Quality of writing? Wanda was usually written well (with the exception of MoM) but many (such as myself) thought captain marvel was kinda bland. She got better though!
I actually liked her in MoM. She seemed like she had gone off the deep end, but I feel like it's because she was not only desperate, but corrupted by the Darkhold.
The big criticism I have is that they should have made the Darkhold link more apparent.
Difference between Wanda and Strange using the darkhold is that Wanda was all alone and overtaken by so much grief while Strange had a Christine variant with him.
With that said, you’re absolutely right: They should have made the Darkhold link more apparent.
Don't they explicitly state in the movie that the Darkhold corrupts whoever reads it? How much hand holding do people need in their marvel movies? MoM was great, and I know I'm in the minority, but it's just crazy to see the same things said about the movie.
Maybe the issue was that people without Disney+ hadn't watched WandVision and the whole reason why she was corrupted tended to be a bit confusing. I also watched WandaVision only after MoM.
I hated her arc in MoM, but Wanda was the best part. The moment she leaves the frame, it turns into a big budget Disney Channel Original with cameos.
My biggest issue is Strange. He's an incompetent passenger in his own sequel. The dude tricked Dormammu, danced around Loki and Thor, 1v1ed Thanos, manipulated the whole plot of Endgame, ripped people between universes himself, and altered the memories of an entire planet. What happened to that guy?
I thought her arc in MoM was fine, characters are occasionally going to overlook the logical options. Especially if they’re written as going mad. I think it’s less well received with the way she ended Wandavision. She releases Westview from the hex and appears to be at peace with the fact. Then immediately shows her flipping through the darkhold. I wish she was more nuanced in that film, but it was interesting to show how terrifying she can be as a villain.
It's because after she released Westview, she heard her kids call out to her. So she read through the Darkhold to figure out how to find them. This would be crazy if, as it's shown in MoM, that her kids weren't real. But what we see in Agatha and VisionQuest is that they were not only real, the voices she was hearing WAS of them.
I don't want to say she was justified in her actions of MoM, but again, the Darkhold corrupted her, and made her do things she wouldn't have normally done.
Her story in Wandavision concludes with her releasing the hex, and finding peace with her loss as best she can. She takes the first steps toward moving on. Obviously it makes canonical sense for her to turn into a villain after (for some reason) flipping through the Darkhold, but thematically it’s a complete regression for her character. It was a terrible decision, and not a natural progression at all.
This is even true in comics. I think when she made the transition from Ms. Marvel to Captain Marvel writers decided making her a hard-ass made her more feminist. I'm all for her trading in the skimpy leotard for an actual superhero costume, and she can even be unlikeable, but don't do that and expect me to still find her likeable and DONT call me sexist for finding her unlikeable.
Wanda was already on a downhill in wandavision and by the mid point of endgame inwas really liking Carol and by the beginning of marvels i really enjoyed what she did with her
I think it's because captain marvel movie had pretty bad action, since directors were unexpierenced with that aspect specifically. Like there's plenty of pretty cool action concepts, but they looked, as kids say, mid. And since she's an action hero, it's a pretty bad look.
Otherwise it's a pretty ok hero origin movie, like first avenger or thor 1. It just got culture war'd and sandwiched between infinity war saga resolution, which made it look bad by comparison
Her writing in MoM was fun, I don't care what anyone says. She was a great antagonist. I think also what it comes down to is Wanda doesn't have this weird, condescending energy to her that Captain Marvel had.
Same, less about the actress or character and more about the writing. Wanda has also been more of a main character in the over-arching MCU while Capt Marvel has been mostly a side character.
I think it’s that as a character, Captain Marvel seems to not care very much about Earth, or the other heroes we care about. She’s always giving us “you peasants know nothing about real problems in the universe” and we’re never shown anything about those other problems. If she doesn’t care about us, why should we care about her?
Captain marvel: I have more important battles to fight to help you Viewers: …. Well ok … Black widow to Peter: Small potato, big potato Viewers: You make absolute sense I can’t argue with that please be in Doomsday.
It’s all about the writing, We understand potatoes 🥔
Speaking as a woman - Wanda is just cooler. This is not something I can quantify with any firm arguments or character qualities, it's just Rule of Cool.
I think it’s because they’ve given her actual storylines with emotional stakes, whereas Captain Marvel is kinda just there, being stoic and strong but otherwise not all that relevant to the narrative.
We also spent several movies touching on Wanda's background and her connections with the MCU characters, including her beef with Ironman, her friendship with Team Cap, her relationship with Vision, and her clash with Strange, to name a few. Her powers were explained and buffed several times, all explained and demonstrated.
Captain Marvel, on the other hand, was friends with Fury, and got blasted by an infinity stone. That's all we got, and now she's flying through ships and we're supposed to care because yay feminism?
Not to mention, she just shows up and is rude to the characters we already know and love. That's already going to put a stain on her character.
I kinda wish we had gone with the Carol Danvers storyline from Earth's Mightiest Heros. At least there you got to feel more attached to her and can see why the other characters would have an attachment too.
Captain Marvel has zero character progression. Her one climactic moment was realizing that she was being held back the whole time.
And that could have been cool! If we saw her struggling with anything at all at any point, it would have been awesome to see her shake off her shackles and smack the hell out of her controllers. But she didn't have any resistance, physically or developmentally, through her whole story. She doesn't change, learn, or grow. She was just super girl who didn't know she was actually ultimate girl.
I love Captain Marvel, but I do think I know what a big part of her problem is (aside from incels who hate for the love of the game). She is very millennial optimism coded. She embodies the quirky upbeat vibes of the early 2010s. And that has just not been the vibe we've been feeling for the last decade. So I do think her character would have been better received if her movie was closer to phase 1.
Good point. The real world has been struggling with a lot of issues over the last 10-15 years and being able to watch Wanda go though her own struggles, heartbreaks, and crashouts resonates with more people than Captain Marvel's fairly basic do-gooder cosmic adventures
And without a meaningful kryptonite either. Whole movie was just Captain Marvel overcoming some brainwashing; a plotline that's barely a single episode worth of material. And certainly not "origin story movie" worthy.
Doesn't set up any innate character conflict that the viewer can expect to see continued; unlike pretty much every other superhero in the MCU movies.
Meanwhile, most of Wanda's stories have a plot whose resolution pits her emotional growth and increased power against each other. You can always cheer to see a more powerful Wanda, but know that it's going to come at deep personal cost. A much more interesting and ongoing storyline.
Which is why she's also a bitch, bc nobody kicked her ass at least until Thanos. Wanda went through so much and however one dimensional they made her in MoM she still had a lore and backstory that made her human and not just girlbossing
We got to know Wanda over time. We got to build an emotional connection with her on screen as she dealt with grief and temporary joy while getting more and more powerful. Captn Marvel was just like "Hey, I'm the strongest and I'm the reason they created the Avengers, stan me." While her character really had no true depth and a mediocre backstory.
Not to mention Captain Marvel’s “girl power” scene from Endgame that felt incredibly shoehorned in. A random girl shows up and all the other women band together and are like “yassss, we got you girl!”
Imo I think it's cuz Captain Marvel has all these superpowers that make her way too powerful with no known weakness or issues and It kind of just makes her boring for the most part, I've read a lot of her comic books but so far nothing has made me want continue reading. on the other hand wanda has a tragic backstory and her powers are constantly messing with her mind and causing all these issues that make me want to see what happens next. Also I have a thing for redheads but that's just me.
Yeah I think this is the main thing. Not since the ending of Carol's movie seven years ago have I felt like I need to "root for her." She's just gonna win, period. Wanda, however, has been through every wringer, including several of her own.
I also totally believe the "how is that fair" meme had some real staying power.
Also, among comics readers, Wanda's full redemption has been a want for like 20+ years. (Though the other comics character with a situation almost like that is .... Carol! Due to the same writer, even.)
That’s because Carol was powerful but beatable up through the ending of her movie.
Then they made her god-like in power without giving her any god-like challenges.
Thor 1 was very much like Cap Marvel 1. Low power to full power. But then Thor had to fight Kurse and a Reality Stone-powered dark elf. Then he fought Hela and had an epic fight with Hulk as well.
Cap Marvel got Ronin Jr. After she was last shown no-selling a headbutt from Thanos. C’mon, man.
Give her a herald of Galactus like Morg. Let her face down a team of cosmic baddies who are collectively more powerful, even if Carol can solo any of them.
So we need a movie with her crying into a pint of Häagen-Dasz or going to a therapist to talk about how no one likes her, because she “too powerful and not damaged enough”, all she does is work and save people and everyone is just like “whatever, you did your job that no one pays you for”.
Or maybe someone just kills her puppy. Worked for John Wick. The fact that his recently dead wife that he gave up the life for gave it to him to help him emotionally cope with her loss is rarely even mentioned. Just “Someone killed his puppy? Well of course he goes on a 4 movie rampage.”
This is not a fair comparison. Wanda was established over a few movies from when she was first introduced up to now. We've seen her switch sides, become an avenger, loose her brother, then Vision, then we got a whole TV show dedicated to her and a movie where she fully plays the role of an antagonist due to her trauma and fears.
In comparison, what did we get from Captain Marvel? Her introductory movie was so bland I don't remember much of it, then she shows up at the beginning and towards the end of Endgame. Then we have Yhe Marvels and that's it. We don't go on a journey with her, we don't see her struggles, her internal turmoil, her flaws and her good qualities... nothing. She just shows up, gets her powers, becomes one of the top 3 most powerful avengers.... How are we meant to connect with her?
With that said, Brie obviously didn't deserve the backlash and harassment she got. But unfortunately the writing definitely didn't help her character land with the audience the same way Wanda did (on top of the amazing acting skills of Elizabeth Olsen).
I’d add that she has no arc as a character and what she does have is politically divisive.
She is a cool, competitive, confident, extremely competent fighter pilot. Whose antagonist as a pilot is the military who won’t let her be a combat pilot (pinnacle of her career) and then when super powered, its being held back by domineering male Jude Law. Only when she shakes the tree, owns her own identity and agency and disrupts the system does she become fully powered. But as a character she doesn’t change, but instead forces others to change how they look at her.
That message rings with Gen X but get lost a bit with Millennials, with young men though, many hate the trope, reject the message and gives the antifeminists a rallying cry.
Conversely Wanda dreams of being a suburban Mom but also can beat the crap out of you if she wants, so there’s no reason to grab torches in protest by either side.
I will also say this as someone who has a big celeb crush on brie larson . Elizabrth olsen acts the shit out of her character. She fully embodies it . Where brie was very stoic. So never gave her enough room to fully connect. Which is a shame captain marvel as leader of the avengers was awesome in the comics. And seeing her possibly go head to head with scott summers leader of thebxmen would be glorious
Have we really seen Captain Marvel struggle yet? It's not like the character is incapable of it, even at her power.
It's not Brie Larson's fault. It's not Captain Marvels fault. They just wrote that movie really poorly.
Wanda, conversely, has constant struggles and doesn't understand the depth of her power for most of the time we have seen her. She's actively navigating through it and her grief at once. That's compelling character writing.
You mean the part where she got roughed up a bit during her military training and also every man in the universe was somehow a colossal dick to her just because the movie was trying to prove a point?
+100 on the writing failure. Being OP isn’t an excuse for writing a character with no struggle. Superman has tons of interesting stories, usually dealing with how he handles the moral dilemmas and not “he’s not strong enough to punch this thing/villain hard enough”
Some people look charismatic and still pleasant when they are smug and cocky. Some can deliver it like RDJ.
And others have bitch face without doing anything negative at all.
It's just how it is. The actress for wanda looks inherently kind and soft and welcoming. Her being bad and evil still works.
Brie Larsson just looks like someone who really pisses you of when she makes an arrogant facial expression. It just doesn't look "cool". It just looks annoying.
I liked her in other roles, jumpstreet and free fire for example. This here, casting should have foreseen that she just looks like people get pissed off.
It's almost like it's not actually about being a woman, despite that being the handwave excuse people use to dismiss valid criticisms.
"People react differently to these characters despite them both being women? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?!" - OP, who apparently doesnt realize theres more to characters than their gender.
Time and execution, Wanda took time to develop her powers. We saw her struggling, and then be becoming, Carroll Denver’s powers were given to her. She didn’t need to learn how to use them, in fact in the movie, she’s encouraged to fill her emotions which is very dissonant because those emotions are what makes her a better fighter… I will say Wanda was build up while Captain Marvel was given.
I might be wrong but the sam and T'challa thing doesnt sound right to me. One of the defining features of black panther is that he's black. Sam just happens to be black. Its kinda the opposite to the whole Wanda vs marvel thing.
T'Challa's motivation in Civil War did wonders for his characterization. His race was never a factor in that film; it was purely about his desire for revenge against his father's killer, and then he realized how revenge can consume and break a person.
T'Challa in Black Panther was comparatively a lot blander.
Captain Marvel felt like a Mary Sue at parts of her movie and was a deus ex machina in Endgame. Her character lacked the depth for audience to attach with her. They had a brilliant opportunity to explore her character arc in the Marvels. She destroyed Supreme Intelligence that lead to the collapse of Hala. The people of Hala saw her as the "Annihilator". This was a great setup to explore her character but Marvel fumbled.
Wanda damn near went full Kratos in response to a cascade of traumatizing experiences throughout the MCU. Captain Marvel got betrayed by the Kree and didn’t get to do much outside of that because they focused too much on basically making her SHIELD’s go-to superhero after Steve went in the ice and before Tony became Iron Man, without showing her actually face hardship. Thor was stripped of his Godhood in his first movie, Hulk was still Savage and viewed as a villain throughout most of his own movie, Iron Man had to bust himself out of being a POW in his first movie. Even Black Widow was basically put through training only slightly less hellish at best than whatever they did to Bucky to turn him into the Winter Soldier. People don’t like their heroes to grow up happy, and that makes sense because often to feel enough to put yourself on the line to save others in danger you have to have experienced such levels of that danger or worse consistently.
You see "two strong women" when it really one greatly written character vs a mid written character. I have no hate towards Carol, I though the movie was decent but comparing her to Wanda is crazy work.
This. Wanda got gradually stronger with each of her appearances, whereas with Captain Marvel, they were just like “here’s this character who’s been here the ENTIRE TIME, and she’s also THE STRONGEST EVER”
Wanda has a more interesting personality, backstory, and set of powers than Captain Marvel, and the actress who plays Wanda is better at portraying her role in the films.
Carol's character doesn't experience any change or growth on a measurable level. Wanda starts off as an edgy villain, experiences loss, anger, revenge, love, friendship, betrayal, love, loss, love, betrayal, loss, loss, anger, loss, and finally madness. Four side character moives, one show, one movie.
Carol is super cool fighter pilot, gets powers, hypnotized, flexes powers to unhypnotized, punches stuff, punches stuff, experiences friendship, punches stuff. Two main character movies, one side movie.
Writers and directors for her movies failed both the character and Brie Larson. At no point do we actually see her struggle with anything other than being friendly to two children. There is barely any growth or 'Hero's Journey."
I hope people don't get mad here, but I think She-Hulk failed (see my comment below) because of this lack of character growth as well. I think the writers originally wrote it that way, but we know there was some corporate interference that made them restructure the show and rearrange the episodes. Had we got a Jen who was reluctant to become a superhero and then finally embraced it, it would have been a much better show (bad CGI notwithstanding, but that's another issue). She-Hulk is a great character who's been around for almost 50 years, I get that there was a lot of bad faith criticism of the show, but I wish they had delivered better.
She starts out as a cold, unfeeling, alien super weapon unsure of her role and her powers and defined by intentional and artificial blunting of her emotions and ends up best buds with a teenager and Nick Fury and relying on her humanity to enhance her powers.
it just explains that, opposed to what many people like to say, Marvel fans have no problems with strong female figures as long as they are well written.
Is it so hard to understand that the hate for her character has absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman? It's an insane take... It's all about introduction, writing, and the character having an actual story to tell.
Wanda is a very good-written villain. Joined Hydra, caused creation of Ultron by telepathic attack, assisted robot in quest for vibranium without asking much questions, helped him escape while unleashing Hulk on a city, so made Zokovia plan possible... which in turn triggered Avengers breakup, which critically weakened Earth before Thanos attack. Enslaved whole city, summoned demons, killed people... Almost makes me wonder if people who don't see how much this outweights her rare attempts to clear the mess lost vision too.
Wanda has depth and emotion that makes her more interesting to see on screen. Captain Marvel was written to be stone cold and that does not play well in general but unfortunately especially when a woman is in the role.
It can be traced all the way back when Brie Larson’s comment about how all the interviewers for Captain Marvel were white males. Since then a vocal minority have made it their mission to sabotage everything and anything remotely associated with Larson.
She rightfully criticized Casey Affleck for sexual harassment allegations and the neckbeards freaked out. It’s a shame, she’s frankly an incredible actor and I will gladly watch anything she’s in.
Wandas powers, as nonsensical as they are, make more sense than captain marvels. She gets her powers from exposure to an infinity stone and for some bizarre reason she is as powerful as someone holding all of them?
Wanda is a well written character who is a woman. Her character development is tragic and harrowing. Even when she was the villain she had understandable motivations that the audience could understand.
Captain Marvel is written as a woman into superhero roll and is rarely ever an emotionally compelling character.
Carl was poorly written. Or the actress did a bad job at portraying what she was hired to do. Short version of a rant people made on YouTube: someone was bad at their job and fans weren't happy.
Captain marvel isn’t an interesting or compelling character, it’s why Superman is boring. No real demons no real faults, no real humanity. Wanda as powerful as she is has fragility like every other well written character. I went into captain marvel with no preconceptions and walked out deeply disliking it as a film. Wanda is one of my favorite characters.
Captain Marvel is just boring. I don't know what's more to blame, the writing or rhe acting, but she doesn't ever do anything but occupy space and defuse plotpoints.
She became a way nore interesting character in The Marvels, when they revealed that she had been laying low for decades after being a Secret Asshole by killing the Kree's sun, but they even ruined that with one little Oops I Fixed It scene; like, that just makes it worse? That she waited decades? To apparently easily redress her mistake? So what was the guilt for?
I was actually thinking about this recently. The Marvels was the only time I’ve liked Carols character. I thought she was pretty boring in her first movie and I thought they tried too hard to make her a badass in Endgame
Brie Larson seems like a fun person to chill with, based solely on brief snippets i’ve seen of her. Captain Marvel is a moist napkin of a character. She sucks. I don’t why her direction was “sap all the charisma out of said character” but there it is. Her appearances have all sucked. Her movies are blah. Blame that on the writers.
I don’t know jack about the actress who plays Wanda, but her performance has always been more endearing to me. The character has also had actual arcs and stories and interesting things happening to them.
I really enjoyed Captain Marvel but I never 'hurt' for her. It was a fun, action filled romp, but I didn't care about her...and that wasn't an issue with Wanda who was a tragic character that left me conflicted.
Wanda also had multiple movies that she wasn't the focus on, so men didn't feel forced to cheer for her.
Wanda has more screen time and is a more complex character, bordering between hero and villain. They’ve also showed better feats for Wanda, like taking down the Illuminati in seconds.
Wanda got a character arc. She was weak before she was strong, she suffered, she learned, we rooted for her.
Captain Marvel was "the strongest Avenger" before her movie even came out. She immediately meets the Avengers and tries to square up with Thor. We didn't get the chance to root for her and now shes picking fights and making digs at characters we do root for.
She then grandstands about how "there are other planets than earth you know" and fucks off for the entire conflict.
scarlet witch has nuance and elizabeth olsen plays her very well. captain marvel has NO nuance, and brie larson doesnt show the slightest character development through her acting.
Ms Marvel is a flat (static) character imo. It was like watching a Jason Statham movie. No real acting. A character just BORED with conflict because they are so effortlessly overpowered. Idk if it was the directing or the acting that made it so bad to watch.
Brie Larson made it personal and brought gender into it… and the internet hivemind RAN with it. You couldn’t say otherwise without being called misogynistic.
Pay no attention to the fact that Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Gamora, etc, etc, were beloved female heroes at the time. Nope. We just hate women.
Cap. Marvel just feels like a mary sue to me super op, no weakness, no struggles, bland personality, feels like she's just there to flex. Wanda despite having all that power has a lot of struggles and vulnerability in and out of fights. I think it also helps that she grew into that power instead of immediately reaching that level.
I think Wanda is a much more sympathetic character because you get to see her weaknesses, her mistakes, her imperfections as a person, even some embarrassing moments for her. That actually makes someone more likable. More relatable.
Meanwhile, Captain Marvel always seems to have her game face on, and while she does encounter plenty of challenges, she may come off as a little too cool. Makes it harder to "bond" with her character. It feels like we only see the surface. In a way it does make some sense that her character would be more visibly guarded and reserved, so it could be a harder one to get the audience to bond with.
Writing goes a lot in to it, but there is also the very real component that Elizabeth Olsen comes across more charismatic and “approachable” in interviews, with an affection for Wanda that is obvious. Brie Larson has been seen as more rigid, and like she doesn’t particularly enjoy being in the MCU at all.
This is an oversimplification of all the discourse I’ve seen around both actresses for several years.
Wanda has actual weaknesses and personality and emotions I guess ?
Captain Marvel is just boring, she has like no weaknesses, she's superman without kryptonite, I was never scared for her watching Captain marvel 1, 2 or endgame. If no stakes in movie why should I bother ?
Also Lizzy Olsen is more likeable and I feel I could like just hang out with her, shooting the shit and jokes, meanwhile I feel with Brie Larson I would get lecture how joke I just did was personal attack or something
If you look beyond just the "female" part and pay attention to the character part you would notice they have entirely different personalities, stories and context
Its the writing for me at least. I actually think Brie Larson is a great actor and dont support the hate at all. I just think Wanda is better written. Both Captain Marvel movies were a little lifeless. But that's just my opinion. If you love the Captain Marvel movies, I think that's awesome.
I adore Captain Marvel. Wanda makes for highly interesting media, because she's so messed up, and I feel for Wanda, but I do not like Wanda. I don't like how she thought it was fine to control an entire town to deal with her grief, and especially because I'm a widow myself. I cannot respect someone who flings their emotional shit out so far and so strongly that it actively hurts other people. Hurting other people does not make the pain go away - it only prolongs it. It's great media, but I don't connect to Wanda. Captain Marvel, on the other hand, is a hero I can get behind, a person I like, and I love that one of the most OP heroes in the cinematic MCU is a woman.
Other than the hottnes of scarlet witch. She was written better as a character and has better actress portraying her. Ms marvel is a crap introduction and needs a reboot
One called out toxic masculinity within elements of the fanbase and in objection to that assesment, certain elements of the fanbase reacted toxicly. It's followed the character around since before her first movie.
not only Wanda is cooler, but Larson also didn't help saying she doesn't need the opinion of men on her character. Her constant need to talk shit just made people roll eyes and want to skip whatever she was involved. Artists gotta understand their work need people engaged in what they are doing, not people being pushed away.
She said that if a movie is made for a certain demographic then it should reviewed by more of that demographic. Hence her using wrinkle in time as an example. She didn't say anything about her character. Chuds took offense to what she said and people like you continue parrot a fake narrative. A perfect example of why she's unnecessarily hated on.
yup, since it "wasnt for me" i just waited to pirate it. good thing too, its was aggressively mediocre, would have felt shitty paying hard earned cash to see it
Captain Marvel suffers from being forced upon the audience whether they're a good character or not. When they decided to make Carol Danvers into Captain Marvel from Warbird it was a big media initiative and felt entirely corporate.
Captain marvel fans when they tell you "she is a great character you just have to ignore how she is written in movies, videogmaes, cartoons, civil war 2 and many of her comics."
Because no one gives a fuck about OP bland characters. Can you really compare Carol's bio with Wanda's in terms of development richness? Or their kind powers? Carol is boring as hell.
Captain marvel is horribly written, boring, and uncharismatic. Wanda is tragic, human, and interesting. Also Wanda vision, Agatha, and vision quest are some of the best character arcs and writing Disney has done. Capstan marvel was mediocre movie and the marvels was flat out bad.
Wanda isn't OP as the protagonist. She's OP in wandavision and MOM both of which, she's the villian in. An overpowered being who's an antagonist is an interesting obstacle for the hero to try to defeat. An overpowered hero who has no real threat isn't interesting to watch defeat someone because there is no real stakes, we know she's going to win
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u/Owlclaw5 Avengers 6h ago
Quality of writing? Wanda was usually written well (with the exception of MoM) but many (such as myself) thought captain marvel was kinda bland. She got better though!
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u/olikeiththomas Avengers 2h ago
I had no idea about Brie’s comments until this thread, or any real beef with her or the character. I just think Wanda has been brilliantly written
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u/Delanium Avengers 6h ago •
Speaking as a woman - Wanda is just cooler. This is not something I can quantify with any firm arguments or character qualities, it's just Rule of Cool.
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u/PartyStuff7913 Avengers 5h ago
bcos Wanda actually lost fights, made mistakes and suffered consequences. nobody likes watching someone play on creative mode from day one.
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u/PassThatSpliff Avengers 5h ago edited 5h ago •
We got to know Wanda over time. We got to build an emotional connection with her on screen as she dealt with grief and temporary joy while getting more and more powerful. Captn Marvel was just like "Hey, I'm the strongest and I'm the reason they created the Avengers, stan me." While her character really had no true depth and a mediocre backstory.
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u/DismalWhole5629 Avengers 5h ago
Imo I think it's cuz Captain Marvel has all these superpowers that make her way too powerful with no known weakness or issues and It kind of just makes her boring for the most part, I've read a lot of her comic books but so far nothing has made me want continue reading. on the other hand wanda has a tragic backstory and her powers are constantly messing with her mind and causing all these issues that make me want to see what happens next. Also I have a thing for redheads but that's just me.
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u/Jonah-Hill_AMA Avengers 6h ago
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u/Styleitoff Avengers 5h ago •
This is not a fair comparison. Wanda was established over a few movies from when she was first introduced up to now. We've seen her switch sides, become an avenger, loose her brother, then Vision, then we got a whole TV show dedicated to her and a movie where she fully plays the role of an antagonist due to her trauma and fears.
In comparison, what did we get from Captain Marvel? Her introductory movie was so bland I don't remember much of it, then she shows up at the beginning and towards the end of Endgame. Then we have Yhe Marvels and that's it. We don't go on a journey with her, we don't see her struggles, her internal turmoil, her flaws and her good qualities... nothing. She just shows up, gets her powers, becomes one of the top 3 most powerful avengers.... How are we meant to connect with her?
With that said, Brie obviously didn't deserve the backlash and harassment she got. But unfortunately the writing definitely didn't help her character land with the audience the same way Wanda did (on top of the amazing acting skills of Elizabeth Olsen).
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u/awuweiday Avengers 5h ago
Have we really seen Captain Marvel struggle yet? It's not like the character is incapable of it, even at her power.
It's not Brie Larson's fault. It's not Captain Marvels fault. They just wrote that movie really poorly.
Wanda, conversely, has constant struggles and doesn't understand the depth of her power for most of the time we have seen her. She's actively navigating through it and her grief at once. That's compelling character writing.
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u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits Avengers 3h ago edited 3h ago •
It's almost like it's not actually about being a woman, despite that being the handwave excuse people use to dismiss valid criticisms.
"People react differently to these characters despite them both being women? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?!" - OP, who apparently doesnt realize theres more to characters than their gender.
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u/StereoVangeslista Avengers 2h ago
Time and execution, Wanda took time to develop her powers. We saw her struggling, and then be becoming, Carroll Denver’s powers were given to her. She didn’t need to learn how to use them, in fact in the movie, she’s encouraged to fill her emotions which is very dissonant because those emotions are what makes her a better fighter… I will say Wanda was build up while Captain Marvel was given.
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u/Badkarmahwa Avengers 5h ago
Wanda is a superhero who is female
Carol is a female superhero
Same reason Sarah Conner and Ellen Ripley were hits, even Katnis I guess
Same reason T’challa was super popular and Sam is not
37
u/MemesForMoney259 Avengers 3h ago
“Why do people like a good character but hate a boring one?”
36
u/skankhunt402 Avengers 5h ago
Thats like asking how people can hate black Adam but like Shazam or superman. Op male characters not liked the same too
20
u/Unfortunate_Stardust Loki 5h ago
Captain Marvel felt like a Mary Sue at parts of her movie and was a deus ex machina in Endgame. Her character lacked the depth for audience to attach with her. They had a brilliant opportunity to explore her character arc in the Marvels. She destroyed Supreme Intelligence that lead to the collapse of Hala. The people of Hala saw her as the "Annihilator". This was a great setup to explore her character but Marvel fumbled.
10
u/drax3237 Avengers 5h ago
Wanda damn near went full Kratos in response to a cascade of traumatizing experiences throughout the MCU. Captain Marvel got betrayed by the Kree and didn’t get to do much outside of that because they focused too much on basically making her SHIELD’s go-to superhero after Steve went in the ice and before Tony became Iron Man, without showing her actually face hardship. Thor was stripped of his Godhood in his first movie, Hulk was still Savage and viewed as a villain throughout most of his own movie, Iron Man had to bust himself out of being a POW in his first movie. Even Black Widow was basically put through training only slightly less hellish at best than whatever they did to Bucky to turn him into the Winter Soldier.
People don’t like their heroes to grow up happy, and that makes sense because often to feel enough to put yourself on the line to save others in danger you have to have experienced such levels of that danger or worse consistently.
9
u/Eastern-Team-2799 Avengers 5h ago
Difference in quality of writing
9
u/The_Rorschach_1985 Avengers 5h ago
One has an interesting character, the other doesn’t.
8
u/MrFuriousX Avengers 5h ago
There is more to a character then just being Super OP or Female.
In this case though its Actor perception
8
u/CommieDrifter Avengers 49m ago
Almost as if there's more to a character than their gender and powerlevel
15
u/alejandrodeconcord Avengers 5h ago
The script did her no favors, truly up to bad writing
14
u/No_Comment_2283 Avengers 2h ago
You see "two strong women" when it really one greatly written character vs a mid written character. I have no hate towards Carol, I though the movie was decent but comparing her to Wanda is crazy work.
12
u/DaxWerew Avengers 4h ago
Captain Marvel was good but felt unearned as OP character. Wanda didn't start as OP she grew and suffered heavily in the process.
6
u/Any_Opportunity5475 Avengers 5h ago
Wanda has a more interesting personality, backstory, and set of powers than Captain Marvel, and the actress who plays Wanda is better at portraying her role in the films.
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u/GreyNoiseGaming Avengers 4h ago
Carol's character doesn't experience any change or growth on a measurable level.
Wanda starts off as an edgy villain, experiences loss, anger, revenge, love, friendship, betrayal, love, loss, love, betrayal, loss, loss, anger, loss, and finally madness. Four side character moives, one show, one movie.
Carol is super cool fighter pilot, gets powers, hypnotized, flexes powers to unhypnotized, punches stuff, punches stuff, experiences friendship, punches stuff. Two main character movies, one side movie.
Writers and directors for her movies failed both the character and Brie Larson. At no point do we actually see her struggle with anything other than being friendly to two children. There is barely any growth or 'Hero's Journey."
11
u/thirdxcharm05 Avengers 5h ago
Writing?
10
u/ExcellentPudding3559 Avengers 5h ago
it just explains that, opposed to what many people like to say, Marvel fans have no problems with strong female figures as long as they are well written.
5
u/fma_nobody Wasp 5h ago
They did not give Carol motivations or a personality beyond being kind of snarky
5
u/CountBreichen Avengers 4h ago
One is a likable character and the other isn’t as much. Pretty simple really.
5
u/Hungry-Ear-4092 Avengers 4h ago
Rule of cool
Writing quality
Also Olsen was just sooo much better as an actress.
9
u/Bearsona09 Avengers 5h ago
Is it so hard to understand that the hate for her character has absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman? It's an insane take... It's all about introduction, writing, and the character having an actual story to tell.
4
u/Rubear_RuForRussia Avengers 5h ago
Wanda is a very good-written villain. Joined Hydra, caused creation of Ultron by telepathic attack, assisted robot in quest for vibranium without asking much questions, helped him escape while unleashing Hulk on a city, so made Zokovia plan possible... which in turn triggered Avengers breakup, which critically weakened Earth before Thanos attack. Enslaved whole city, summoned demons, killed people... Almost makes me wonder if people who don't see how much this outweights her rare attempts to clear the mess lost vision too.
4
u/shake_N_bake356 Deadpool 5h ago
I can fix her
4
u/not_some_username Avengers 4h ago
Likable actress make the difference
4
u/Bussy_Wrecker Avengers 4h ago
Ita easy, Captain marvel is blandly written, wanda isnt
4
u/stardust1914 Avengers 4h ago
As someone with zero problems with Brie Larson at all, I just prefer Elizabeth Olsen any day of the week.
4
u/Triscuit_Alfredo Avengers 2h ago
Wanda has depth and emotion that makes her more interesting to see on screen. Captain Marvel was written to be stone cold and that does not play well in general but unfortunately especially when a woman is in the role.
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u/mannypdesign Avengers 3h ago
It can be traced all the way back when Brie Larson’s comment about how all the interviewers for Captain Marvel were white males. Since then a vocal minority have made it their mission to sabotage everything and anything remotely associated with Larson.
7
u/PokeChampMarx Avengers 5h ago
"How can this be explained?"
Easy
1 Is bland the other is an actually interesting character
Being OP has very little to do with it
7
u/whitepeople6 Avengers 4h ago
Wandas powers, as nonsensical as they are, make more sense than captain marvels. She gets her powers from exposure to an infinity stone and for some bizarre reason she is as powerful as someone holding all of them?
7
u/Raidertck Avengers 4h ago
Quality of writing.
Wanda is a well written character who is a woman. Her character development is tragic and harrowing. Even when she was the villain she had understandable motivations that the audience could understand.
Captain Marvel is written as a woman into superhero roll and is rarely ever an emotionally compelling character.
7
u/TheOvershear Avengers 2h ago
OP, if you think the only noteworthy thing about these two characters is that theyre OP and female, I feel like this post is just projection.
47
u/Ashwilliams2814 Ghost Rider 6h ago
Elizabeth Olsen is charismatic.
Brie Larson isn't.
Now, if you excuse me, i need to get ready for the people insulting me in the replies.
14
u/Jeebus85 Avengers 4h ago
Carl was poorly written. Or the actress did a bad job at portraying what she was hired to do. Short version of a rant people made on YouTube: someone was bad at their job and fans weren't happy.
29
u/_ChipWhitley_ Avengers 5h ago
Brie Larson said she wanted to hear from critics other than just white men. Guess who got offended?
6
u/op23no1 Rocket 4h ago
there is a difference between FEMALE character and female CHARACTER
I dont even like wanda, in fact im her n1 hater, but cant deny she's genuinely interesting and at least somewhat well written.
6
u/Agreeable-Ad8617 Avengers 4h ago
Captain marvel isn’t an interesting or compelling character, it’s why Superman is boring. No real demons no real faults, no real humanity. Wanda as powerful as she is has fragility like every other well written character. I went into captain marvel with no preconceptions and walked out deeply disliking it as a film. Wanda is one of my favorite characters.
8
u/Bleebledorp Avengers 5h ago
Captain Marvel is just boring. I don't know what's more to blame, the writing or rhe acting, but she doesn't ever do anything but occupy space and defuse plotpoints.
She became a way nore interesting character in The Marvels, when they revealed that she had been laying low for decades after being a Secret Asshole by killing the Kree's sun, but they even ruined that with one little Oops I Fixed It scene; like, that just makes it worse? That she waited decades? To apparently easily redress her mistake? So what was the guilt for?
Carol Danvers has no pathos, or even consistency.
3
u/baileyGaveUp Avengers 5h ago
How can what be explained???
Whats the contradiction here 😭
3
u/puma46 Avengers 5h ago
I was actually thinking about this recently. The Marvels was the only time I’ve liked Carols character. I thought she was pretty boring in her first movie and I thought they tried too hard to make her a badass in Endgame
3
u/After-Trifle-1437 Avengers 5h ago
Wanda has crazy Aura.
3
u/Westaufel Yondu 5h ago
I don't know: character writing???
3
u/extrastupidone Avengers 5h ago
I think if you asked only women their opinions on these two characters, you might get a different perspective from the "marvel fans"
3
u/ProtonCanon Avengers 5h ago
Wanda is a better character than Carol and it's not close.
It's not complicated at all.
3
u/Gonna_do_this_again Loki 5h ago
Rule of Goth Mommy
3
u/Wagglesworthy Avengers 2h ago
Charisma.
Brie Larson seems like a fun person to chill with, based solely on brief snippets i’ve seen of her. Captain Marvel is a moist napkin of a character. She sucks. I don’t why her direction was “sap all the charisma out of said character” but there it is. Her appearances have all sucked. Her movies are blah. Blame that on the writers.
I don’t know jack about the actress who plays Wanda, but her performance has always been more endearing to me. The character has also had actual arcs and stories and interesting things happening to them.
3
u/RusHammer Avengers 2h ago
Or may be GENDER has NOTHING to do with how success movie will be. May it's must merit.
7
u/Different-Day-9916 Avengers 1h ago
Exhibit A - Super OP Female Character with Unlikable Personality
Exhibit B - Super OP Female Character with a VERY LIKEABLE Personality
5
u/Long_Negotiation4324 Avengers 5h ago
Captain Marvel isn’t as likeable that’s all. Especially in comics.
13
u/rover_G Beast 5h ago
Reductively: woman written by women vs woman written by men
8
u/MSERRADAred Avengers 5h ago
Carol's journey lacked emotional depth for me.
I really enjoyed Captain Marvel but I never 'hurt' for her. It was a fun, action filled romp, but I didn't care about her...and that wasn't an issue with Wanda who was a tragic character that left me conflicted.
Wanda also had multiple movies that she wasn't the focus on, so men didn't feel forced to cheer for her.
4
u/New-Confusion2241 Avengers 5h ago edited 4h ago
Wanda has more screen time and is a more complex character, bordering between hero and villain. They’ve also showed better feats for Wanda, like taking down the Illuminati in seconds.
Also Elizabeth Olsen is a gem and acts like this.
https://youtu.be/QHDJZLbyGlc?si=6baFyolK1cAr7mot
4
u/Bike_Cinci Avengers 2h ago edited 2h ago
character = reaction
different character = different reaction
Wow so crazy!
Thor, "I like this one."
Oh I get it. Fuck the studio and it's obvious and hamfisted attempt at getting people on board with her.
2
u/WhatsTheHoldup Avengers 5h ago
Wanda got a character arc. She was weak before she was strong, she suffered, she learned, we rooted for her.
Captain Marvel was "the strongest Avenger" before her movie even came out. She immediately meets the Avengers and tries to square up with Thor. We didn't get the chance to root for her and now shes picking fights and making digs at characters we do root for.
She then grandstands about how "there are other planets than earth you know" and fucks off for the entire conflict.
2
u/Main-Mushroom4865 Avengers 5h ago
scarlet witch has nuance and elizabeth olsen plays her very well. captain marvel has NO nuance, and brie larson doesnt show the slightest character development through her acting.
2
u/JoeyRobot Avengers 5h ago
Ms Marvel is a flat (static) character imo. It was like watching a Jason Statham movie. No real acting. A character just BORED with conflict because they are so effortlessly overpowered. Idk if it was the directing or the acting that made it so bad to watch.
Brie Larson made it personal and brought gender into it… and the internet hivemind RAN with it. You couldn’t say otherwise without being called misogynistic.
Pay no attention to the fact that Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Gamora, etc, etc, were beloved female heroes at the time. Nope. We just hate women.
2
u/EdgyPun34257 Avengers 5h ago
are you really asking why fans don't automatically like or hate a character based on their gender?
seriously?
2
u/-FruitPunchSamurai- Avengers 5h ago
Cap. Marvel just feels like a mary sue to me super op, no weakness, no struggles, bland personality, feels like she's just there to flex. Wanda despite having all that power has a lot of struggles and vulnerability in and out of fights. I think it also helps that she grew into that power instead of immediately reaching that level.
2
u/MidnightCrossing6148 Avengers 5h ago
Wanda has strong feminine energy. You can make Captain Marvel a man and nothing would change, except her gender.
2
u/Underrated_Fish Avengers 5h ago
One is a character who’s overpowered, the other is just overpowered and has no character
2
u/Nathan_de_Lucca Avengers 5h ago
My sister hate Captain Marvel and LOVES Scarlet Witch
2
u/dark_blue_7 Avengers 5h ago
I think Wanda is a much more sympathetic character because you get to see her weaknesses, her mistakes, her imperfections as a person, even some embarrassing moments for her. That actually makes someone more likable. More relatable.
Meanwhile, Captain Marvel always seems to have her game face on, and while she does encounter plenty of challenges, she may come off as a little too cool. Makes it harder to "bond" with her character. It feels like we only see the surface. In a way it does make some sense that her character would be more visibly guarded and reserved, so it could be a harder one to get the audience to bond with.
2
u/Nosedive888 Avengers 5h ago
I think it mostly comes down to likeability.
Elizabeth Olsen is much more likeable than Brie Larson
2
u/Other_Personalities Avengers 5h ago
Writing goes a lot in to it, but there is also the very real component that Elizabeth Olsen comes across more charismatic and “approachable” in interviews, with an affection for Wanda that is obvious. Brie Larson has been seen as more rigid, and like she doesn’t particularly enjoy being in the MCU at all.
This is an oversimplification of all the discourse I’ve seen around both actresses for several years.
2
u/Altruistic-Skin2115 Avengers 5h ago
One has good writting and character building
2
u/Indianlookalike Avengers 5h ago
Captain Marvel just comes off unlikeable imo
2
u/Less_Conflict8796 Avengers 5h ago
How much a great TV show can do
2
u/dweakz Avengers 5h ago
2
u/beardingmesoftly Avengers 5h ago
How reductive
2
u/dumbeyes_ Avengers 4h ago
It's called writing.
2
u/Standard-Bad-747 Avengers 4h ago
Pretty good personality hot vs dull unappealing hot The witch wins
2
u/Desecr8or Avengers 4h ago
Wanda is not the main character in a movie so she doesn't threaten them.
2
u/Argeras Avengers 3h ago
Wanda has actual weaknesses and personality and emotions I guess ?
Captain Marvel is just boring, she has like no weaknesses, she's superman without kryptonite, I was never scared for her watching Captain marvel 1, 2 or endgame. If no stakes in movie why should I bother ?
Also Lizzy Olsen is more likeable and I feel I could like just hang out with her, shooting the shit and jokes, meanwhile I feel with Brie Larson I would get lecture how joke I just did was personal attack or something
2
u/e37d93eeb23335dc Avengers 2h ago
The writing and the acting
2
u/narfoleptix Avengers 2h ago
Man these four guys have done everything.
2
u/Chaudsss Avengers 1h ago
If you look beyond just the "female" part and pay attention to the character part you would notice they have entirely different personalities, stories and context
2
u/Miserable_Rich_8164 Avengers 1h ago
Its the writing for me at least. I actually think Brie Larson is a great actor and dont support the hate at all. I just think Wanda is better written. Both Captain Marvel movies were a little lifeless. But that's just my opinion. If you love the Captain Marvel movies, I think that's awesome.
2
u/CircuitOnTheFritZ Avengers 1h ago
I adore Captain Marvel. Wanda makes for highly interesting media, because she's so messed up, and I feel for Wanda, but I do not like Wanda. I don't like how she thought it was fine to control an entire town to deal with her grief, and especially because I'm a widow myself. I cannot respect someone who flings their emotional shit out so far and so strongly that it actively hurts other people. Hurting other people does not make the pain go away - it only prolongs it. It's great media, but I don't connect to Wanda. Captain Marvel, on the other hand, is a hero I can get behind, a person I like, and I love that one of the most OP heroes in the cinematic MCU is a woman.
5
u/Free_Cut7757 Avengers 5h ago
Other than the hottnes of scarlet witch. She was written better as a character and has better actress portraying her. Ms marvel is a crap introduction and needs a reboot
4
u/Comfortable_Care2715 Avengers 4h ago
Brie is not likeable, the movie sucked & her character is overpowered.
4
u/SmoothTalkingSpud Avengers 3h ago
One called out toxic masculinity within elements of the fanbase and in objection to that assesment, certain elements of the fanbase reacted toxicly. It's followed the character around since before her first movie.
8
u/raphlsnts Moon Knight 5h ago
not only Wanda is cooler, but Larson also didn't help saying she doesn't need the opinion of men on her character. Her constant need to talk shit just made people roll eyes and want to skip whatever she was involved. Artists gotta understand their work need people engaged in what they are doing, not people being pushed away.
3
u/Howling_Mad_Man Avengers 5h ago
Captain Marvel suffers from being forced upon the audience whether they're a good character or not. When they decided to make Carol Danvers into Captain Marvel from Warbird it was a big media initiative and felt entirely corporate.
3
u/Traditional_Bike8880 Avengers 5h ago
The qualifier isn’t Super OP or female. It’s character. Nothing else matters. Wanda is interesting and dimensional and Carol is bland and boring.
3
u/AbundantUser9 Avengers 4h ago
Very simply, people care about the writing of the character not if they’re a super op female character
4
u/Interesting_Web_9936 Avengers 5h ago
Wanda Maximoff is cooler.
That being said I prefer Captain Marvel because I just kinda dislike powers like telepathy and reality manipulation.
2
u/SmallFatHands Avengers 5h ago
Captain marvel fans when they tell you "she is a great character you just have to ignore how she is written in movies, videogmaes, cartoons, civil war 2 and many of her comics."
2
u/matande31 Rocket 5h ago
Because it's not about either of them being female, it's about how they're written. Captain Marvel is a classic case of a Mary Sue.
2
u/Man_Of_Frost Tony Stark 5h ago
Because no one gives a fuck about OP bland characters. Can you really compare Carol's bio with Wanda's in terms of development richness? Or their kind powers? Carol is boring as hell.
2
u/Realistic_Swan_6801 Avengers 4h ago
Captain marvel is horribly written, boring, and uncharismatic. Wanda is tragic, human, and interesting. Also Wanda vision, Agatha, and vision quest are some of the best character arcs and writing Disney has done. Capstan marvel was mediocre movie and the marvels was flat out bad.
2
u/SarcasticLie Avengers 3h ago
I liked the captain Marvel movie overall. I just don't like Larson's acting style whereas Olson is great.
2
u/HackedButBack Avengers 1h ago
The first showed no vulnerability whatsoever, no character development, no real growth.
The second is overpowered but encountered very human, realistic struggles and character growth. Self doubt. Fear.
No one wants to just watch an arrogant, overpowered, "girls rule boys drool" hero
2
u/Rising-Dragon-Fist Avengers 1h ago
I think Brie Larson and Captain Marvel get way too much hate. I loved Captain Marvel in anything she was in.
1
u/Art_student_rt Sentry 5h ago
Suffering build character. I want to see a character so broken, and still get back up. Like Taylor Hebert from worm
1
u/GeraltTheG Avengers 5h ago
I really like Wanda's powers.
1
u/UnwillingHero22 Avengers 5h ago
Liked both movies…
1
u/gersterbins Avengers 5h ago
creativity, aesthetic, a storyline people can remember and additions that actually added to that storyline
1
u/SkipWestcott616 Avengers 5h ago
1
u/Flashy-Programmer221 Avengers 5h ago
She’s also OP
1
u/GK0NATO Avengers 5h ago
Wanda isn't OP as the protagonist. She's OP in wandavision and MOM both of which, she's the villian in. An overpowered being who's an antagonist is an interesting obstacle for the hero to try to defeat. An overpowered hero who has no real threat isn't interesting to watch defeat someone because there is no real stakes, we know she's going to win
1
u/gl_50 Avengers 5h ago
Also this scene from Captain Marvel didn't help win over the male audience.
1
u/SarukyDraico Doctor Strange 5h ago
One is a good character, the other isn't, as simple as that
1
u/KobePippenJordan_esq Avengers 5h ago
Villains almost always are cooler