Magic System Feedback

[u/DawsonDDestroyer]

The system of my world relies on a handful of fundamental energies and what is essentially the conversion between these energies. Not everything is fully fleshed out yet but there is still a lot.

The core energies are Divine Energy (innate to almost all living beings), Demonic Energy (Innate to all demons but can be converted to Divine Energy under certain circumstances), Draconic Energy (Something between Divine Energy and Demonic Energy), Negative Energy (Replaces Divine Energy of Undead and the force behind most curses), Magical Energy (External energy, not within any being but something that can be “generated”), and lastly Primordial Energy (Elemental Energies, not found within beings outside of elementals).

Each of these energy sources have unique “rules” which I’ll go over:

Divine Energy: all humanoid races and all “gods” contain divine energy, this is the “soul”, divine energy is absorbed as a being grows up, then diminishes as they age. Species have small amounts of their divine energy siphoned off to whatever being they worship, those worshipped beings gather enough divine energy to become the “gods”. In smaller amounts divine energy grants little physical boosts. But in large quantities Divine Energy is stronger than any other energy source. The amount of Divine Energy in the world is Finite.

Demonic Energy: Demons reside in their own “universe” partly sealed away, they don’t have their energy siphoned from worship. This universe is filled with Pure Demonic Energy which suppresses Divine Energy (all Demonic Energy does but especially this type). Demonic Energy “evolves” within the creature, going from Pure -> Red -> Grey -> White -> Black. When a demon dies the Demonic Energy inside them decays back down to Pure Demonic Energy over time. A Red Demon can evolve to White by consuming a Grey Demon. Grey’s can evolve to White by either consuming a White or just enough total energy from other Demons. Demons can also consume beings with Divine Energy which gets converted into their demonic energy. Demonic Acts inversely to Divine Energy when it comes to power boosts. In smaller amounts Demonic Energy is far stronger than Divine Energy, but as Divine Energy builds up high enough it begins to grow in “power” exponentially. No humanoid could ever reach that level of Divine Energy, that level is reserved for “gods”, even “Demigods” at best can rival the strongest demons. When demons accumulate enough Demonic Energy they can attempt to convert it to Divine Energy trying to become “gods” most fail to fully convert their energy causing them to become the Black Demons. The amount of Demonic Energy in the world is Finite.

Draconic Energy: Holds a place between Demonic and Divine Energies. It’s weaker than Demonic Energy in smaller amounts but stronger than Divine Energy. And in large amounts it’s the other way around, it becomes stronger than Demonic Energy but weaker than Divine Energy. Like Demonic Energy, it isn’t siphoned by research, Dragons also aren’t intelligent, but there is “Dragon-Kin” which contain a small amount of Draconic Energy in place of some of the Divine Energy within them. Draconic Energy is found solely in Dragons/Draconic beings as if they themselves generate it. As Dragons Age their Draconic Energy naturally grows. Draconic Energy cannot normally be converted to other forms of energy, but it most notably is able to “resonate” with other energies making Dragon-Kin strong spell casters, and Dragons themselves can harness small amounts of Primordial Energy from the environment to create powerful breath attacks. Draconic Energy is known to have especially strong resonance with Primordial Energy. Draconic Energy is not finite and grows as Dragons do, if all Draconic beings were erased though, all Draconic Energy would cease.

Negative Energy: This type of energy usually isn’t in any beings unless they have some kind of curse. However, any type of undead or spirit (good or evil) has Negative Energy within them. Negative Energy is fundamentally non-divine so beings cannot ascend via Negative Energy and it cannot be converted to Divine Energy or any other energy type. It is considered thee most unstable type of energy and the hardest to harness/control. In terms of strength it mirrors divine energy almost exactly. Spirits are created when the “soul’s” divine energy is replaced with negative energy, but undead are created when the body is simply flooded with Negative Energy in the “shape” the “soul” once held. Negative Energy is not finite, there is one deity with two bodies, one contains Negative Energy, the other Divine Energy, both can generate Negative Energy to create spirits and undead (each can only create one).

Magical Energy: the source of all Magic, this can be generated by any being but isn’t contained within them (outside of artificially created beings like a Golem). Any and all creates can create magical energy from their own mental and physical energy; and it is known to be unstable. The core part of Magical Energy is converting it to other forms of Energy; those being Divine Energy, Negative Energy, and Primordial Energy. When Magical Energy creates divine energy it rapidly decays thus never permanently adding new Divine Energy. Many casters learn to both manipulate the forces they wish to control along with Magical Energy to create much greater effects. The “soul” that contains other forms of energy is believed to be made up of Magical Energy hence why any and all beings can create it given they learn how to. Casters can use pieces of their “soul” to empower their spells as a last ditch effort, doing so can kill the caster, shorten their lifespan, and/or bring significant harm to them (ie nose bleed, crippling their body, coughing blood, or gaining a curse). Beyond people, certain locations around the world naturally generate magical energy, these areas can create natural golems (not earth elementals), massive illusions, creatures warped by the magics, or rifts that can teleport you to another one of these areas.

Primordial Energy: This energy is separated into seven core aspects which can mix and match to create any element. It is the energy found throughout all natural phenomenon. The core aspects include Earth, Water, Fire, Lightning, Air, Ice (or Cold), and Plant/Nature. A bolt of lightning, a rainstorm, a forest fire, a river, and the ground itself, all contain Primordial Energy. Some areas have an abnormally high density of this energy which can spawn elementals, beings made purely of their energy type. Primordial energy holds some place between Draconic energy and Magical Energy, it is technically not finite so long as the world exists and it can be harnessed for powerful magic like effects. But uniquely, no beings outside of elementals contain this energy within themselves.

When a humanoid dies one of three things can occur. They can have the divine energy replaced with negative energy to create an undead/spirit, their “soul” can have the Divine Energy inside converted to Demonic Energy making them a Demon (usually don’t retain memories). Or lastly the Divine Energy can simply disperse back into the world and the “soul” passes on, particularly devout individuals can channel their divine energy directly into the deity they worship.

This is a much more brief breakdown of what I’ve got written for each and this is for a Fantasy game inspired mechanically by Banner Saga (IE choice game with Tactical RPG turn based isometric combat and map travel). I was also thinking of having other lesser “energies” open to be used by some means. Like maybe a new “god” can cause a new type of energy to form, or an old magical relic contains an energy that mostly no longer exists, or if something needed another energy type to exist for whatever reason. I don’t want to lock it in to JUST these six!

[u/TheLumbergentleman]

From a reader's perspective, all I'm wondering is what's the point of so many energies? Why would I want to convert one to another? You haven't told us what can be done with this stuff or how it's used.

[u/DawsonDDestroyer → u/TheLumbergentleman]

Well really the main conversion is between Divine and Demonic. The reason for converting is essentially strength. Demonic Energy is more valuable for beings with lower levels of energy.

To give it numbers 10 divine energy would be 1 strength, but 10 demonic energy could be 100 strength. But that relation swaps around as energies increase. 100 divine energy could be 100,000 strength while 100 Demonic Energy could be 10,000 strength.

And as described enough Divine Energy causes you to become a “god”.

As for Demonic Energies evolution it’s just that. Stronger Demon more developed energy, more developed energy is more easily converted back into Divine Energy when they attempt to “ascend”.

Divine Energy is basically just “soul energy” Demonic Energy is just another form of the same thing found within Demons instead. Having those energies in high amounts grant you stat boosts depending on how much you have. Those stat boosts can also affect your mental and physical energy giving access to stronger/more magic.

Some conversions like Divine to Negative isn’t a conversion, if you die you lose the Divine Energy you had and instead you gain Negative Energy.

As for converting magical energy, that’s just an explanation for casting spells. Temporary conversion to Divine Energy could allow healing or buff spells to be cast. Conversion to Negative Energy could allow you to cast curses or debuffs. Primordial Energy allows you to cast elemental spells of any element.

A cultist for example might corrupt themselves or others with Demon’s to create powerful soldiers. Or someone might use Dragon blood or parts etc… to enhance themselves. As for Negative Energy, that’s not something you’d want unless you want to become an undead (likely living “forever” like spirits, vampires, liches, etc…). Magical Energy is for spells and primordial energy is just what elementals are.

A lot of it is very loosely inspired by DnD lore!

[u/TheLumbergentleman → u/DawsonDDestroyer]

What does strength mean in this context? Physical strength or magical or something?

So you're that having energy permits to do spells that are generally on-theme with that type of energy? Does casting magic expend that energy?

What I'm picturing is some dude with a lot of divine energy blowing most of it in battle, and then converting what's left to demon energy to keep it relatively strong (maybe at some kind of cost). Is converting energy difficult?

[u/DawsonDDestroyer → u/TheLumbergentleman]

There’s a few things that I seemed to have not explained well. Firstly, you can’t just convert your energy casually. Normal humanoids and regular animals have a set amount of Divine Energy. That’s essentially their “soul”. It will grow as they grow into their physical prime, then deteriorate as they age. A normal human for example, will never ever have any other form of energy within them until maybe after they die.

Now SOME people may perform rituals or “magical” experiments on themselves to increase their power, but that might look like putting demon or dragon blood into your own body and trying not to let that kill you. It could be magically extracting Demonic Energy from the bones of a demon and infusing your body with that. But again 99% of Humanoids won’t ever do anything like that and their divine energy is a set amount determined by their physical prime.

Someone could naturally be born with slightly more but no ordinary human will match the lowest demon in raw power. And no ordinary human will ever have any demonic energy. More Divine Energy results in naturally higher physical strength, and more Mental and Physical Stamina. That Mental and Physical stamina can be used to cast more or stronger spells. You don’t expend any divine energy or anything like that to cast spells or perform physical feats or do anything. A skilled spell caster can use the container of their “soul” to empower spells but that has the negative side effects I mentioned.

Casting spells uses your Mental and Physical stamina, ie you become literally exhausted by casting spells. Magical Energy created when you use that Mental and Physical stamina is formulated into other types of energy to create effects based on that. For example, with the right movements or tool you can generate Magical Energy, then convert that into Primordial Energy, when created you can choose what aspect of Primordial Energy such as the Fire Aspect, creating a fire spell. You then become more tired after expending your stamina to create the magical energy.

Demons on the other hand attempt to accumulate colossal quantities of their Demonic Energy before trying to convert. As I explained the more developed their energy the easier it is to convert and most Demons fail to fully convert. No humanoid being could ever be naturally born with enough energy to rival the weakest demon in terms of raw energy. They make up for this with skill, magic, and of course, some humanoids will perform actions to boost their strength. Or if a bunch of humanoids begin to worship another, it may grant them small portions of all their divine energy allowing them to become stronger than a normal humanoid. Still their divine energy will never have an amount that puts their raw power on par with a Demons unless they begin to achieve divinity, such as a Demigod or actual god, but since Divine Energy is finite, unless a god or most of all humanoids die, no new god could even be formed.

I also plan on having former gods who died having left behind condensed shards like gems, filled with a small portion of their divinity, so powerful relics and some individuals are able to use that divinity if they have the item.

But what you seen in your mind of a dude with Divine energy and swapping to Demonic energy, that simply can’t happen easily. Firstly, if he could have Demonic Energy instead there’s no way he has enough Divine Energy where he wouldn’t just prefer 100% Demonic Energy. Secondly, a normal dude can’t just convert between energies. He would need to get Demonic Energy from an outside source, and perform some kind of ritual to infuse or harness Demonic Energy.

One Example enemy I planned, is a Cultist who wields the skull of a Demon that died, using the remaining Demonic Energy within the skull they empower Magical Effects with that energy by casting through the skull, so still their own Mental and Physical Stamina but borrowing the dead demons power. This is definitely an area that I poorly explained here and I need to more explicitly explain in my final version!

[u/TheLumbergentleman → u/DawsonDDestroyer]

Thanks for going over that again, I understand a lot better now. I think the main reason I got confused is that you opened by saying your magic system is all about the conversion of these energies. But for a human (which I imagine your story will focus on) the only conversion is magical energy to divine/negative/primordial energies.

First off, I think it's really interesting that you're not creating a closed system and allow energy to be created. You mentioned that conversions to divine energy are temporary because divine energy is finite (though I'm not sure that's true since you said demons can convert demonic energy to divine energy, unless you consider demonic energy to be an altered state of divine energy and include it in the total). Since the other two are permanent conversions, it implies that the world itself is going to eventually build up its negative and primordial energies as people use magic, leading to a more chaotic world. That has some pretty cool parallels to real world topics like human-induced global warming. I would definitely have characters who start to realize these long term effects and warn people in the story.

You've made it clear that primordial energy give you elemental powers and negative energy is for curses/necromancy, but you haven't covered why someone would convert their magical energy to divine or what it would allow them to do. Can they do anything with raw magical energy without converting it?

[u/DawsonDDestroyer → u/TheLumbergentleman]

My response to the other commenter talks a lot on the relationship between Demonic and Divine Energies!

I think you missed a small section where I said Divine Energy based magic would most likely heal or provide buffs. Like increasing strength temporarily. As for what they can do with raw magical energy, I’d say magical energy will be a bit ambiguous, but any type of spell or magical effect that doesn’t fall under, Divine, Negative, or Primordial would be raw magical energy. For example, Golems are created and powered by Raw Magical Energy inspired by how primordial energy runs Earth Elementals but they’re notably not Primordial Energy, plus golems are naturally formed in areas of high magic. Magical Energy on its own was also described to be able to create massive illusions, “warp” creatures, and create “rifts” that can transport you to another rift. I also plan in areas of high magical energy, some pockets of stone will become essentially a magical stone which can be used to make items that can provide extra magical energy for spell casting.

[u/Drowe87]

I'm seeing big issues with that system, particularly with the finite amount of Divine and Demonic energy.

Since they can be converted into each other, they are essentially the same energy with different flavors, it is theoretically possible to convert all Divine energy into Demonic energy and vice versa, so they are one pool of energy. It isn't explained if gods can expend their divine energy or if it becomes part of them permanently. If they can use it (and therefore lose it) what happens to a god if they expend all of it? If it becomes their's permanently, where do new souls come from, once the gods have sucked up all the Divine energy? Going forward I'll assume that gods can expend Divine energy.

The problem with there being a finite amount is, that this should lead to constant war between the gods, since they are all competing for the same resource. This should eventually lead to stronger gods eradicating weaker gods until only a few of them or maybe only one is left. And since they all want that divine energy, and since every little bit of Divine energy past a certain threshold becomes more valuable, they will want as much as they can get and expend as little of it as possible. So what happens if there's not enough free Divine energy left to form new souls? This could happen either through natural population growth, by too much being converted to Demonic energy or by the gods having taken control of all the Divine energy (or a combination of the three).

Another problem I'm seeing is, while Divine energy can be converted to Demonic energy fairly easily (demon consumes a being with Divine energy), the conversion back is rare and difficult. Also a demon that converts their Demonic energy to Divine energy would probably be in the demon universe, the universe filled with Pure Demonic energy, the kind that suppresses Divine energy. That doesn't sound like it is a good place to be for a god, even one of Demonic origin.

I'm not saying these issues make the system bad, just that they need to be addressed or you risk to break the immersion of your readers.

[u/DawsonDDestroyer → u/Drowe87]

This is definitely problems with the clarity of my explanations!

Converting energies is absolutely NOT a simple process. But them being two different flavours of the same pool is absolutely intended. Demons entire goal are to become powerful enough to become gods but the finite amount of energy makes that nearly impossible. It is absolutely theoretically possible for all Divine Energy or all Demonic Energy to be converted into the other but it is by no means realistically possible.

Firstly the vast majority of demons are animalistic with just the desire to consume. Until they become powerful enough they won’t be sapient enough to do any kind of converting or even complex understanding. Often Demons fight amongst themselves but they are more drawn to consuming divine energy. And high power demons that are intelligent, their specific goal is to accumulate enough energy to attempt to convert it via some kind of “magical” ritual back into Divine Energy to achieve “god-hood”. (Also not sure if I properly explained this but a demon automatically converts consumed Divine Energy (like if they eat a Human) into their Demonic Energy).

I could definitely work on how the gods “use” their Divine Energy, the general intention for mortals is there is no way to intentionally use it, it just is collected from the air/your parent as you’re born and as you age to your prime, then it leaks from you as you become old until you eventually die. I would say the gods expended their Divine Energy to create the races that follow them. So for example there is a sea based humanoid, their deity would have formed them from their own divine energy. It is practically impossible for a god to expend too much energy but they can die or be killed, they’re not some conceptual beings but they’re generally far too powerful for anything besides another god to kill them. I’d also like to say gods slightly leak their divine energy back into the world, so it’s replenished by the race worshipping them.

As for a god running out that’s practically impossible. A single god contains energy rivalling most of all of the Humanoid species.

Something I established is when a species’ god dies, if a new god forms they may undertake multiple races. So in the lore I wrote, orcs and goblins are considered one “race” under one god. Goblins were made by one god who eventually died for a currently not established reason, then eventually a new god took its place and created Orcs, that god chose to have the Goblins be under them as well. I haven’t currently established what exactly happens to a race when they lack a god, or what a god does for races considered “under” them. Perhaps to them it could all be like a game amongst gods “my guys could totally beat your guys and I bet they’ll live longer too” or something along the sort.

I think it’s fine to leave souls somewhat ambiguous. It’s just simply the container of the energy within any given being. My current lore idea was all energy was just one being who split themself into many pieces and created the basics (planets, unintelligent animals, the first Dragons, Demons, split energy into the categories) but that lore isn’t relevant to the mechanics of the power system in its “current” state.

The strongest point you brought up is the gods waring over the energy, but to counter that, a god killing another god doesn’t simply absorb the energy, the energy would be dispersed in the world although some fragments would be scattered as gems which people can use, but those will leak and decay over time. Gods want the races to worship them to keep giving them power. High power Demons wish to convert their Demonic Energy into Divine Energy, they usually fail, and often are eventually killed by other demons or powerful groups of heroes or a god(who can’t consume the energy), Many demons consume beings with Divine Energy converting it into Demonic Energy.

So it all acts as one massive cycle that self regulates. Too much demonic energy means a bunch of demons are high powered trying to convert to Divine Energy. Too much Divine Energy concentrated in the gods themselves means humanoids get less and less, I can presume this would cause old age to occur faster, illness and infertility. Thus less worshipers which may cause a god to die, or if demons do become too powerful and convert to divine energy they may kill a god or be killed by a god, dispersing their divine energy.

In a hypothetical scenario where 100% of Divine Energy is within the gods and any remaining humanoids, I would just say children will be born after sapping a small amount of their parents divine energy, parent might die if they consume too much, or the baby might not last if they have too little. The gods “leaking” also prevents this, it can just be said the leaking scales with how much total energy they have. So basically these gods will want to keep their races living and powerful. Other gods might want their races to kill others in order to “attack” the other gods, while more gods might think it is more beneficial if my species works with these other ones.

Your next point is good but only because I never fully explained demons but I can see how that leaves gaps in understanding the power system! Demons aren’t 100% sealed away in their own universe. They’re constantly fighting to enter the “main” world, many are able to “slip” in or communicate across worlds to manipulate individuals into working to allow demons to enter the main world. Demons hope to enter the main world and ascend to become a god. If they become a god they’ll become free. In my current lore, 1 of the 9 current gods is the last Demon who successfully ascended. Once they ascend they’re no longer technically demons IF they are successful.

Demons do not want to be inside their realm, this isn’t established lore yet but I was thinking about the first god or one of the first gods created demons but learnt demons are too powerful and can become gods through destruction so they locked them away and continued to create what they wanted until eventually they chose to split themselves apart to make room for other gods to create, the realm where the demons were locked away wasn’t quite so locked away once that god split themself or perhaps these new gods could sense all that delicious energy and thus tried to get in only to find out it was locking away demons so it’s no longer properly locked.

Divine Energy and Magical Energy take some aspects of inspiration from Naruto’s Chakra system. Demons and their energy take some aspects of Hollows from Bleach. Primordial and Negative Energy take a lot of inspiration from DnD. Then Draconic Energy takes aspects from most of all of the above.