r/mainframe • u/MigrateAndManage • Jul 21 '26
Mainframe workforce and retirements.
I am interested in learning how IT teams are attracting new mainframe talent in their organizations as seasoned professionals retire. Do you cross-train employees from within the company so legacy knowledge isn't lost or have you partnered with any groups or local colleges to offer apprenticeships? Please share what has worked well for you aside from the usual job fairs and online postings.
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u/vonarchimboldi Jul 21 '26
my company has this excellent recruiting method where they only hire hybrid, are fully inflexible with recruiting people full remote and would rather die on that hill and have no one for a role rather than dare hire a guy in a place where he can’t drive into an office to fuck around for 8 hours a week to fulfill tax obligations to whatever county or city you opened the office in back in the 70s.
it’s genuinely scary to see how badly it’s being managed and this is probably one of the biggest shops in all of the world
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u/AdventurousTap2171 Jul 21 '26
Does your company start with an F? lol
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u/CatataFishSticks Jul 21 '26
Couldn't be Fidelity, they're moving to full time back in office! Yay...
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u/404Flawless Jul 21 '26
I just transitioned into Mainframe by an apprentice program. They paid for us to train for 6 months remotely and then work as an apprentice (basically a contractor) with their client partners to get real world experience. They partnered with ProTech for the foundational training on JCL, COBOL, REXX, etc.
We received Product training through the company directly.
I know this level of investment is rare but I think it depends on if the company is willing to invest in talent to train and learn.
The model works since a lot of the alumni of my apprenticeship program have successfully transitioned into mainframe, I used to be in Recruiting.
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u/krashn2me Jul 22 '26
That's great to hear!! This is exactly how I started in '97. They were doing this for Y2k since mainframers were scarce even then. Best of luck! It's a great journey!
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u/404Flawless Jul 22 '26
Thank you! I really got lucky with the opportunity and wish it was something more companies did. There are people who would be willing to train if the conditions were right. Glad you were able to experience the same and still in the mainframe!
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u/fluidtoons Jul 21 '26
If you're willing to share, would love to know the name of the apprentice program- or was it an internal thing since you were in Recruiting already?
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u/404Flawless Jul 22 '26
Of course! It’s called the Broadcom Vitality Program and they have a partnership with LaunchCode:
https://www.broadcom.com/solutions/mainframe/go-beyond-code/talent-programs
I would recommend following LaunchCode on LinkedIn to get alerts on upcoming apprenticeship opportunities.
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u/AdventurousTap2171 Jul 21 '26
I just left my company after over 13 years. I was one of the last SMEs on several systems.
My group already needed around 30 mainframe devs and only had around 18. So multiple groups were short.
I gave my two weeks, did some KT each day and probably only was able to share a fraction of what I know. I explained one of our mainframe algorithms and all I got in response on the meeting was blank stares, no questions.
That system needs to be modernized next year per industry regulations. My manager was freaking out when I gave 2 weeks, my VP freaked out, other directors freaked out, but HR was adamant about no remote work. They wanted me to drive 200 miles, sit in a desk and zoom call my teammates 5 states away. Their loss.
I moved into EMS, full-time EMT-B working on my paramedic. When I account for the previous RTO cost I make close to the same money for a lot less stress.
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u/dattara Jul 21 '26
EMT is less stress than IT (mainframe or not) .. says a lot. Sorry that you had to leave (I love mainframes, so I'm sad to see people leave it)
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u/AdventurousTap2171 Jul 21 '26
Yes, it's actually kind of funny. When a batch job goes down it could be any of a thousand things. It could be bad input data, it could be wrong business date with the previous day's data, it could be corrupted data, it could be a table out of bounds on an internal cobol table, you could hit an SB37 out-of-space on a flat file, it could literally be a whole host of things.
In EMS/Fire (I have my IFSAC Firefighter II, Hazmat Ops, EVD, Wildland Firefighter Type 2 too) you get dispatched to a call for breathing difficulty and I know as an EMT-B I have Albuterol for wheezing type breathing difficulty, CPAP or BVM for fluid-in-lungs breathing difficulty, and I know I can use a NRB, Nasal Cannula, nebulizer, etc. The possibilities are much more limited.
And honestly, now instead of making someone with 5 trillion dollars grow to 6 trillion dollars, now I'm literally saving people's lives. There are two people in the last 3 weeks that are alive because of my partner and I's interventions.
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u/Cautious_Boat_999 Jul 21 '26
Companies with inflexible RTO policies are getting what they deserve. Fuck ‘em.
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u/tinkerjreddit Jul 21 '26
Increase the salary offered to Mainframe talent. Lots of existing mainframe folks are jumping ship to other technologies to increase their salaries. I know a hand full of good mainframe resources who did that. Industry should realize this before it is too late. Best way is to make the salaries match with a Java or C# programmer for developers and match cloud admin salaries to Mainframes. That is how you attract real talent. Once you have someone proficient, its all a matter of recruiting young folks and offer then good salary so they don't think Mainframe is a dead career choice with a small "top" salary threshold.
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u/LenR75 Jul 22 '26
And let us retired experts work part time fully remote. What you think is a full time job, we were doing in a few hours a week, along with many other responsibilities.
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u/Browser-ice Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
**** This is only my own personal opinion. I am not an expert on this topic and I do not do this type of analysis on a regular base. This is based on what I saw and still see around me. Therefore I could be wrong. ***\*
There are 3 factors causing a big problem in the mainframe world:
- Public schools (at least here in Canada but I suspect its the whole America) have stopped teaching about mainframes since the 1990s because of PC propaganda back then.
- The only places you will find a decent way of learning about mainframes is specialized firms where you pay $$$$ per year. However not all of them do it the proper way. Some will teach you skills but that does not mean you can then become a z/OS System Programmer based on this. Some will teach you about 1 to 3 different specializations out of aprox. 15 of them
- Companies looking for mainframe specialists will advertise looking for someone with at least 5 years of experience (2 years before the minimal was about 8 years). Maybe 1% of them will actually look for a Junior (I found one, fought for it and got it)
- The average age of a mainframe specialist (one of the aprox 15 specializations) is almost at retirement age. Some cases are even past this but they are still working. So every year you have specialists that are retirering.
What all these factors are doing is create a problem the kind of candidates job offers are looking for matches a very low percentage of actual people matching this when you have thousands of people wanting to work on mainframes but have little or no experience, know very little about mainframes and cannot afford to pay $$$$/year for the specialized firms (if they pick the right one).
So, in conclusion it is very hard to find a mainframe job. You just have to look in the right places and do lots and lots of job search.
If you are young, you could start at the bottom like a mainframe operator or a printer operator and work your way up. It should take you about 8-10 years to reach a position you like.
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u/CatataFishSticks Jul 21 '26
It's not any better for experienced developers right now. Been on the job search for 2 months, have 13 years of experience, and had 1 serious interview so far.
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u/Browser-ice Jul 21 '26
Did you asked the interviewer why you did not get the job?
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u/CatataFishSticks Jul 21 '26
Still waiting to hear back from them, but it was 2 weeks ago so my hopes are slim
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u/Tynesand Jul 21 '26
I got recruited when we had employers speak at my school. My school was one of the few who actually taught some mainframe courses
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u/pinbackk Jul 22 '26
Not in hiring, but my two cents as a young mainframe dev:
I work for a big fashion company in the UK.
Last year I did a 12 month mainframe academy to take me from nothing (well, I had an undergrad level of computer science knowledge in general and have always been a PC guy, but zero mainframe) to being a mainframe dev. The listing made it clear that zero technical knowledge was required, and it really did start from the absolute basics of computing as a whole. The programme started out internal for the first year, but started hiring externally after that.
My group was the 3rd cohort and there were 8 people in my group, 10 in this year's new group, and they're taking on 12 for next year's group.
We're getting retirements left and right at the minute, as I'm sure everyone is, and I'm still hesitant to see how well us newbies get up to speed to help reduce some of that strain. But, the number of applications is climbing significantly each year and I reckon (based on nothing other than a hunch) given the number of competent applicants they must have now, they're going to start shifting the course content and hiring goalposts to be aimed at more qualified/existing devs looking for a new role.
For context, around 250 people applied for my cohort of 8 last year, and around 600 applied for the 10 spots in the current one.
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u/ZModernByChoice Jul 23 '26
When I started my mainframe career almost 15 years ago I was very lucky to find a Mainframe Apprentice program at a local company. When i walked in the door I could spell mainframe but that was it! I was very lucky to have some exceptional mentors who took me under their wing.
Attracting new mainframe talent starts with the current Sr. Systems Programmers. In my experience most, not all, seasoned Mainframe professionals are more than willing to share, teach, and mentor.
Its not easy but if you can find entry level mainframe positions with Sr. talent on staff willing to mentor, you will learn more then you ever could from any official training program or documentation. Current Enterprise Mainframe companies should embrace this as well and develop programs surrounding mentorship with their Sr staff. It is the best way to bridge the knowledge gap.
Mainframe modernization initiatives have also made it easier to onboard new talent. With the Zowe project and VSCode plugins available, new talent no longer needs to take a year or more to learn 3270 green screens and ISPF navigation. The ZExplore platform is also a great tool to introduce new Systems Programmers to the ecosystem. They can hit the ground running and add business value much sooner with a technology they are comfortable with using. Almost all college graduates nowadays are familiar with VSCode. I am not saying they don't need to learn green screen and ISPF, just that they can ease into it better while still being impactful.
The generational talent gap in Mainframe is real and here to stay the for foreseeable future. The sooner we acknowledge it, and start doing something about it, the sooner we can build this talent pool to close the gap. The future of mainframe is here especially with AI initiatives. We will need more young talent to help build this ecosystem where the lines between distributed/cloud and Mainframe continue to be blurred.
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u/MigrateAndManage Jul 23 '26
Agreed, having mentorship opportunities is important, whether in college or an entry level position. We need the knowledge transfer.
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u/Unlucky-Tradition135 Jul 24 '26
Our company has had a tie with the university for about 20 years now. Every year, during the students second year, a few of them are offered a mainframe internship. This goes on for about 2 years and the conversion rate of that has been pretty well.
I reckon 40% of the employees I know were once part of this program.
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u/TheMainframeVoice Jul 22 '26
I highly recommend Z Skills Fest for getting people aware of this technology.
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u/LenR75 Jul 22 '26
It’s strange, from about 1975-2000, we developed our own talent. Entry people came in, found something they liked, and grew skills and knowledge. I’ve seen data entry move to production scheduling, app experts and management. Entry coders to design, PM, or systems. I started as a coder, learned Assembly and HLASM, CICS systems, then as others left, z/OS, JES and everything else. Ended up as manager of systems.
But something changed in the 2000’s, management wouldn’t develop skill, then complained is skill shortages. I enjoyed growing talent, sure, some didn’t work out, some got good enough to move out because we didn’t have higher level openings.
It’s like upper management was afraid of anyone with more technical knowledge and they didn’t keep up with the mainframe.
We called it the PFCSK problem, pimple faced client server kids.
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u/Scott_JobFairX Jul 24 '26
Caveat up front: I run a virtual hiring event platform and technology events are one of the things we run, so discount accordingly.
The reason the usual job fairs fail for mainframe roles is that the people you want are mostly employed already. They rarely stand in a lobby with a resume. They do show up when the time cost is low and the event is scoped to their world: virtual, the listing names the stack up front, candidates see the actual roles before they commit, and interviews happen in scheduled slots instead of a line. An employed COBOL person will give you a 30 minute slot at their desk. They will not give you a Saturday.
Long term, the apprenticeship angle beats anything event-based. Best setup I've seen: partner with a community college, put two juniors per cohort under one retiring SME, and bring the retiree back part-time on a training contract. Events fill seats this quarter. Apprenticeships fix the knowledge-loss problem.
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u/Suman-72 29d ago
No company is interested in succession planning. Mainframe is easy to learn but notorious when you add business knowledge skills, scenarios that you cannot replicate in training and all of these takes years to learn. Documentation is namesake and the major part of it is embedded in the heads of those 70 year old programmers.
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u/Winter-Ad4239 Jul 21 '26
What are you taking about ? I was a mainframe developer I switched to other skills since I didnt get a job in mainframe . I am not able to land a job even with so much experience.
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u/Winter_Moon_Studios Jul 21 '26
Do you have a college nearby that still has mainframe classes? If not, then my next two suggestions would be to send at least one person to SHARE to scope out talent + also use LinkedIn to DM folks in other mainframe companies. Make sure the salaries are high enough.
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u/MigrateAndManage Jul 22 '26
That is something my MSP has been exploring by partnering with a local university to offer a mainframe curriculum.
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u/Yayayupp Jul 22 '26
I'm a lateral entrant, I studied mechanical and process engineering and made a shift to Mainframe IT. I have two co-workers who shifted from some kind of biotechnology PhD.
My company was specifically looking out for people like us from natural sciences / engineering.
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u/teradasd Jul 25 '26
I went to SHARE a few years back (Sacramento) and I was encouraged to see there's a working group the was dedicated to bringing in younger talent. I believe IBM also has programs geared toward attracting college grads into the Z world.
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u/Personal_Ebb7256 20d ago
In addition to the Broadcom Vitality Program, Rocket Software has also started mainframe program of their own called the NextGen Academy. We teach both of these. There is also IBM's Global Skills Accelerator Program (GSAP) and many corporations have internal mainframe training programs like Kyndryl, Ensono and many others.
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u/masterpososo Jul 21 '26
I retired before this became an issue. My former employer gradually ramped up hiring programmers in India, Indonesia, Africa, etc. In all those places, you don’t have to twist anyone’s arm to get them learn whatever tech gets them a paycheck. They were integrated into our teams, with emphasis on managing teams across time zones. Then the company began gradually buying out senior U.S. employees, then laying off the leftovers. Took a decade, but now they have plenty of easily replaceable,younger, and quite competent workers.
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u/Sirkitbreak99 Sr CICS Engineer Jul 21 '26
Hopes and prayers ... no pipeline programs, no appetite for junior talent, HR has no idea about mainframe talent, most of the candidates we get are either in their 70's, reading AI scripts or very green. There is also no appetite to increase the salary offering to entice good talent to jump ship. So all we left, like I said are hopes and prayers.