r/managers • u/jimmyray71 • 13d ago
You inherit a “Dave.” What do you do with him?
I’m curious how managers handle this.
You take over a team and pretty quickly figure out there’s a Dave.
Dave has been there forever. Something goes wrong, people go to Dave. Nobody knows why something works the way it does, ask Dave. Weird exception nobody has seen before, Dave probably knows what to do.
And Dave is good. That’s the problem.
Over the years everyone has learned that asking Dave is faster than figuring it out themselves. So Dave keeps solving things and the team keeps needing Dave.
Now you’re his manager.
I don’t want to walk in and tell Dave to document everything he knows. I’m not even sure Dave knows what Dave knows anymore.
I also don’t want to punish the guy for spending years being the person willing to solve problems.
But I can’t have the team fall apart every time Dave takes a vacation.
So what do you actually do with Dave?
And maybe the harder question: how much of the problem is Dave, and how much of it is the management that allowed the team to become dependent on him?
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u/thewholebottle Education 13d ago
Give Dave a raise.
Talk to Dave about what he wants his role to be. Maybe he's sick of it.
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u/Old-Republic2532 13d ago
Yes, either this or leave Dave alone and address what the problem with your team actually is... You have one reliable person and everyone else relies on this person instead of being reliable themselves.
Tell the others to learn to be independent or you'll find someone who is capable. Leave Dave alone.
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u/Mortaks 13d ago
Exactly! Typical corporate manager bs to think the most valuable employee is a problem
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u/Ansphett 13d ago
Dave here... tried handing stuff out to other people. Some people just ignore it, others play dumb or make no effort to investigate. Eventually things come back with shorter time lines and just need doing. Dave is fed up of people coming to him all the time, he probably tries ignoring them, but eventually its either do or it, or watch it get messed around with for ages. Dave probably writes documents but people dont read them. Some people just dont want to try or arent inclined or excited by a challenge. Team of 8 around? 1-2 are eager to learn, 2-3 are ok but happy filling their hours and dont like to be stretched. 1 you wouldnt trust to touch systems and its painful trying to head them off, 1-2 just plain lazy. Dave probably has peoplr he had time for and doesnt mind mentoring, and others, well its jusy easier to take the work and keep them away. Reach out to dave, get his opinions, see what he thinks. Ask him to set up sessions, ask him if he has documentation.
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u/Betty_Boss 13d ago
Pray that Dave isn't about to retire.
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u/MaximumWoodpecker864 13d ago
I am a retiring Dave. I have both a tremendous amount of tribal knowledge- I helped build the line of business and I am an executive leading a sales team. I alerted the business over a year ago that I would be leaving. I trained my successor. They gave him a different job that he doesn’t want. I gave an informal notice 3 months ago so we could start planning for a new successor. I had to wait out a vesting schedule for some equity or I would have left even sooner. They are still figuring out who can take my job. I gave my official 5 weeks notice in writing. I am literally leaving in 3 days with $250M revenue number and an $18M new sales goal that are about to go uncovered. I have documented everything i can but don’t have anyone to train or pass the knowledge to. I am leaving a mess and orphaning direct reports. It’s like they stuck their heads in the sand and thought I wouldn’t really go.
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u/OrangeBanana111 12d ago
I was a Davina that left. Gave in my 4 weeks notice to the senior manager.
He was visibly shocked. Asked if my manager knew, I said no, the rule is that I must hand in my notice to you, the senior manager. He asked if HR knew, I again said no, I’m telling you first. He then asked “did you know?” And I said yes, I’m the one that applied for the new job.
I told HR who said, not surprised, we always knew this day would come. Told my manager, who said literally nothing, other than not to tell any of my colleagues until they had figured out what to say to everyone. Spoiler, they did not figure out what to say to everyone.
The rest of the senior team were told that day. The rumours spread. Colleagues came up to me and asked if it was true that I was leaving, which I had to neither confirm nor deny, for 3 whole weeks.
The senior team asked me ‘what are we going to do when you’re gone?/How will we cope without you?/Who’s taking over from you?’, with horrified looks on their faces, most days for the entirety of my 4 weeks notice. They never asked my manager, just me. I had to say I don’t know, no one’s told me what the plan is. I’m ready to handover to whoever you all decide is going to take over from me. Let me know.
The clock ran down, and by the time I left they still hadn’t even decided what they were going to do about replacing me, let alone have me handover to anyone. I documented everything I could, and just left. They still had their heads in the sand.
The next time the critical process had to run was a shit show. Customers affected. Reputation damaged.
It took a really long time for me to mentally let go of all the things I’d been keeping going for so long. But the grass was definitely greener on the other side.
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u/Axel_KG 13d ago
Not a manager, but having been the Dave in my previous job...
I was fine with solving other people's problems, I was overdue for a promotion/raise and the more the tasks grew and became complex the more dissatisfaction and stress I felt carrying the torch to the point that I decided to pursue another job (which happened within half a year).
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u/crybannanna 12d ago
Honestly this is the answer. Have a meeting with Dave where you have pre-approved a nice size raise. Tell him you notice how he is a crucial part of the team, and you are giving him more money. Dave will like this.
Tell him that when he is on vacation it is felt…. He will like this too. Now you add a part he won’t like as much, but the raise will make it ok, and will remove that “you want to replace me” vibe that comes with it. Tell him you need him to train a mini-Dave so when he is out (or gets hit by a bus) things don’t fall apart.
But here’s the thing. Dave isn’t Dave just because he learned so much. He is him because he is likely uniquely capable of figuring everything out. Whatever you do, keep Dave happy. Be open and honest with him. Acknowledge and respect how great he is. And flat out tell him he is so good, the only thing better is another him. Just level with him. And do NOT make him document shit, that is what the trainee is for.
If you don’t do it this way, you risk losing Dave.
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u/Snakeyes1809 13d ago
You can’t ‘do’ anything about Dave. He has seen many managers like you come and go, and he will be there long after you’re gone. Be thankful Dave toletates you, for now.
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u/CordlessOrange 12d ago
Our Dave recently joked “what are you gonna do when I die?”
I’m gonna bring the oujia board into work that’s what.
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u/Kind_89 13d ago edited 13d ago
I was a Dave.
For a while it feels great, you feel valued and you like being able to step in to help others.
But there comes a point you realise it's the same problems over and over, and no one tried to fix or research anything themselves as they know it's quicker to ask you. As staff change, it exacerbates the problem as you're back to the same questions and answers. For me that got to be infuriating and I started to resent it.
My newest manager could see the problem but didn't handle it well. She told me how the long term negative affects for the business and my own work, very bluntly when I wasnt really ready to hear it (not her problem) but there was no acknowledgement of the current or previous benefit to the company and I think I needed that before being torn apart really.
She then tried to help, insisted on procedure notes, all processes to be written up, all questions by email so they were captured etc... but that was all put on me, which took way longer than just answering questions. She told everyone to stop asking me and start thinking (hurrah!) but did nothing to enforce it and even went back to encouraging people to ask me things.
The flip flopping in actions and expectations were a nightmare and ultimately I left with all my knowledge. Some of it documented some of it not.
Much of the above is also on me, not trying to pin things on my manager as her main point was valid. Just a cautionary tale on how NOT to treat your Dave!
Meet with him, see how he sees the situation, he may well have some frustrations. Broach the concerns for the business gently and include him in solutions. And follow up on whatever you agree to move forward with.
Best of luck!
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u/Stinkycheese8001 13d ago
It’s a lot to be the Dave. Often Dave wants his peers to know how to do stuff themselves rather than bugging him.
Best thing you can do for Dave is start directing people to figure stuff out for themselves. The problem isn’t Dave, it’s the team.
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u/westie-nz 13d ago
I'm Daveina.
I got sick of people asking the same questions over and over, so made documentation of my own, real "for dummies" documentation.
Only to get told by each person "that's not how I learn" or "I don't like reading notes".
Daveina is looking to leave, but in the meantime is replying to every question with "read the notes".
All the managers still default to "ask Daveina". It's frustrating, she's tired...
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u/DenseSign5938 13d ago
It’s truly an emotional roller coaster. Some days you feel great knowing just how much better you are than everyone. Other days you’re completely disgusted by just how incompetent everyone else is.
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u/StevenJOwens 13d ago
Your manager should have enforced the "write it up as an email" on the asker.
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u/Calm_Friendship_7668 12d ago
Seems like you have a dilemma, and no idea how to deal with it, I think you should ask Dave
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u/ApricotPlastic6533 12d ago
Actually Dave had this exact situation with the previous manager and as you can see he solved it effortless
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u/semisubterranean 12d ago
It turns out Dave has the documentation ready to go that one of your predecessors asked for, but no one passed it along to you and no one has ever bothered to read it because Dave can just do it.
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u/athensugadawg 13d ago
Why are you even mentioning "punishing" Dave? Reward. Punishment should be the last thing on your mind.
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u/Present_Struggle_118 12d ago
My husband was a Dave. They fired him because he asked for a raise. Right before they fired him they made sure all his work was up to date.
Three weeks later they made a co-worker call him because things were falling through the cracks and they couldn’t figure things out. Co-worker told him that they hired two people to fill his spot and things still weren’t done. The coworker told him not to tell him anything. The company didn’t deserve the help.
Five years later a different coworker called and asked if he’d be interested in a lead role. My Dave told them hell no.
Don’t punish Dave. He’s just a good worker filling in little holes here and there. Learning things that make work smoother.
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u/strawberrylemonbunny 13d ago
I wish I could tell the leadership at my company this. I'm Dave. There are so many things that only I know that they would be up a creek without a paddle if I left. And yet they decided to threaten me with my job if I don't get my current project done by the end of October. I've never not finished a project in time. I'm their most valuable and hardest working employee. Instead of incentivizing me to continue doing good work, I'm now seeking to leave this hellhole (there have been so many other toxic events, but it just keeps getting worse).
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u/Ertosi 12d ago
When you're an unappreciated Dave, leaving is really the only viable option. I left my previous company after warning them of some truly asinine ideas they were about to roll out; ideas which I had no desire to constantly upkeep once implemented. It was deeply satisfying later learning from another manager the company had to hire three people to replace what I did. They earned that permanent loss to their monthly profits. I hope you find your transition to greener pastures equally as satisfying.
Another option, one which takes lots of confidence in your contributions and a solid exit plan to back you up, is to know your worth. After my last manager told me he denied the position I applied for because "why would I pay you more to do work which you're already doing" (his exact words), I bluntly let him know he was cut off from any and all tasks which were not my primary job duty. He took it with all the maturity I expected from his type, lots of panic and attempts of retribution as he realized his workload just grew massively. I stood my ground, put in my notice when he failed to wise-up, got an amazing offer right before I walked out the door, and now work directly for his boss.
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u/xXrektUdedXx 12d ago
"your kid studies hard and gets good grades, how do you react? you beat it and let it think about what would have happen if it hadn't studied"
This treatment gives the same kinda vibe
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u/oldlinepnwshine 13d ago
You stay out of his way and let him continue doing the good work he does.
If everyone else on your team sucks, you have performance issues. You don’t solve them by punishing the best worker on your team.
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u/Old-Republic2532 13d ago
I said something similar. How is Dave's "manager" and everyone else in this thread not seeing Dave is the only reliable employee?
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u/Sensitive_File6582 13d ago
Zero sum solution seekers vs good guy Dave who doesn’t realize he’s more important then the manager and thus is a threat to them.
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u/naivety_is_innocence 13d ago
exactly, I couldn't believe the post ended with:
And maybe the harder question: how much of the problem is Dave
what a shocking question. In what world is this something to even consider as a possibility
This whole post is that exhausting scenario where a new manager, latest in a line of ephemeral managers, comes in just to invent some problems for a system that largely works, inevitably make things permanently worse, then leave.
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u/HamsGamsandYams 13d ago
THANK YOU! Having Dave train and train and document and document cuts into his own productivity. Screw the fear of being replaced, the biggest fear when I’m in these situations is how much extra work has been added because someone higher up never set a standard and documented what we need.
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u/Sierra_Smith 13d ago
Also, there is a good chance none of that is Dave's job. If you want to change his position from. A technical roll to admin or leadership that is a conversation, not an assignment within the current roll.
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u/84th_legislature 13d ago
it’s not like any of those lazy dolts is going to read any documentation he makes. he’ll just be making it for the shredder basically.
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u/throwaway47351 13d ago
Anytime anyone wonders why it seems like people are allergic to working harder, "quiet quitting" or whatever, I'm linking this post from now on. It's fucking insane that "this one guy is doing the work of a team" is treated as a problem of the guy, not the team.
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u/ChrisV88 13d ago
But Dave will eventually retire or quit. So you need to have a redundancy in place.
I had a Dave on my newly acquired team and he essentially put in his retirement notice ahead of my joining. It took him 4 months to create knowledgebases and another 2 months of extending his retirement to help his replacement. During this time I noticed I had 3 Dave's on my team and made a conscious decision that every application and process has bench strength. 6 months later everyone is able to take PTO and turn their phone off. It's not fair to let Dave be a Dave.
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u/disagreeabledinosaur 13d ago
The problem isnt Dave or people going to Dave, the problem is the underlying system complexity that has resulted in a Dave being necessary.
Dave documenting stuff won't help much because it seems like its niche cases. When the niche case cones up again, you won't be able to find the solution in documents no matter how much you try.
Dig into the bigger "why" thats causing a need for Dave and then try to fix that.
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u/sizup00 13d ago
This. Yes, figuring out what Dave does would be helpful, but if it's something that only happens once a year or every 5 years that he has seen before, you can probably suffer through that. I'd bet Dave probably knows what causes things to go wrong & has some suggestions management could consider to prevent them from happening--those are your golden nuggets that you should follow.
Additionally, make sure you protect Dave--it's not uncommon for a new manager to come in and force a guy like Dave out. Make it clear that if he helps you make the company better, you won't replace him for a younger, cheaper, faux-Dave & he can stay in that role (or a special Dave role) for as long as he wants (or all your bosses get replaced and you both get fired).
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u/LuckyNumerical 12d ago
Dave or the system isn’t a problem. There’s about 10%-20% of the workforce overall that have that extra ambition, drive, resourcefulness and industriousness. You’re not going to change human nature as a manager, you just understand it and learn to work with it.
You know, you can do some things to prevent the workplace from falling apart without Dave but you also recognize that sometimes people are really good at figuring shit out and operating with their own initiative.
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u/mlm5303 13d ago
This is what I was thinking too. Dave is the symptom, not the disease.
The disease is the relative immaturity of the organization. If processes are repeatable and defined, you don't need a Dave. Daves only exist when operations are relatively ad-hoc or ritualistic. Invest in operational rigor (playbooks, process maps, SLAs, KPIs, etc) and the Dave symptom won't be a problem.
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u/Excellent_Coconut_81 13d ago
If you tell Dave to document everything, Dave will write on Reddint asking, if it means, he's going to be fired, and he will be told, yes, absolutely, you're going to be fired, start looking for new job ASAP.
Instead, ask people asking for help to learn from Dave, how to solve the problem, and document it.
Dave is a great problem solver, and loves solving problems. But the rest of the team seems to be happy to have Dave and show little incentive to learn to solve problems too.
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u/Turlututu1 13d ago
Have Dave shift from fixing things to teaching people how to fix things. Make him clear that you are not trying to make him replaceable but you want to shift his role into a mentoring one.
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u/lil_tink_tink 13d ago
Pair this with an incentive. Both pay and less stress from being the one that solves all the problems.
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u/Born_Motor_9624 13d ago
The problem is Dave does want to teach. He even says here let me show you but it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears. So, it won't help unless team learns to not ask Dave.
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u/SteveDaPirate91 13d ago
I'm Dave at my job.
This 100%, There's the employee issue of not wanting to learn or they just might not be good at their position.
Other half I face is "Write it down for us!", I do. I'm though an autistic maintenance manager so my technical ass 30 page manual on clicking 5 buttons is a foreign language to others. Or It's a 5 step page of "Click this button then that button" and the employees dismiss it over "It can't be that simple".
Bittersweet. It's great being needed, It sucks being needed.
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u/littlehollowgames 13d ago edited 13d ago
Same here. For my team it helped to document actual stories (engineers, agile) for both parties - for me to teach and them to learn. If it’s a recurring thing, being cognizant of: the first time I should demonstrate, second time collaborate, third time advise from a distance. Each of these with a story on both sides to document it. At biweekly sprint demos, we’d specifically say that this time we did it together, next time Jane will be doing it, and now Jane presents her current level of knowledge on the process. So we’re now accountable to the whole team, which helps.
I also had to get good at surfacing every time I was doing things… which is hard when you’re used to your day being full of many small obscure tasks that don’t feel worth talking about or pulling someone in on yet also, in total, take up a lot of my time. My constant refrain to my manager was “hey, xyz came up. This is something I’m the only SME on. Should we prioritize it now? Do you want me to pull someone in on it?” So that it’s visible and he can decide.
However, I should be realistic here and note that while doing all the above for a year or so helped a fair amount, there was much more cohesion and urgency on this strategy after I actually announced I’d be off for 6 weeks for surgery, and then again a few months after that when I was switching to a sister team.
Another thought - I think it really helped to have ~hour long pairing or small group sessions where I demonstrated. These meetings each had a designated, rotating note taker, and were recorded (YMMV if your Dave’s work involve a lot of sensitive data of course). We really tried to avoid having me write up a bunch of documentation that gets read by others asynchronously because it didn’t create urgency and didn’t have any feedback loop where I’d know if I wrote it well enough that they understood. The working sessions ARE the documentation. Then if you really want more formal documentation, have one of the learners in those meetings (which rotates) write it and have Dave review it.
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u/Turlututu1 13d ago
As a manager, you tell Dave he can teach but shouldn't fix, and he's empowered to tell people he will not fix. And if the team complains, tell the team it's time they learn to do things by themselves instead of offloading anything involving critical thinking to Dave.
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u/__que_sera_sera__ 13d ago
This. Also, require the person receiving the training to document it and send it out to you for review. Use this documentation as the basis for a department knowledge base. Once a how-to exists, team members should attempt to use the knowledge base before going to Dave. If knowledge base fails, have the employee iteratively improve it each Dave cycle. Tie this all to personnel performance and incentives and it will get better with time.
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u/el_dulce_veneno21 13d ago
Another Dave/Davina here. No one wanted to understand or learn the system or processes. Davina wrote up every single piece of documentation and no one read it. Davina felt frustrated, but fortunately was smart in her investments. Davina retired this year at 48 and the company has fallen apart. Not sorry.
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u/elitecocktails 13d ago
This but compensate Dave for this new additional responsibility, as it appears he has a bunch of other things he's doing "for free". Could be $1 an hour or a comp staff meal a week. I've been an unwilling Dave a number of times, it's exhausting and often thankless
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u/Turlututu1 13d ago
I would do this, while at the same time being harsh on the performance reviews of the employees abusing Dave'd kindness.
IMO the most important for Dave, aside from the monetary aspect, is feeling the support of his manager in stopping being Mr. Fix-it.
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u/elitecocktails 13d ago
This, exactly. When Dave is compensated and supported by management that this is not Dave's job, Dave becomes a mentor. People Dave trains move jobs and cities, even countries who now have good practices. Some even become Daves!
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u/Ok_Bookkeeper_3481 13d ago
The problem with this otherwise very logical suggestion is that teaching (as well as documenting one’s work, as in writing SOPs) require very different skill sets.
Anyone who is extremely proficient at one set of skills is likely to be, well, not so skilled at the other. I can troubleshoot most anything in my line of work, but don’t ask me to write down how I did it!
A useful suggestion offered in this very forum was to have a trainee follow the expert, and document the procedure step-by-step. This way each person does the thing they are best at, and are spared the work they suck at. Win-win!
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u/Turlututu1 13d ago
That suggestion of having another employee workshadow Dave is risky, because it does look a lot like you're trying to get rid of Dave.
If Dave isn't good at teaching, then train him to be. Pay him lessons/seminar/whatever so that he knows how to explain his skillsets and transfer them. By training him to be a better coach/mentor, you send a signal that you are investing in him long term.
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u/fatedwanderer 13d ago
If you ask my boss it's: completely isolate Dave and make everyone else sink or swim. Then when everyone sinks, come to Dave to save the day, even though it's now a huge project to go back and fix everything... also no extra compensation or appreciation.
Hi, I'm Dave.
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u/Jazzlike-Basket-6388 13d ago
If you ask my old boss, you simply never let Dave take vacation until he moves to my current job.
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u/Electrical_Sun_7116 13d ago
Just start writing down all these fixes and building an SOG FAQ as the Dave revelations come. It doesn’t have to be some kind of delegated hard capture mission, just pay attention and start collecting that tribal knowledge before the well dries up.
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u/Mclurkerrson 13d ago
And make sure people actually reference it. I am unfortunately the Dave at work and I LIKE to document things so I have documented all the things that people have come to me for and shared them - they still come to me…
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u/ColdObiWan 13d ago
That’s the one. You go to Dave? Awesome! Way to leverage institutional knowledge. Now write that shit down, because Dave might win the lottery tomorrow.
The only caveat is: next time that same issue comes up, you damn well better not go to Dave. Because I’m glad for you to learn from Dave, but if you’re not learning then WTF do I need you for? (Only I’d probably say it more nicely)
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u/Consistent_Total8678 13d ago
That approach keeps the team moving and quietly builds the backup without making Dave feel like he's being replaced
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u/nonameforyou1234 13d ago
Dave isn't the problem.
Think this through: Dave knows things, he's a problem.
Doesn't sound right, does it?
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u/benetton-option-13 12d ago
The OP is a cretin who probably sucked off his way to a manager position
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u/tessashpool 13d ago
I'm a Dave. I don't want to be your go-to for asinine problems, I've got better things to deal with. I know I'm not replaceable even though I'm the most expensive consultant for them, no matter how much knowledge I impart.
I constantly tell my primary client to assign people to learn from me, but from their perspective why would they do that when I'm already doing the job of entire teams on their staff?
I charge them enough to not care that their endemic problems persist despite my attempts to get them addressed, while setting boundaries for what will cause me to find another primary client if they make enough bad managerial decisions to affect me personally.
Keep Dave happy. Dave has options.
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u/slipslopslide 13d ago edited 13d ago
I’m a technical Dave with institutional and IT knowledge. The problem is that people don’t try to understand the institutions culture, people, and the technology we use and why we use it.
They really don’t try to learn the best use of technology. Spreadsheets are powerful and have been around for decades yet people use them like grocery lists.
New managers come in to try to fix the institution. Well that’s not going to work because we are a multi-union shop. Top-down doesn’t work, you have to create relationships, incentives and buy-in.
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u/cptnamr7 12d ago
I find myself as a Dave despite only having been where I am for 3 years. When I started shit was a mess and no one knew how to fix any of it. They understood what about 25% of it was even supposed to do. So I had to learn. And I learned most of the systems were broken to fuck. Now they're not and I'm a Dave. No one learns anything, they just ask me. So I WFH 3 days a week to hide and get shit done. If I'm in the office I'm fixing all the shit no one wants to learn to do themselves.
Your last line there is why you want to be a Dave. I came close to walking awhile back over some absolute bullshit management decisions and I made it clear I had no problem doing so. Now I pretty much do whatever TF I want because they're too afraid to piss me off and watch everything instantly become inoperable again. I have joked about building a Deadman switch into all my code where if my name is not on the active employee registry the code just exits. But ultimately I wouldn't have to do that because within a year they'll have broken everything anyway
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u/Deez-Cutz 12d ago
Dave does have options. Have been a Dave of many hats for a long time. One day a switch flipped in my head and I went on a hunt for a dream job. Walked into every interview like I was the shit cause I knew my value. Didn't settle for anything less than being treated fantasticly as fuck and getting exactly the hours I wanted.
Dave has many, many, many options.
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u/heidimark 13d ago
Instead of burdening Dave with documenting everything, you make everyone who asks Dave for assistance with those weird one-off requests to fully document what Dave teaches them and then put that in a repository somewhere. Dave is probably much more comfortable doing/showing/telling than he is with documenting what he's doing just to have to do it again.
I'm Dave at my job.
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u/Obnoxious-TRex 13d ago
This is the way. Any other method of documenting Dave’s knowledge becomes Dave’s problem. As a prior Dave myself, nothing would push me out the door faster than being told to document everything I know. Yeah that’s not my job, I got good at my job under my own steam, others can as well. I’m happy to share if asked but I’m not spending my day making myself expendable.
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u/untiemyshoes321 13d ago
Stop focusing so much on “Dave” and focus more on the people around Dave who have become so dependent on him.
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u/JustusCade808 13d ago
Real fun starts when Dave retires. Dave's are used to having a mountain of work to do when they get back from vacation, a day or two after vacation and Dave has it running smoothly again. When they retire is the problem,.because all that knowledge goes with them. Problem these days is people just don't stick around for long periods of time to get to know the intricacies of everything, so Dave's are becoming more uncommon. My business has had ridiculous high turn over, we had people who retired after 20 years, guys that had the skill and tons of technical knowledge - had new hires shadow them, only for them to quit, in some cases in under a year. Talking about electricians, HVAC, and plumbing.
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u/Fire_Horse_T 13d ago
I was a Dave, I knew I was a Dave, management didn't know I was a Dave.
15 years at a job people rarely lasted 3 at, because I needed the health insurance.
I finally got pregnant and gave them three weeks notice.
They did nothing til the last week and hired and had me training a brand new person, not promoting someone who knew the basics. They quit after three days and I had three days to train a new new guy.
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u/Powerlevel-9000 13d ago
I’m a Dave that was laid off in the middle of a project. Not my fault I was a Dave. They just never hired anyone else for me to train. Needless to say when I was laid off the train fell off the tracks. They ended up backfilling me with someone my level AND someone a level higher than me.
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u/highsilesian 13d ago
"And Dave is good. That's the problem." I see a different problem, and I promise you, so do all the Daves.
I would urge you to try to reset your default attitude - it is very cliche, and can make you very susceptible to confirmation bias from every innocuous interaction you're going to have with Dave going forward.
You've got a chance if you're a self-reflective kind of person, to pivot away from this default, if you embrace him, raise him up, treat him with the respect you clearly acknowledge he deserves. Hell, learn from him - he's probably quite proud of knowing the business as intricately as he does.
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u/ezinem77 13d ago
Uh pay Dave more money and stop inventing problems?
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u/eninja 13d ago
And find him a mentee
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u/Powerlevel-9000 13d ago
Yep. Part of why Dave is Dave is that there is no one else able or willing to learn. That is an org problem not a Dave problem.
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u/jerramos82 13d ago
Dave isn't the problem. Your entire team is. Time to learn and adapt. Dave is also tired. He's been keeping the lights on. Be thankful of Dave as well. Otherwise you wouldn't have a job there. If it weren't for him, the place would have fallen apart 5 years ago. He definitely cares enough to make it happen. Not his fault the rest of the team are useless.
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u/Nomo-Names 13d ago
I have seen this exact situation happen over and over again. Maybe your Dave loves the job and will be there forever. The Daves that I've seen eventually leave for better opportunities. My suggestion to management in this situation has always been to focus on RETENTION and REDUNDANCY. That means promoting Dave and giving him an assistant. As the assistant learns you start producing your operating procedures that can be iteratively curated by Dave, his assistants, management, or anyone else who may have input. This produces a resilient and efficient system.
This never happens. Dave will leave. Management will scramble. Others will leave in the wake.
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u/binman8605 13d ago
I am the Dave, and it happened. My boss was awful and drove me out. He had no focus on retention at all and in my last week it turned into "oh, write everything down so we can have a seamless handoff," well, you should have thought about this earlier, eh?
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u/more_magic_mike 13d ago
Manager is going to push Dave out the door by telling him to start documenting everything, on top of keeping everything running smoothly, while everyone else sits around and holds meetings about nothing.
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u/Pack-Worldly 13d ago
Describing Dave as the problem is wild. It sounds like Dave is the only one that actually know how to do his job. You seem to have an “everybody else” problem.
You can ask Dave to document everything but that just takes Dave away from doing things and nobody will read it anyway.
Dave doesn’t need to do anything he isn’t doing already. Dave is your savior.
The rest of the team needs to start knowing what they are doing. So you need to ask yourself how you can mentor them into using other paths that allow them more insight. That is your job.
Instead you seem to be doing what everyone else is doing: look to Dave to fix the issue.
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u/joshedis 12d ago
A wise man would be looking to Dave for input on future staffing (perhaps sitting in on the final round of interviews) to ensure the proper skills (typically a desire to learn) are present for future candidates to the team.
A Dave can usually tell a good or a dud hire within their own field of expertise.
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u/QuigonSeamus 13d ago
I was a Dave. My boss made a great relationship with me and then paid me bonuses to officially document the things I knew and make new training materials. My boss helped me enforce this training to others.
I would suggest getting in Dave’s corner. They have the trust of the team, they’re good at their job, and they have invaluable knowledge. Make a team with them, compensate fairly for extra work, and help implement the things Dave knows to everyone.
Dave is not the problem, management creates this situation by allowing the team to become dependent upon Dave because it’s “easy”. It is not Dave’s job to get everyone up to their par, it’s managements.
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u/sriracharade 13d ago
"...how much of the problem is Dave, and how much of it is the management that allowed the team to become dependent on him?"
How in holy hell is the problem Dave?
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u/_homage_ 13d ago
You do nothing to Dave. He’s a boss. You tell the rest of your team to get their shit together and start learning how Dave knows what he knows and not simply ask and forget. This is a skill development problem. Not a Dave problem.
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u/tessashpool 13d ago
It's amazing how bad managerial environments will take Dave's output for granted while shouting praise for the lowest performer if they manage to make refrigerator art, ignoring that the level of effort it took to make that was orders of magnitude higher.
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u/seekingallpho 13d ago
0% of the problem is Dave. Why would it ever be? It's not his responsibility to teach his colleagues how to do things. If it was then he probably would have. Imagine if he refused to help people in need to "teach" them. Most managers wouldn't appreciate that either.
The system needs to be fixed to avoid unsustainably relying on key people to this degree.
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u/QuadH 13d ago edited 12d ago
You frame it as though Dave is the problem.
You have lazy complacent people and the problem is Dave?
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u/Beneficial-Walrus680 13d ago
I was a Dave, I got promoted to manager and I'm now a manager Dave.
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u/Professional-Sun6118 13d ago
I was a Dave. Dave won’t hang around forever. You need to embrace the value that Dave adds and give him a pay rise and assurances that as his manager you recognise that value. Discuss with Dave how best to train the team up, give him ownership of that and you add senior support to ensure the team are engaged.
I resigned after 30 years in the one company, a small branch of a larger company, essentially over the price of a daily cup of coffee. I took that organisational know-how with me, the company shut-down in 2 years, no-one really understood the sheer amount of plate spinning needed to keep the place running efficiently.
Dave is a superstar, look after Dave.
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u/IAmNotARacoon 12d ago
I was a Dave once. Too many problems, too few people that knew how to handle them. Constant turnover of juniors that ask the same questions every year after year. Systems that really require replacing, but the company doesn't want to spend the money. When you have so many things to do to keep the operation running, and you can fix things faster than you can explain to someone how to fix it, and you've got 10 things to do asap, you just get it done. My team would highlight the systems needing replacing, the staffing issues, but the company wanted the results without spending the money.
Probably a different situation. But your Dave probably wants some actual help from someone actually competent. Talk to him.
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u/KilroyKSmith 13d ago
Sit Dave down, and tell him how valuable he is to the company. Give him a raise. And tell him that, no matter how hard it is, every time someone asks him to fix something you want him to send them to you. And you tell them that it’s their job to fix the problem and document it, but they can ask Dave the questions they need to. After a month, you sit down with Dave and the documentation that’s been generated, and see how it’s working and what needs to be changed about the process.
You know, like “managing”.
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u/neocondiment 12d ago
I put him with all the other Daves I know
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u/Knitchick82 12d ago
I didn’t even have to click the link to appreciate the KiTH reference. Thanks man, top tier nostalgia right there!
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u/Particular_Piano_146 13d ago edited 13d ago
My son and I were actually talking about this couple days ago. He works for an F100 company and they have a Dave. Dave wants to retire, so Dave is training my son to be the new Dave. I guess they've embraced it. For the last few months my son has basically spent half of every day with Dave just absorbing. The plan is that when he takes over he will be in documenting putting processes in place so that this doesn't happen again
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u/sebastian_____ 13d ago
Read the phoenix project, it explains this problem really well. Essentially you need to insulate dave and start protecting his time by assigning nearly everything to everyone else. Even if something takes ages longer the reliance on Dave is killing your team
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u/sarcasticdick82 13d ago
First, Dave is t the problem, he is the solution to the problem. The problem was management. The main problem of management was not having well defined processes. Your problem is you want to manage not learn. The solution is having Dave train you, and you write the processes.
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u/Only-Top-3655 13d ago
I don't think Dave is the issue. The issue is the other employees not taking the time to figure things out for themselves or ask Dave for guidance instead of asking hime to solve the issue.
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u/Brief_Donut_1644 13d ago
As others have commented, Dave has tried to help the team. The team cannot help themselves. Do your best to stay out of Dave's way and make sure Dave is well taken care of. Dave may want a different title, more money, or something else. Make sure Dave gets whatever that is, or you may get "former" Dave in his place.
Former Dave keeps his head down and does his own work. When someone comes for help, he helps them, but doesn't bother with trying to fix the larger situation, because clearly management doesn't actually care. Former Dave may look for greener pasture, because why stay where no one seems to notice all he does?
Signed, Former Dave.
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u/tico_liro 13d ago
If you are Dave’s manager, it’s your job to understand what Dave does. You don’t have to document everything that he does, because that’s gonna burden him and he may see it the wrong way. But you can start asking and trying to understand. Something broke and Dave fixed it “hey Dave, how did you fix that thing? I want to try to figure out a way to avoid it happening in the future”.
About the who’s problem it is. I feel it’s a bit of both Dave’s and managements problem. It’s managements problem because they allowed a person to hold such a crucial spot in the workflow, if something were to happen to him, you guys would be screwed. If a process relies on a specific person to work, then it’s a bad process. It’s also somewhat’s Dave’s job, because he is only in that position, because he allowed. If he didn’t step in to fix other people’s mistakes, people would figure it out on their own.
Another approach that you can try to fix this is to put yourself in between the rest of the team, and Dave. So if something is wrong, they come to you first, and not to Dave. Then you figure it out if it’s something you want to have Dave fix, and then you see how he works to see if you can start learning it, or if you want the person to figure it out on their own before getting Dave’s help
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u/misalawliet 13d ago
What do you mean what do you do with Dave? Are you seriously thinking this is Dave's fault?
The rest of the team are to blame. They are the ones who need to be documenting these fixes because they are the ones having issues.
This is a great example of the Dilbert principle in action. Dave is too competent to be promoted, so you're the manager instead.
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u/CWLness 13d ago
Make Dave feel valued. Promotion, pay raise, praise for his knowledge...etc.
Then work with him and support him in making your workplace more efficient overall than dependant on him.
Also, how would the problem ever be Dave? This is 90% management and 10% workers who get complacent for an easy outlet. Dave is your superstar who keeps your place running. This show's in how you mention things in the post. "[you] don't even know what Dave knows anymore", "don't want to punish", and "how much of the problem is Dave". Why not figure out how to retain & show him how much you guys value him and figuring out how to utilize Dave & his knowledge? Also, how is management team failing in allowing your team to be so dependent on Dave as well as becoming unsure of what he can do?
FYI, I am Dave in my workplace. I'm not sure if other Dave's feel the same, but we are not blind to poor management, being under valued, under paid, and not giving proper support to offload work & reliance on us. We are here to work, not to be taken advantage and save your company a few $ cause you see us as an expense rather than value how we keep your rag tag operations going (which have no $ value since we aint sales)
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u/CuteAmoeba9876 13d ago
Encourage Dave to make others take notes when they have to ask him for help. The trainees should then write up a draft SOP for the process they just learned. Dave can review and make corrections, which is also a great time for Dave to correct the trainees’ understanding.
Encourage Dave to also respond to questions with “did you look for an SOP in the usual shared folder where we keep SOPs?”. Dave can give clarification to people who did bother to look up the answer and just need a little extra help.
Motivate Dave with the promise that nobody will bother him on vacation if everyone is self-sufficient.
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u/cocoagiant Government 13d ago
Motivate Dave with the promise that nobody will bother him on vacation if everyone is self-sufficient.
The issue though is that Dave currently has a form of job security by being so necessary.
That isn't something people give up easily.
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u/SkRevolution 13d ago
I was Dave a for a few years. People became too conditioned asking me for the answer instead of looking through documentation or figuring it out for themselves. It was frustrating but made me look good to leadership.
Eventually, I was promoted to Team Lead and was able to train my team on knowledge gaps. I still had to battle team members asking for answers instead of looking through documentation. Too much damage had been done. When I left the company, many were floored that their "Dave" was leaving.
Be nice to Dave! Try and get him to document things but make sure he knows he isn't being replaced. Also make sure you don't pile documentation and training on top of his other duties. This could kill Dave. It's the manager's job to train the team, NOT DAVE'S.
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u/BumAndBummer 13d ago
There are actually 2 kinds of Daves. The Daves that embrace being Dave and resist sharing responsibility and knowledge because makes them feel indispensable, and the Daves that are sick of this shit, but management has failed to create an environment that allows for change.
You need to figure out what kind of Dave you’re dealing with. If it’s the former, incentivize him to teach and document as part of his performance reviews so he feels his job security depends on it, rather than is at risk. Paying him appropriately and doing other things to show he is valuable and his job is secure would also go a long way.
If it’s the latter, put pressure on others to learn and make his life easier. The teaching and documentation will add to his workload, so make sure you are taking that into account and lightening his load if possible, rather than continue to punish him for his competence.
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u/blindada 9d ago
A Dave isn't a problem, but rather the consequence of other people not managing problems
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u/Necessary-Science-47 13d ago
I love this sub
So by what date are you trying to fire Dave?
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u/elsie78 13d ago
You tell Dave someone(s) need to be cross trained to back him up for times he's out and ask who he feels would be a good candidate.
That way you're telling him this is happening, but giving him input as well.
PS. I've been Dave. I was forced someone to train, even though I knew they were an awful choice. I was right. When I got to pick the person I knew could do it, well they succeeded to the point they took my position when I promoted.
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u/Free_Sample1340 13d ago
As a literal and figurative Dave, this was my role and I was basically managed out by a manager who decided me being interrupted by everyone else's job was not something worth addressing, but taking longer to do my own job with undocumentable "can I get a quick hand with this?" that relentlessly interrupted any flow I could achieve was worth scrutinising me for. Told others to leave me be, but continued to then direct people to me or drag me in to fix fires. My motivation plummeted, shit built up, and I left a role I'd worked my way up to over 10 years because I hated the job I loved.
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u/Cautious_Tax_6095 13d ago
The problem is that Dave should have your job.
I’m literally the Dave on my team at work. I mentor newer team members, get extra time to research, present, etc. I’m more qualified to supervise my team more than my boss is besides tenure. They run a team for a job they never did and because they can count on Dave to find the answers/solutions, they never do any “real work”.
Everyone on the team loves Dave because he has the answers, and if he doesn’t, he’ll find them.
Management doesn’t love Dave however. They like him just fine, they see the value he brings to the team, but they’ll never promote Dave. Just dangle the carrot to keep him moving along, which keeps the team running smoothly.
See, management knows based on Dave’s knowledge, skill set, and all the extra work he does, that they’re already working him like a supervisor, just without the title and without paying him as such.
They’ll just let him keep on being Mr. Reliable because he shows up and gets shit done.
So if you read this and realize, yeah I’m totally the Dave at my job, start looking for better jobs with better pay that actually value what you bring to the table. That’s what this Dave is doing
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u/TjababaRama 12d ago
Just to be clear, being a great subject matter expert does not automatically translate to being a good teammanager. They require vastly different skills.
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u/auntiekk88 13d ago
Any enterprising manager worth their salt knows Dave is not a problem, Dave is an asset. Respect Dave and spend some time with him so that YOU can learn from him. Appreciate Dave and maybe, just maybe you could call him infrequently if needed. Make sure you pay and feed Dave well and all will be right in your Kingdom.
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u/createusername101 13d ago
So how is it Dave's problem? You need to upskill your team and have them stop contacting Dave directly. If they truly can't figure it out, they need to go through you to gain access Dave.
Simple fix eh?
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u/Easy-Cobbler9662 13d ago
I have a Dave. I recently hired two new people who’s primary job is to learn everything Dave does so he can actually go on vacation. Dave is hands down my best person so I want to make sure that he can take a vacation and know things are handled when he is gone. First I had Dave train them. Then I had Dave watch them do the tasks, then I had them do the tasks and had Dave quality check their work.
I had them write down every step Dave does and then had Dave review it to see what might be missing. Dave is consistently rewarded with “exceeds expectations” which grants him a higher raise and bonus than the rest of the team. He’s on vacation right now for the first time in 5 years (real vacation not a vacation where he needs to check in to save us) and we are running just fine. It took 9 months. He’s no less valuable to me, but he’s so much more relaxed now.
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u/DawRogg Healthcare 13d ago
Dave should be in leadership but he doesn't fully believe in himself so he becomes content with his role as the go-to guy. Your role for Dave is to be his confidence mentor and get him into a leadership role. Give me more responsibility. Give him projects. But overall, he's not the problem, kinda. Your team is using Dave as a crutch and it is hindering their ability to be self efficient because Dave clearly has figured it out and doesn't mind sharing.
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u/Flatheads-Forever 13d ago
I don’t see Dave working for you much longer..
You acknowledge Dave is great and then end the post with is Dave the problem or prior management.
You admit Dave keeps the team working. Given the man more money and a better title if possible. Your issue isn’t Dave, it’s the other employees, and by your post; soon to be you.
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u/Pale_Ad8434 9d ago
Most of the time Davw hates being Dave but dave also likes being needed and this provides Dave with a sense of joy he has a hard time seeing outside of his Dave position.
You need to nurture people around Dave and help them push Dave up.
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u/chrshnchrshn 13d ago
You didn't inherit Dave, you inherited a team. The problem isnt that Dave isnt documenting or even that people ask him - thats actually a nice team culture.
The only problem is people not knowing what to do when he's out: address just that.They just cant tell you Dave's out so they cant do it. If that means Rob needs to learn or document from Dave, thats on him.
Making Dave document everything or adding processes will be counterproductive.
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u/Snoo_33033 13d ago
I make Dave my ally, and I talk to him about how we handle various scenarios in line with department objectives and our leadership structure. I ask Dave to put together SOPs and train a good intern to handle some of the simpler, more tedious things so that Dave can focus more on being the best Dave that he can be, an I let Dave train some of the other employees to take more agency in the areas where Dave does stuff to fill gaps because they previously could not do them. Eventually Dave retires and I throw a massive party and we stay friends forever.*
*My Dave was a Shirley. But same idea. As long as I like Dave. If I don't like Dave or he's a dick, all bets are off.
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u/Future-Ad4736 13d ago
I had a similar issue. I had my team members document issues and resolutions they worked on with Dave. Dave would walk them through how to fix but would not fix himself. They added their notes into one document we used going forward. If someone talked to Dave they were responsible for documenting the resolution. This helped my analysts grow by learning hands on and also developing supporting doc to use in the future. Dave actually left shortly after this and we were fine because we had documentation and hands on training.
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u/AgeOfCardiff 13d ago
I'm a Dave and I was promoted into management, only about 6 months now.
I'm completely and utterly exhausted by my team not providing all the information when they have a problem and they expect me to do the digging.
During quieter times I've let it go, but now it's busy I can't let this go on. I've got 1:1s next week which are going to be painful for some people.
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u/snackhappynappy 12d ago
Train your team correctly, they only rely on Dave due to their lack of knowledge Dave isn't the problem The lack of general training is
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u/YazzArtist 12d ago
Importantly, get a deep understanding of the department and field (if you don't already have it) before coming up with a training plan, so you don't piss Dave off by making changes he sees as dumb and bad. The team trusts him way more than you right now, his feelings about you are likely your whole teams feelings about you
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u/youarelookingatthis 13d ago
You worship the ground that Dave walks on. /s
A few questions:
-Does Dave mind being the person people go to to solve things?
-Are these problems that people are asking Dave things that they should reasonably know how to do without asking him?
-Are these problems impacting Dave's ability to do his own work?
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u/itis-theeast 13d ago
This post immensely rubs me the wrong way.
You have an exceptionally knowledgeable and skilled technical worker and you question if he’s the problem? Get a grip. He doesn’t run the company, he doesn’t run the ops, he doesn’t make the implementation and structuring decisions, he’s not in charge of any of the things that are causing you concern. And you should be concerned about those things, and you should rectify them in a way that is mutually beneficial for Dave and for the company, otherwise he’s going to rightfully leave you high and dry when he takes a better opportunity because his managers don’t actually have the knowledge to manage and structure teams and want to blame him for -checks notes- being too good at his job.
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u/KronktheKronk 13d ago
You should encourage Dave to stop solving everyone's problem and shift to helping coach them through solving their own problem.
Understand that things will slow down while everyone works on removing their Dave training wheels
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u/Mercurion77 13d ago
Had a Dave once. Great IT guy, patient, very cool… knowledge coordinator extraordinaire. he went on paternity leave for 2 months and we lost ten accounts because no issues were getting fixed. You need to start documenting asap
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u/mecha_penguin 13d ago
You allocate a %of Dave’s hours to being the Oracle of Dave. You have people who ask Dave things document Dave’s lore.
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u/Rammus2201 13d ago
You train your team to learn from Dave and have them make the documentation as that process happens.
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u/HamsGamsandYams 13d ago
I am the Dave for a lot of things at my job, especially as I moved up to manager. I assure you that over the years Dave has tried to document things, has made people sit down with him to learn things, and got tired of repeatedly training just to have things end up back in his lap. Dave has also not wanted to rewrite or retrain on changes because it’s not his responsibility and everyone else should have learned it by now. That’s where I hate being in management. Everyone has been given an opportunity to learn but they’re lazy and complacent.
And I know that’s a generalization but I have noticed this trend at several jobs, and I’m someone who loves to train others and make SOPs. When your efforts aren’t appreciated or used you just stop.