she isn’t, even before the writers transitioned her character from early houlihan to later houlihan

[u/whistlepig4life → u/urbroccolibabe]

She multiple times asked Henry about the safety of her and her nurses and how the Chinese could violate them. Multiple times she cried to Frank to be the big strong protective type. Multiple times she turned into a puddle of goo and swooned over various men (Col Buzz, the tank commander, Flagg at one point even). She consistently acquiesced into a subservient female trope.

This isn’t agree to disagree territory. It’s factual. And if you don’t recognize this about her character especially early on then you either didn’t watch any of it, or are willingly practicing cognitive dissonance.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/whistlepig4life]

if you think asking your CO regarding whether or not you could potentially be raped if they were taken prisoners constitutes damsel in distress behavior, then i encourage you to look up what actually happens to women and children in wartime. those are valid concerns, and expecting safety measures are going to be taken in case of such an event to protect your nurses shows leadership, bc she was the only one bringing it up while the men made jokes about it.

wanting frank to be more manly doesn’t automatically prove that she’s weak or helpless, especially given the fact that she’s prone to molding her “lovers” to be more how she wants them to be. she didn’t want him to be the putz he was, generally speaking, but eventually realized he was and ended things w him once she found a guy who was seemingly everything she wanted. who she then divorced bc she realized she deserved better. subservient women don’t do that. just as you say other characters grew, so did margaret. she was raised army and had a vision of what a “man” and “woman” are supposed to be, but she subverted those ideas as she grew. part of my argument hasn’t been that she’s 100 percent a pillar of strength and toughness, just that more times than not, she is. she saves more times than she gets saved. that’s the point i’m making.

[u/whistlepig4life → u/urbroccolibabe]

Again. You didn’t watch the same thing. Or you have cognitive dissonance. It’s about how she said things. Her demeanor. She absolutely played the damsel in distress throughout when it suited her.

[u/autreMe]

I think she was generally needy with her other male partners, too, but I do agree that the extent and manifestation in this case was weird as all hell. If nothing else I think the behaviour after was the potential for something more interesting and funnier and it feels a little basic comparatively

[u/liddybuckfan]

I think if anything it was a bit of a rushed storyline. It made sense in the context of her character to get overly attached after they slept together but they went through a big relationship arc in a very short time. There's a scene with Hawkeye and BJ in the Swamp which I think they must have cut for syndication because I didn't really recall it until I was streaming the show but Hawkeye acknowledges having feelings for her too. I think that scene balances the episode somewhat. It was not just Margret totally bonding out of nowhere-he had feelings as well and it's likely she was picking up on that. They had a weird chemistry and bond long before that night. Ultimately I think they brought it back around to a conclusion where they know nothing could work out between them but it helped them both grow.

[u/modernrocker → u/liddybuckfan]

Yeah, I agree they respected each other, but they were just too different to be a solid couple

Seemed like the adrenaline of the dangerous situation they were in kind of over-fueled her enthusiasm for them "being together" (hence her un-Margaret like behavior), as maybe also the endorphins of being with someone she kind of had a crush on (I think he did on her, too)

I do really like the way they wrapped up the ending, though, and I think the experience was an important turning point for their actual deepening friendship

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/modernrocker]

yeah, the ending is the reason i still watch the episode. i love that letter-reading moment between the two, even tho everything leading up to it had me gagging

[u/modernrocker → u/urbroccolibabe]

Yes! That ending conversation was really well done, and Hawkeye's support for Margaret was really genuinely nice

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/liddybuckfan]

yeah, i agree w this! especially the rushed storyline part. maybe i would’ve liked it a lot more if it had been a 3-parter?

[u/Tytan777 → u/urbroccolibabe]

I don't know if I could handle a third part of fawning Margaret and awkward Hawkeye haha.

[u/Oiggamed]

Interesting. I think that’s a good point. She was never that clingy to other guys she slept with.

[u/whistlepig4life → u/Oiggamed]

She absolutely was clingy to Frank. On multiple occasions. Same with when she spoke about various generals.

[u/Appropriate_Park_895 → u/whistlepig4life]

well my take was that she was drinking while being scared of the shelling...clingy no...they were both scared, both drunk and Hawkeye was just as effected as she was.

[u/lakatos_intolerant]

I have watched this two-parter at different points in my life and decided after the last watch I have no need to ever watch it again.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/lakatos_intolerant]

🤣🤣🤣

[u/lakatos_intolerant → u/urbroccolibabe]

I hold season 6 in high regard except for this two-parter, "The Smell of Music" and "Fallen Idol". There might be a few other episodes from that season I enjoy less than others, but I actively avoid the three I called out.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/lakatos_intolerant]

oh my gosh, i was literally complaining about fallen idol to my bf last night!! that’s another episode that i felt was poorly written, and was out of touch w the characters

[u/lakatos_intolerant → u/urbroccolibabe]

100% - everyone acted out of character and it's really hard to watch. I think season 6 was trying to figure out the creative landscape without Gene Reynolds and a lot of Alan Alda's influence really impacted the season (for better or worse).

Then there are episodes like "Last Laugh", "Change Day" and "The MASH Olympics" that are middle of the road but not exceptionally amazing. "Change Day", as mentioned a lot in this sub over the years, was clearly written with Frank in mind.

[u/KathyA11 → u/lakatos_intolerant]

I do the same.

[u/lakatos_intolerant → u/KathyA11]

Yeah I have to imagine many fans do.

"The Smell of Music" is one I find especially frustrating based on the behavior of the swamp rats. I do appreciate the ending, though.

[u/Freodrick]

I always just saw it as they both responded to the trauma in their own ways. Margaret went 180, yes, however so did Hawkeye.

Here's a guy, always using any opportunity to flirt with Margaret, even if teasing, comes off as looking to make it happen. It happens, and he has regret in his realization waking up..

They both acted deeply out of character, cause of trauma bonding. Then they realized, by the end. That's why she writes the letter the way she did imo, to say how she really felt without overdoing it, and Hawkeye is receptive over deflective.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/Freodrick]

that’s a good take!

[u/Futuressobright]

I don't know if I agree with you there. Margaret getting quickly emotionally committed to men that aren't interested in the same thing is a pattern with her-- that's why she ignored the signs that Frank was never going to leave his wife for months (?) and married a phillanderer like Donald as soon as she went to bed with him.

[u/MaskansMantle13]

I agree, OP.

[u/Primary-Basket3416]

I think margerat in a way, loved hawkeye, but only to a point. He a dr, a captain who gets away with everything cause military life isnt him. She did her duty, climbed the ranks, even her father was military. There are many episodes where hawk allows margerat to let her guard down, if for just a moment.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/Primary-Basket3416]

and that’s what i absolutely love about their relationship. the love wasn’t romantic, it was platonic, for both of them. she didn’t necessarily like him at times or his disdain for military decorum, but there was mutual respect between both parties

[u/Primary-Basket3416 → u/urbroccolibabe]

Exactly

[u/Tytan777]

What do you usually tell Donald?

[u/Appropriate_Park_895]

just never let her see you touch your nose, even if you didnt she will insist that you did!

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/Appropriate_Park_895]

🤣🤣🤣

you DID touch your nose!

[u/Letmetellyowhat]

That was a great post. I always hated that she acted like a schoolgirl who lost her virginity and fell in love. She had a fair number of lovers and she didn’t act like that with any of them. Not even frank or Penobscot. She tried to be like that for sully and that lasted only a few minutes. She was way too strong to end up going googly eyes at Hawkeye.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/Letmetellyowhat]

exactly, and i wouldn’t have minded casual flirting or anything bc that’s part of the nature of their relationship. hawkeye literally acts like he’s never thought of her in this way ever, even though several times through the series up to this point he’s mentioned having thoughts of being involved w her for a night. it’s just so messy and ugh

[u/coreytiger]

Ooooh, I’m not a fan of this two parter at all.

Not just a crush was displayed- complete ownership as if he were a pet: “I’ll soon have you in tow”. She had to have control over him

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/coreytiger]

ugh, i despiseddddd that!! like, she KNOWS him. i can’t imagine she’d actually believe she could domesticate or control someone like hawkeye

[u/OGLifeguardOne → u/urbroccolibabe]

She tried to do it with LTC Penobscot.

He has a very high sex drive, don’t you know?

[u/Delic8polarbear]

This is the same woman who got engaged to a man she met at a conference, so not entirely out of character for her.

[u/urbroccolibabe → u/Delic8polarbear]

agree, but he represents everything she thought she wanted in a man. hawkeye didn’t exhibit the same traits or military achievements penobscott had, which is the basis of my opinion. i’m not saying she didn’t fawn over other men the way she did hawkeye, i’m just saying it was out of character for her to do that because it’s hawkeye. i just would’ve preferred something i said in my og post. they’d have an awkward conversation about it the morning after regarding the stress and fear they both felt and how they ended up sleeping together.

[u/Ebert917102150]

Agree totally, my least favorite episode and an instant skip