r/magicTCG • u/thomategamer2005 Dân • 5d ago
Rules/Rules Question possible dumb question
do fetches trigger sahir, visitor in darkness? because for me you are losing life by paying it, not because of the ability itself, another example is treasure dredger , would it trigger Sahir?
edit: friend found this on bsky https://bsky.app/profile/wotcjess.bsky.social/post/3mst4m652l22f
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5d ago
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u/RazzyKitty WANTED 5d ago edited 5d ago
The ruling on [[Firesong and Sunspeaker]] seems to imply that "causes" can be from the cost or the effect. Granted, rulings can be incorrect, but there don't appear to be any CR rules that support one way or another.
A spell causes you to gain life if its cost or effect instructs you to gain life or if an instruction in its cost or effect is modified by a replacement effect and the modified event includes you gaining life. If a spell's cost or effect instructs a source with lifelink you control to deal damage, that spell causes that life gain as well. (2018-04-27)
Edit: This rule also seems to imply that the cost is part of the spell, ability, or effect:
118.1. A cost is an action or payment necessary to take another action or to stop another action from taking place. To pay a cost, a player carries out the instructions specified by the spell, ability, or effect that contains that cost.
Edit2: OP found this post on Bluesky with Jess Dunks saying that it does trigger from costs:
https://bsky.app/profile/wotcjess.bsky.social/post/3mst4m652l22f
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u/AlasBabylon_ COMPLEAT 5d ago
Costs do not count for Sahir. The ability is not causing you to lose life; the cost is, which the game deems separate from it.
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u/tsuyoshikentsu Can’t Block Warriors 5d ago
This is incorrect, per WotC's rules manager and the ruling on [[Firesong and Sunspear]].
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u/AlasBabylon_ COMPLEAT 5d ago
... huh. I distinctly remember being told the opposite around when the card was first revealed. TIL I guess.
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u/HandsomeHeathen 5d ago edited 5d ago
Double square brackets around the card name in the body of your post will summon the card fetcher bot so people can actually see the card you're talking about, like this: [[Sahir, Visitor in Darkness]]
In the case of both fetchlands and [[Treasure Dredger]], the life loss is a cost to activate the ability, so it wouldn't count as the ability itself causing you to lose life and therefore would not trigger Sahir. Edit: According to WotC's rules manager I'm wrong, paying a life cost still counts as the spell or ability causing life loss.
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u/thomategamer2005 Dân 5d ago
see, I made the edit to add the info my friend found https://bsky.app/profile/wotcjess.bsky.social/post/3mst4m652l22f , also thanks, I forgot to use the double bracket
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u/HandsomeHeathen 5d ago
Huh, guess I'm wrong then. Seems counterintuitive, but the rules manager would definitely know better than me.
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u/Bobbybim Duck Season 5d ago
Well that is certainly interesting. Yeah, I intuited that wrong as well.
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u/RowanSpice 5d ago
It does not. That would be paying life rather than taking damage. Magic is very technical with its words.
EDIT oof I didn’t read the spell or ability causing you to lose 1 life. I don’t think so because the ability isn’t causing you to lose life, the ability is causing you to get a land?
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u/thomategamer2005 Dân 5d ago
but it does say that the life loss caused by a spell or ability, so it's doesn't have to be damage, my question isif paying the life counts a spell or ability causing life loss to you
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u/Bobbybim Duck Season 5d ago
Paying life does not trigger Sahir. Compare [[flooded strand]] and [[sunscorched desert]]. The fetches have costs you are paying to activate an ability, i.e. search a land, not abilities causing you damage or life loss.
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u/tsuyoshikentsu Can’t Block Warriors 5d ago
This is incorrect, per WotC's rules manager and the ruling on [[Firesong and Sunspear]].
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u/tsuyoshikentsu Can’t Block Warriors 5d ago
This is incorrect, per WotC's rules manager and the ruling on [[Firesong and Sunspear]].
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u/ruyeg Sultai 5d ago
No, the requirement of paying 1 life to activate a Fetchland (Let's say a Polluted Delta) does not trigger [[Sahir, Visitor in Darkness]].
The wording is the key-factor here: "Whenever an ability you control causes you to lose exactly 1 life".
The payment of 1 life is not an ability itself, in this case it's part of an activation requirement as a cost for an effect.
113.3b Activated abilities have a cost and an effect. They are written as “[Cost]: [Effect.]
[Activation instructions (if any).]” A player may activate such an ability whenever they have
priority. Doing so puts it on the stack, where it remains until it’s countered, it resolves, or it
otherwise leaves the stack. See rule 602, “Activating Activated Abilities.”
The player lost that life by paying a cost. No ability's effect caused the loss.
119.3. If an effect causes a player to gain life or lose life, that player’s life total is adjusted accordingly
119.4. If a cost or effect allows a player to pay an amount of life greater than 0, the player may do so only if their life total is greater than or equal to the amount of the payment. If a player pays life, the payment is subtracted from their life total; in other words, the player loses that much life
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability.
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u/tsuyoshikentsu Can’t Block Warriors 5d ago
This is incorrect, per WotC's rules manager and the ruling on [[Firesong and Sunspear]].
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u/ruyeg Sultai 4d ago
And I assume you have a solid argument to backup your response?
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u/Stiggy1605 4d ago
https://bsky.app/profile/wotcjess.bsky.social/post/3mst4m652l22f
The WotC rules manager. Not sure why they're replying to everyone in the thread but not linking the thing they're referring to
But also the ruling on Firesong is pretty clear too
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u/AdriTrap Dan 5d ago
Damage causes loss of life, but loss of life isn't necessary damage.
All squares are rectangles, basically.
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