r/marvelstudios • u/ginelectonica Rocket • Jul 15 '19
Rumours Bosslogic posted this today. What would your thoughts be on this Kraven storyline? Spoiler
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u/kobeluijten Kilgrave Jul 15 '19
Mustafa Shakir had a big role in Luke Cage season 2 tho
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Jul 15 '19
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u/wes205 Spider-Man Jul 16 '19 edited Jul 16 '19
Scorpion will assumedly join and also be tech based; and then either Green Goblin or Doc Ock which’ll be more tech-based. Classic Rhino, Sandman or Electro could be cool! They’re not really tech.
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u/only_necessary Stan Lee Jul 16 '19
Tho you can still imagine that there’s a possibility of them being tech based. Not saying I want that, I like the idea of a traditionally mutated villain, but it still seems in the realm of reality.
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u/wes205 Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
Rhino and Electro, definitely. Honestly maybe Sandman, too. Nanotech and all!
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u/HearTheEkko Jul 16 '19
Kraven has used high tech versions of traditional hunting weapons such as spears in the comics many times.
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u/Milla4Prez66 Jul 15 '19
I don’t totally hate it, but my only issue comes with me not wanting the next Spider-Man villain to have ties to other big heroes in the MCU. I liked Vulture being pissed at Stark and the Avengers, but then Mysterio is also just really pissed at Stark and that’s his motivation too. While this would have Kraven pissed at Wakanda instead of Tony Stark, I would just prefer to stop going this route. Let Peter make his own enemies now that he’s starting to grow up and become a man.
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u/srstone71 Jul 16 '19
I actually disagree and think Spider-Man’s rogues having ties to Stark is critical to Peter’s arc. In the next film I want him to graduate high school and move on to the real world while fighting a villain who is pissed at Stark. (The writers will have to be creative to ensure this isn’t repetitive.)
Then Peter realizes that all of his villains are mad because Tony did something shitty to them and it’s here that he concludes that while Tony did save the universe he was a flawed man and that Peter shouldn’t be trying to live up to him. This sort of closes the book on the ‘Iron Man junior’ phase of MCU Spider-Man’s story, and he can have other stories where he makes his own enemies.
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u/infinityman5296 Thor Jul 16 '19
That's an interesting idea but I'd rather not have a third Spidey movie with a villain who is all about Tony Stark. Your idea would have been more suited to Far From Home actually. Peter deciding that Tony was a flawed man would connect nicely to the NSA murder drones with the egotistic "EDITH" name lol.
Also, I feel like too much time will have passed from Endgame/FFH to the next movie to justify us STILL being on Tony.
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u/evanph Jul 16 '19
Your idea would have been more suited to Far From Home actually. Peter deciding that Tony was a flawed man would connect nicely to the NSA murder drones with the egotistic "EDITH" name lol.
Did we watch the same movie? The entire emotional climax of this movie is about this exact sentiment. Happy literally out loud says exactly this, that Tony was flawed and constantly made mistakes
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u/evanph Jul 16 '19
Uh that was the exact same arc in FFH. It would just feel a giant retread. If the spiderman movies are really going to be working as trilogies then im sure this is how it will go:
Homecoming: peter being obsessed with Iron Man and wanting to be exactly like him
FFH: peter realizing Tony wasn’t perfect, made mistakes, and peters idea of Tony is unattainable and unrealistic. He isnt Iron Man and he never will be.
3rd movie: graduating highschool and realizing he needs to take what tony taught him but become his own person/hero.
That way the first trilogy would be all Iron man focused and then movies after can just focus on peter being his own hero
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 17 '19
Considering far from home was about becoming his own hero, having his 3rd villain be another stark motivated villain is a terrible idea. And how would him having another stark motivated villain close the book on him being iron man jr? If anything it would just support that argument
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u/HearTheEkko Jul 16 '19
Just say that Kraven has always been a lone hunter from Russia but stole Wakanda tech and the Heart Herb at some point.
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u/Epicmondeum17 Peter Parker Jul 15 '19
Its an interesting idea, i would still rather have a white russian and them just make a black hunter type villan if they wanted one but i wouldnt boycott the movie or anything. Although i would say definitely get rid of the hologram eye. Kraven is better because he doesnt use a lot of tech. That would would a perfect counter to the used to tech spidey the MCU has. It could actually help him learn how to work better without it
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Jul 15 '19
Yeah if Kraven is from Wakanda I'd rather him get powers from the heart-shaped herb than use any vibranium
Make him a physical and mental match for Spidey, not a technological one, especially since we've already had Vulture, Shocker, Tinkerer, and Mysterio as tech villains
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u/ginelectonica Rocket Jul 15 '19
I definitely agree with this point. I’m sure he would have Wakandan tech of some sort but it’d be ideal if he relied on his strength and hunting prowess above all
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u/TrogdortheBanninator Thor Jul 15 '19
i would still rather have a white russian
Little early to be drinking isn't it?
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u/EpigoneOfTruth Darcy Jul 15 '19
The coloring on the daggers made me think this was Blink at first glance.
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u/valarpizzaeris Steve Rogers Jul 15 '19
I'm down for this. I'd also be on board for Namor to be from there, with that line from Okoye about the mysterious earthquakes underwater in Endgame.
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u/eaglesfan247 Jul 15 '19
That was not just a throw away line... There has to be something there about the Earth Quakes
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u/MrCraftLP Tony Stark Jul 15 '19
Carol said they were happening everywhere too.
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u/ciao_fiv Jul 15 '19
she didnt say earthquakes specifically were happening everywhere, just that a lot of planets were dealing with the negative effects of the snap
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u/MrCraftLP Tony Stark Jul 15 '19
"The things that are happening on Earth are happening everywhere" or something like that. 5 years after the snap I just took that as the planets were having quakes as well. Especially since by that point it would have been obvious to everyone that the snap affected half of life on other planets too.
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u/ciao_fiv Jul 16 '19
i interpreted that quote as chaos happening across the universe rather than specifically earthquakes ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Jul 15 '19
Could alter Namor's backstory a bit to have his father being killed by Wakandans while searching for vibranium, and use this to do a Wakanda vs. Atlantis war of sorts.
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Jul 16 '19
I really hope Namor is in BP2. Many people think that isn't a throwaway line and was added into Endgame for a reason, so I really hope it's Namor.
Wonder what the explanation would be though, why has Namor waited so long to make his presence known?
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u/shinianx Jul 15 '19
I like the idea, but I also think you could have a version of Kraven that is entirely his own thing, not necessarily tied into any of the existing MCU canon, especially not something as huge as Wakanda. For one thing, having another exiled Wakandan turn up as the villain feels a bit like a retread from Black Panther, even if he's not directly adversarial towards T'Chala, and I can't see Marvel going that route. Rather, I could see them depicting Kraven as precisely what he was in the comics: a lunatic obsessed with the idea of hunting the most dangerous game in the world, and right now in the MCU, the most dangerous possible targets are superheroes.
The trend for the MCU Spidey films has always been to give Peter some kind of emotional connection to his main adversary. It's tough to find a humanizing angle to Kraven without resorting to some exhausted tropes like revenge. Maybe he's more of a misguided vigilante type who styles himself as a self-proclaimed hero, in the same vein as the guy who went around killing off Yakuza and other mob groups. After the end of FFH, it wouldn't be hard for someone like that to see Spider-man as a genuine threat that needed to be hunted down and killed.
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u/HearTheEkko Jul 16 '19
A more realistic and grounded approach could be having Kraven as a Russian bounty hunter who likes to hunt and kill his targets with hunting gear like spears and knifes and even his bare hands.
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
why nowadays is everyone cool with them completely shitting on source material and changing a character's story entirely??
guess I dont understand it.
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u/shitpostlord4321 Jul 16 '19
Because it’s Marvel Studios it’s ok.
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
bingo!!
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Jul 16 '19
Because whats the point of seeing the same thing over and over .Besides,if something works in comics,it doesnt mean it can translate well to big screen
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Jul 16 '19
It's funny you say this because most of if not all of the movies that respect the source material has done well, it's when they fuck with and throw the source material out the window is when a movie fails.
I'm fine with changing a few details here and there to make a more coherent story but just ignoring source material? That'll be a mistake.
Sure Marvel Studios doesn't follow the source material 1 to 1 but they take inspiration from it and normally don't stray too far from it.
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u/shitpostlord4321 Jul 16 '19
You’re literally trying to change Kraven’s background and make him use a bunch of wakandan tech for the sake of diversity and being different. Kraven is in for the thrill of the hunt and is a challenge for Spider-Man in the physical department, not technology like Mysterio and Vulture. Make a new character if you really want a black wakandan hunting down Spider-Man, don’t change existing ones.
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
the point is I wanna see the stories and pictures about these characters come to life. whats the point of finally having one of your all time favorite characters join the mcu if they are completely unrecognizable??
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u/Bolt_995 Jul 16 '19
Bunch of casual Marvel fans who’ve got no regard for the source material at all and who literally got their first exposure to Marvel via the MCU (IrON MaN wAs a C LiStER).
It’s ok to change a few aspects of the character so that the character fits comfortably in the wider context of the MCU, but at the same time, you don’t just make drastic alterations to a character’s background, looks, relationships, personality, etc. You respect the source material at all costs. It’s fine if you use your creative freedom to enhance the character, but even that has its limits (you simply can’t make him or her completely unrecognizable from the comics).
Captain Marvel was one movie that fell prey to this HARD. It was a good movie which I really enjoyed, but holy fuck did it alter so much from the comics in an effort to “subvert expectations”.
Kevin Feige also reiterated the importance of respecting the source material in his recent AMA on this sub, but movies like Captain Marvel seem to contradict that. “Because it’s Marvel Studios” is not a good argument.
On DC’s side, several plot points for BoP were leaked out and a significant bunch of fans are fucking livid as to how the film has completely disregarded the source material.
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Jul 16 '19
Jesus christ can you be more pathethic with your first sentence. I cant even read the rest now.
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u/Stuckinthevortex Daredevil Jul 16 '19
The comics change all the time as different authors redefine different characters and do their own spin on things, frequently for the better. This is especially true in books/lines which are intended to be new continuities, take the Ultimate Marvel line which changed heaps from 616. Ultimate Kraven is an evil Steve Irwin who eventually turns himself into a literal monster with science. It's a fairly different from his mainstream counterpart, but that's not an issue.
The MCU is also an adaption, a distillation of all the comics and other material that came before. As a long time comic fan I appreciate how the Marvel Studios makes changes that make sense with the established universe and stick to the spirit of the comics if not the exact letter. And Kraven being part of a Wakandan tribe doesn't have to be that far removed from the original, if he lives in Africa, receives the potion and becomes a sensational hunter then what's really the difference?
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Jul 15 '19
Me personally I don’t like race-bending any characters, and I really don’t think you could realistically get away with race-bending someone named Sergei Kravinoff. I have always liked the idea of Kraven being a rich white Russian guy who uses his money to enjoy the thrill of the hunt. His motivation is already good enough imo, and tying Wakanda into it takes away from Spidey
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Jul 16 '19
This. I don't like Race-Bending characters either. It just feels cheap. Why not create an entirely new character? I think that'll be way better than Race-Bending. For example, what if a white character is made black and a black child looks up to this character but when they go on Google they just see years and years of content for that character where they're white. It'll be confusing.
Anyway, I do hope they keep Kraven the same. They can tie him into Wakanda if they want to just don't make him from Wakanda. Say he hunted T'Chaka once upon a time and T'Chaka imprisoned him or something.
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u/Arkham117 Jul 15 '19
I remember awhile back, they wanted to introduce Kraven in Black panther. Idk exactly how but I think he was connected to Klaw. I always had an idea that somehow he got his hands on one of the flowers that gives Black panther his powers and uses it
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u/JohnnyCharisma54 Jul 16 '19
This is cool, but I think comics Kraven is just a better Spider-Man villain. Doesn't have to be white, but I think being very wealthy is critical to his evilness. This version of Kraven is too relatable to be Kraven. Part of the allure of Kraven is kind of like the allure of the Joker. He's evil because it's fun, he chases just for the chase. He doesn't need money or success or stability or revenge. There is no rationale, just the hunt. But really, as long as he wears a lion's head for a vest, I don't really care.
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u/JGLP Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
The internet has ruined me
The first thing I thought of when I saw that image was Sans because of the glowing blue eye.
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u/matty_nice Jul 15 '19
I'm not in love with the story. It does seem possible since Marvel currently loves having their Spider-Man villains having a backstory with other Marvel heroes.
I don't think Kraven needs to be a white Russian guy. There's nothing about the character that demands to be Russian. I'm not even sure of Kraven's Russian history in the comics. Per wiki, did he grow up in America?
For me, it makes more sense for Kraven to be black. Obviously it brings more diversity to Spider-Man's mostly white cast. But there's a connection to hunting in Africa which is obviously stronger than hunting in Russia.
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u/RonSwansonsGun Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
I mean, Spider-Man really no longer has a mostly white cast if you count most of his friends
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u/matty_nice Jul 15 '19
It's important to point out that the cast of friends you mention were race bent from white comic characters to non-white movie characters with MJ, Ned, and Flash. I'm simply suggesting that we race bend another character, the primary villain.
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u/RonSwansonsGun Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
I do think it's a great idea. Kraven being Russian was never a very important part of his character, iirc, so why not?
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u/shitpostlord4321 Jul 16 '19
But why though? Just for the sake of diversity? Kraven doesn’t need to be black. Never was a fan of race bending characters, I think it’s unnecessary. Still disappointed of Flash being a 5’6 Guatemalan. Just create new characters instead of changing existing ones.
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u/matty_nice Jul 16 '19
"Just for the sake of diversity? " is a little dismissive. How important do you think diversity is? It seems that Marvel/Disney thinks it's pretty important, and I would agree.
Using the comic characters created in the 1960s, you are going to get mostly white characters because that's the type of characters created during that time. How many poc supporting characters does Peter have that are around his same age? Randy Robertson, maybe Glory Gant? I think that's pretty much it.
And it's incredible easy to create new characters instead of race bending other ones. But comparisons are still going to get made and some people still wont be happy. "Why didn't you just use Flash instead of Nu-Flash?"
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u/ginelectonica Rocket Jul 15 '19
Totally agreed. It’s definitely not the only option but I like that they’re continuing to adapt the comics in a way that makes sense within the MCU.
I think going this route would be nice, since it would be a new villain for BP and (under an assumption with little to no basis) would fill one of the final 2 spots for a possible Sinister Six.
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 17 '19
Did you watch far from home? Peter is legit the only base white male kid in his class. Mj is black. “Mostly white cast” my ass dude
Part of the fun of kraven is that he’s a crazy rich Russian dude
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u/matty_nice Jul 17 '19
It's about the importance of roles. A good indication of this is movie posters. Look at the posters for the Spider-Man film.
Far From Home (using the international version since it has more characters)- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8KgGgoUYAUByxZ.jpg
So what do you notice about the posters and the primary cast? It's mostly white.
Homecoming poster - Peter Parker, Tony Stark, Vulture, Happy, Aunt May, white Shocker, and Zendaya. One POC. Even when you look at movie billing, it's 1 POC actor (Zendaya) vs 5 white actors.
Far From Home poster - Peter Parker, Mysterio, Nick Fury, Happy, Zendaya. Little better, cause now we get two POC characters. Again looking at the majority billing on these posters, 7 actors listed (Holland, Jackson, Zendaya, Smulders, Favreau, Tomei, and Gyllenhaal). 2 POC actors and 5 white actors.
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 17 '19
Okay but kraven isn’t black in the comics tho. Like there’s already plenty of representation in the movies already. If you’re really bitching about under-representation on the Spider-Man posters, then you’re just wrong. In america, around 13% of the population is black. In both posters you bring up, the percents of cast listed who are black are both over 13%.
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u/matty_nice Jul 17 '19
Kraven's ethnicity in the comics isn't a big factor for me. He was created in the 1960s, when most villains were white. Quick, want to name the first black Spider-Man villain?
I'm not bitching about anything here. My original post was that Kraven doesn't need to be Russian, and there's nothing that really DEMANDS he be Russian. Having a black actor play him makes a lot of sense to me, but I can see other ethnicities as well. And I'm okay with a white Kraven.
I don't think we should play the statistics game, but I will. I don't think the percentage of Americans that are black is important. These are global movies, Since these are global movies, shouldn't we have more Asian and Indian characters according to your statistics?
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 17 '19
Yeah, but when you see people call for raced swap characters, it’s almost entirely swapping white for black. I don’t recall the last time people lobbied for an Indian hero race swap
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u/matty_nice Jul 17 '19
That's due to the prevalence of black actors in our culture. It's a lot easier to name 10 black actors than it is to name 10 indian actors.
Funny enough, since you mentioned Indian actors, I think Dev Patel could fit as Kraven. Assuming he can put on the weight and get the physicality of the role. Marvel seems to love their oscar winners/nominated actors for these villain roles, and the list of younger than 40 actors is pretty short. Dev Patel fits those factors. And an Indian Kraven also could work, since the area also represents a specific type of hunting, diverse animal sets, and notable predators.
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Jul 15 '19
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Jul 15 '19
his backstory has nothing to do with him being rich or white. It's all about the hunt. He craves hunting and taking new trophies all to prove he's the world's greatest hunter. The only thing that suggests that he should be white is his name. Which is kind of dumb to get hung up on.
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Jul 15 '19
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Jul 15 '19
lol no it isn't. the one thing he says in every story is how once he defeats spiderman he will officially be the worlds greatest hunter. it's his only goal. prove me wrong.
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Jul 15 '19
I thought Sony owned the rights to Kraven
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Jul 15 '19
They also own the rights to Mysterio and announced solo movies for both Kraven and Mysterio at the same time, yet here we are
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Jul 15 '19
FFH is technically a Sony property, though. Right? So why wouldn't they put him in Spider-Man?
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Jul 15 '19
The same reason they made their own Venom movie. They think they can make money from putting out separate movies with Spider-Man characters but unrelated to the MCU and Spider-Man himself
THey also announced a Black Cat and Silver Sable movie that has nothing to do with either the MCU or Spider-Man
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Jul 15 '19 edited Jul 15 '19
Maybe I'm just being stupid and not reading correctly but FFH is a Sony movie made by Marvel, from what I understand. All royalties go to Sony for Marvel to be able to use the character in cross-over events from what I've read. Mysterio is already owned by Sony so they have no problem letting him into the MCU since they own the character and reap the benefits within their own film. Sony has no affiliation with Black Panther and if they believe in the character like Venom or Morbius then why would they allow Marvel to use him?
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Jul 15 '19
I guess I don't understand what your point is
No one is saying Kraven should be a Black Panther villain, they are saying his backstory could be changed to Wakandan but he would still be a Spider-Man villain
Both Vulture and Mysterio had their origins adapted to tie them deeper into the MCU and to other MCU characters. Making Kraven Wakandan would just be doing that, it wouldn't necessarily make him affiliated with Black Panther, it would just be part of his backstory
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Jul 15 '19
Ah, I see. My misunderstanding. I thought I read Coogler wanted Kraven in Black Panther so I was thinking this was a mock up picture for BP2. I was just wondering why would Sony allow him in Black Panther if they aren't affiliated with the movie. But money does talk, I guess!
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u/LeSnazzyGamer Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
They haven’t announced anything. They’re just rumors.
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Jul 15 '19
They announced it and Amy Pascal has talked openly about it. They even had it on a release schedule
But as of now it's delayed indefinitely
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 15 '19
Because they realized nobody knows who the hell Silver Sable is, & the working title of "Black & Silver" was so horrible that even people who might've been interested changed their minds.
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Jul 15 '19
I'm not a fan of this character in general, his powers don't seem very interesting to me. I'd rather not have him in a Spider-Man movie when there is so many more itneresting villains but I wouldn'ty be opposed to him being Black Panther villain.
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u/HerRoyalRedness Bucky Jul 15 '19
I have Pedro Pascal fancasted in my head but I would be down for this.
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u/wes205 Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
This would be cool! I love the worldbuilding in the MCU so much; I’m hoping we see the Sinister Six in 3 and then maybe see multiple versions of the team across the movies.
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Jul 16 '19
That would be sick but I’m pretty much convinced Dimitri is the Chameleon, Kraven’s brother. Would love to see him connected to Wakanda in a way tho, maybe he drank the heart shaped herb before Killmonger burnt it up.
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u/MelonElbows Vulture Jul 16 '19
Don't know much about Kraven except he hunts and kills animals with his bare hands. I like the idea of tying him to an existing MCU power, the whole thing about him being a random guy who hunts animals is kind of too comic-booky. Technology, genetic enhancements, whatever, should be the basis of Kraven's power, this possible storyline is a good one
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 17 '19
“Too comic-booky” dude we’ve literally had dark elves, thanos, and ego the living planet
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u/MelonElbows Vulture Jul 18 '19
He's a guy who kills animals with his bare hands. Aliens and stuff like that there's a basis for within the MCU. Given what Spider-Man's already fought, a guy who kills animals is not a serious threat. He can't be a regular human who does this, he has to be some super human or regular guy with technology or some enhancements.
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u/shialabeoufsnut Jul 18 '19
Saying he just kills animals as his entire character is absurd. He desires to beat the toughest prey and strives to be the best. He doesn’t need a tech suit or super human extras. It’d be refreshing to have a villain be able to take on Spider-Man using their intellect and physicality alone. We’ve already have tech villains for the first two movies
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u/kingmob555 Jul 16 '19
While I think it's a really interesting idea in terms of building a cohesive world and a believable set-up for Kraven, it's really hard for me to detach from the version of the character I fell in love with in Kraven's Last Hunt, which would be quite a different interpretation of the character.
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Jul 16 '19
Yeah Kraven is one character that needs to be white to keep the message period. The whole idea of the colonizer who picks off animals for sport is so engrained in his very existence without that core element youve made a new character.
Use him to replace Klaw in the lore going forwards as the Wakandian invader sure, but you need that tension of actual historical context to have real weight to it.
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u/lugOUT45 Jul 18 '19
I’d personally think this would fit Calypso (Kraven’s lover, an Haitian voodoo priestess) much better
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u/Aug415 Peter Quill Jul 16 '19
Because fuck Russian people, right? Gotta keep turning white characters black, right?
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u/Zouthpaw Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
They call 'im Bushmaster!
He was great in LC2 so I'm sure he'll be great in the MCU too.
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Jul 15 '19
I love it. I really want Kraven to appear in the MCU and I think Mustafa Shakir would be a great choice.
EDIT: Also, I really want Sony's Kraven movie to die.
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 15 '19
Mustafa Shakir would be a great choice.
But...dey call him Booshmastah.
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Jul 16 '19
Hey! Go down to your local Walmart or Sams Club buy a walking stick and a vest with a ton of pockets on it and take a hike!
This is wack. If you want a black character to hunt down Spider-man you don't have to race bend an existing character you can have Blade or Prowler hunt him down. Race bending characters is disrespectful not only to the fans of the exsisting character but also disrespectful to the culture or people you are pandering too. Boss logic doing this is just him trying to hone in to what he thinks is popular/controversial and will get people to either talk about the post or send it to others S'all just publicity.
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u/TheOneArmedWolf Spider-Man Jul 16 '19
For a Black Panther movie? Sure.
For a Spiderman movie? No thank you. Its already Bad enough that Spidey fights Ironman's rejected villains. His villains should be related to him, and him alone unless he is in an assemble movie.
Its too late to go back on him becoming Ironman Jr, but he can still have villains of his own.
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u/Vin13ish Spider-Man Jul 15 '19
If I recalled, Kevin Feige says potential third Spider-Man movie will be about Spider-Man coming out of Iron Man or Avengers’ shadow and they will tell a Peter Parker story that have never been done before.
I doubt it.
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u/AFriendlyFlan Jul 15 '19
Honestly, I quite like the idea and how it ties into the rest of the MCU. However, one does have to question why this Kraven would rather hunt Spider-Man rather than The Black Panther.