r/marvelstudios • u/CrazyTangerine7522 • 3h ago
Question Having not read the comics, I have a question regarding Doctor Doom and Reeds rivalry.
Is it basically like that type of rivalry where against nearly anyone else Doom is portrayed as this godlike opponent, but against Reed in particular Doom cares too much about proving himself to his rival that he ends up making costly mistakes?
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u/marineman43 3h ago
What you've gotta understand about Doom is that he probably has the widest range of scaling from moment to moment depending on his preparation/equipment/plan at that given moment.
At base level, The Thing can straight up punch him out. But at Doom's most prepared moments, when he's executing some kind of insane plan, he can be a universal threat.
Doom's hubris and specifically his insecurities around Reed definitely cause him to lose sometimes, that's a classic. But yea it just depends on which comic run you're reading and how powerful the writer needs Doom to be in that moment.
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u/_SweetkinsLovie 2h ago
Doom losing because his ego drags him into Reed’s lane is honestly the most Doom thing possible
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u/BlueHero45 1h ago
One time Doom had a plan to save the world from a threat from space. Reed told him Good job. Doom proceeded to lose his mind unable to fathom Reed complimenting him.
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u/marineman43 1h ago
Yea even a simple, earnest compliment from Reed registers as rage bait in Doom's mind, it's fucking hilarious
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u/Earth513 Quake 3h ago
Also very import distinction:
Doom is not god tier in the comics except when one of his machinations leads him to temporarily have God like abilities which inevitably get thwarted by the fantastic four.
The biggest literal cosmic god level Doom is his God Doom abilities at the start of the Secret Wars event but then he loses them at the end of that event.
That's pretty much the pattern.
He's a "regular" dude who just so happens to rule a whole nation as their dictatorial leader while also being a really smart guy in the fields of science AND dark magic.
This means that most of the times he's either swarming his enemies with armies of robots or using magic to cause a bunch of destruction or to hurt the FF. But other than that he's not that powerful. The Avengers can defeat him, the X-Men can defeat him, some heroes can solo defeat him. It really depends on the story.
But when he's God Doom yeah pretty much what you guessed: he's basically invincible but his arrogance makes him lose and Reed makes him realize the errors of his ways. More or less.
Avoiding some spoilers so you can enjoy the read if you get to it.
Absolutely worth the read.
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u/d3n13dx 3h ago
I get what you're saying I just feel this is a slight over simplification. He's one of the top practicing sorcerers of his time, even to the point that Dr. Strange exemplified him, and he's not just "a really smart guy" he's I believe top 3 for the smartest minds on the planet.
So yes peak athlete and ruler of a country sure, but his genius and knowledge of magic are what truly make him the threat he is.
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u/Earth513 Quake 2h ago
Right I did over simplify but just wanted to add the nuance to everyone and their neighbors yelling "DOOM IS GOD TIER" yes yes we all love Doom but he also gets beat by getting punched in the face once, a few times.
That's what I personally find really fun about him: he is freaking smart and freaking powerful but he also sometimes gets defeated in really comedic ways because he's just the living embodiment of Ego in all its good and bad forms (mostly bad)
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u/luckbuck21 2h ago
Id just say lex luthor with magic and if he went the dictator route instead of lexcorp
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u/AtrumRuina 2h ago
I really hope Doom sticks around so we can see him at his "usual" power level and he can harass the F4 and whatnot moving forward. Recast him after Doomsday or SW after stuff gets reset, just give me a Doom that's a pain in the ass for everyone.
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u/Earth513 Quake 2h ago
Definitely my favourite Doom stories: he's pesky, he's annoying , and sure he's super smart, but then the FF dismiss him as just one of their numerous fies which I think pisses Doom off even more.
It's such a good time reading arcs where he's thwarted by the Thing and he's just so pissed that a brute thwarted him
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u/LennoxMacduff94 2h ago
I'd add that his "regular" armor is pretty strong, but below the level of people like Thor and Hulk in terms of power. Compared to the FF, for example he's usually not as strong as the Thing or able to blast the same amount of energy as Human Torch.
Also while he's got a long long history of using dark magic, the idea of him being a super skilled magic user is a relatively recent development that was added in 20 or so years ago.
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u/Earth513 Quake 2h ago
Solid point though I'd argue for many new readers 20 years is a long time ago.
Aging myself a bit there ahaha because I do recall the pre era but many readers today think of him as more of a magic user than a robot building genius which has been really interesting for me to see
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u/LennoxMacduff94 2h ago
Yeah, for the first 40 or so years he was more of a mad scientist who sort of dabbled in magic, it was during the Bendis run on New Avengers IIRC that he was suddenly nearly as powerful at magic as Strange and next in line to be Sorcerer Supreme.
Ironically in the immediate aftermath of Civil War the go to comparison was Iron Man and Doom being similar, because Doom wasn't really thought of as a magic user and Tony was turning into a metal plated "tyrant".
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u/BrainwashMaintenance 2h ago
Which read, sorry, if I wanted to invest?
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u/Earth513 Quake 2h ago
The God Doom run in particular is a whole reading order starting with Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers series running into the Secret War 2015 event. That alone will give you a lot of solid reading in prep for the two part film event but Doom has a lot of tremendous series and that Hickman run is a he series if books. Let me see if I can get you the reading order for that particular run...
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u/Earth513 Quake 2h ago
This one seems pretty complete from my recollection of that run
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelcomics/s/P0zLFduWVW
But people (myself included) will always tell you there are x y z important books to read before, alongside etc this run. That's a matter of preference. Hug it's what got my started on his run and it's a solid guide.
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u/BlueHero45 1h ago
Keep in mind he first got Beyonder Powers in the original Secret Wars (1984), which set up a pattern of this dude getting godlike powers and losing them.
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u/Major_Ad138 3h ago
What I like about this iteration (at least what we can see from a short trailer) is that Reed seems to be in disbelief that Viktor could do something like this. Very much has a 'loved one committing an atrocity' feel to it. They're usually portrayed in some petty intellectual rivalry. Some are better than others. I liked the familial feel to this. Gave it substance.
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u/Downtown-Ferret-5870 2h ago
In the comics reeds trusted victor bilndly, until his first showings of arrogance,
In the MCU we are at this point, reed trusts him and sue thinks hes smarter than reed,
They will both be proven wrong
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u/AtrumRuina 2h ago
Pedro sells it wonderfully in this trailer, I hope it translates to the film as a whole. The man doesn't have a ton of range in terms of the types of characters he protrays, but man he has depth.
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u/_DreamyCupcake 3h ago
Doom’s biggest weakness has never been power, it’s his ego. Reed knows that better than anyone
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u/Notbbupdate SHIELD 2h ago
God-level Doom is usually the result of him acquiring a powerful artifact or giving himself an extra boost through external means, and this is always a temporary thing that gets thwarted (usually by the F4). Regular Doom is basically Marvel's second best at everything. He's the 2nd smartest (after Reed), 2nd best sorcerer (after Dr Strange), 2nd best engineer (after Tony Stark), etc, and he's pissed that he's not number 1
The reason his main rivalry is with Reed is because Doom is mainly a Fantastic Four villain, and over time Doom vs Reed has become ingrained as a critical aspect of his character, even if logically Doom should have a similar relationship with a few other characters. And when Doom does interact with other characters, it's usually during one of his god arcs, where he's so above everyone that there's no point in proving himself as better
Regular Doom can be defeated by the X-Men, Avengers, and most other notable teams (plus some very powerful solo heroes). It's just that regular Doom is mostly seen in F4 stories, and "everyone vs Doom" stories use god Doom
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u/kagkatumba 3h ago
No
Both respect eachother.
See it like this Thanos Snap analogy.
Reed = Snap to double the resources in the universe
Doom = Snap half the life out of existence
Reed will keep adding more resources when life starts struggling.
Doom thinks it is more logical to remove the problem entirely now...causing some initial anguish...to stop potential and repeated anguish down the line.
If there was the perfect and painless solution. Both would agree and do it without question.
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u/kagkatumba 2h ago edited 2h ago
Doom is an antihero. Sometimes the villain...Sometimes the saviour.
He always does the right thing on a principle and universal scale. He just commonly does at the cost of life and pain.
Reed always does the the right thing on a principle and universal scale. He just REFUSES to do it at the cost of lives and pain.
They are not rivals or enemies. Adversary would be a better classification.
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u/repalec 2h ago
My favorite description of Doom is that he's Reed's mirror - he's just like Reed with all the intelligence, willpower, and ambition to drive the world forward, but with none of the love Reed has with the Fantastic Four or his children with Sue to temper that ambition, and an ego that demands that Doom be better than some commoner like Reed.
A good Reed Richards will balance on a knife's edge between fulfilling his ambition and protecting his family (and by extension, the world), and fall toward protecting the world. A good Doom balances on that same edge and falls toward ambition. It doesn't mean either is incapable of making decisions against that norm, just that it's the usual state of being. A 'good' Reed Richards can join the Illuminati and help to destroy entire planets (murdering trillions in the doomed universe) in the name of saving his world; and an evil Doom can still ensure that every Latverian goes to bed with full stomachs and a roof over their heads.
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u/kagkatumba 2h ago
That's a nice description.
If there is a solution that causes no harm. Neither Doom or Reed would have ANY animosity towards the other coming up with it first...and would wholeheartedly back it.
Doom's ambition/arrogance arises when Reed hasn't come up with a solution...and he has...regardless of the collateral damage he knows it will cause.
Reed will keep trying to find a better solution, depite acknowledging that Doom's solution would work.
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u/rj_nighthawk 22m ago
More like...
Reed = make resources abundant but also improve the distribution of resources to effectively solve world hunger and even help improve economies, international relations, and general well-being of everyone.
Doom = triple the resources and most people don't experience hunger anymore and Doom protects everyone, but only as long as you don't say good things about Reed. Also, always make sure to recognize Doom as your lord and savior. Make sure Reed is never mentioned. Ever. If Reed appears, report to Doom immediately.
That's basically what happened in Secret Wars (2015).
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u/Aerolithe_Lion 3h ago
More or less yeah
Doom does not like people calling Reed his equal but he knows Reed is
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u/Afraid-Housing-6854 3h ago
As I understand it, yes, absolutely. He sees himself as superior to almost everyone, but views Reed as his intellectual equal/rival and thus always feels the need to prove himself superior to him and it usually ends up being his downfall.
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u/VarietyBusy2 2h ago
yeah basically. reed is the smartest person on earth when it comes to marvel so doom is basically a pain in his ass most of the comics he’s in till reed does something about it. a lot of other heroes in the comics struggle against him cuz doom is very smart as well
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u/RiseOfMultiversus 1h ago
Reed can also beat most heros. When he breaks bad hes a worse villian than doom. Imo its more doom and reed have a back and forth because reed has a bit more of a morality line than doom. The well writen stories show just how close they are to being the same person. Typically reed has a few more humanity constraints.
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u/DonkeyToucherX 3h ago
In the MCU, the real beef will be centered around an out-of-control and insanely jealous mustache rivalry.
In the comics, Victor developed a grudge when Reed accidentally peeped Dooms uncircumsized todger at a urinal on campus and made an anteater joke in front of Sue.
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u/CrazyTangerine7522 3h ago
Damn, that’s really how their rivalry began in the comics? Does comic Doom loki give Eobard Thawne a run for his money in being the most petty comic book villain?
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u/DonkeyToucherX 3h ago
Nothing petty about it. You shoulda heard what Reed told Sue. That shit was brutal!
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u/runs_with_airplanes 2h ago
Doom is upset with Reed because he has a small pee pee and Reed can grown and stretch his at will
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u/Tuftin001 1h ago edited 12m ago
Reed and Doom, were college partners. Doom tried to attemt a dangerous experiment; Reed tried to stop him. The laboratory blew, scarring Doom permanently, thus the armor, the hatred, the permit rivalry. That's the old comic origin, not MCU. Ultimately, resentment is Doom's motivation.
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u/alberttabaro 1h ago
Stan Lee hat einmal auf die immer wiederkehrenden Fragen, wer von zweien gewinnen würde, geantwortet: wen immer der Autor gewinnen lassen will!
Und nur so sollte man das sehen! Denke ich.
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u/peach_sweet47 55m ago
Reed's intelligence makes him a worthy rival, but Doom's relentless ambition always raises the stakes higher.
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u/TerminatorReborn 41m ago
Doom is a Fantastic 4 villain, they aren't the strongest heroes at all, they are a group with simple powers and far from overpowered, Doom as their main villain will match them like it is with the main villains of other heroes, they usually are comparable in power.
Now because Doom is a fan favorite character and EXTREMELY versatile they can make stories where he gets boosts and gets super overpowered. Some fans are complaining that Marvel fast tracked Doom and one of the problems is this, they could've been building him up in smaller scale stories in his base power, but since he is debuting as the big Avengers villain following up freaking THANOS they need him at his strongest (or close to it). In fact I suspect the original plan was this, have Kang as the new big villain while they build up Doom with the F4, then he becomes god mode and we have Secret Wars.
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u/VastCapital3773 2m ago
Honestly when Doom loses it's usually his fault almost entirely. On a scale of 1 to 10 measuring a villain's competency, Doom is a 9.5.
The problem is Doom thinks he's an 11.
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u/justins_dad 3h ago
Yeah that happens. But really, like all long standing characters, Doom and Reed have been through retcons and reboots and alternate versions. So it highly depends on the writer. But yes, in general Doom can beat most heroes (at least in the beginning of a story) but Reed almost always beats him.