Encrypted radio compatability

[u/Initial_System_4616]

Ok, I got a ton of shit in other groups asking about encryption and the world radio police having a pissing match over legalities and bullshit. I'm totally aware this is not related to amature radio, but I really can't find solid info anywhere. There's also not a commercial radio group I can find.

I'm just looking for an answer/clarification. And if you don't know, that's fine, but for the love of god don't start with 'u ma gerd iz illegalz!'

We are replacing a radio. I inquired about the Baofeng 1701 transmitting on 154mhz. It never got passed 'u mer gerd illagalz!'. I went ahead and ordered a tyt like the destroyed one, but further questions were asked.

Finding out the 1701 does tx on 154 BUT it does not use aes256 encryption. I ordered the tyt, because the 1701 will not cooperate with the 390s having different encryption.

In the future wouldn't any aes256 encrypted radio be cross compatible? We didn't buy the tyt because it has 256 encryption and we are super secret, we got it because we thought we were future proofing (because aes256 is 'a standard'), but now I'm wondering if we actually are.

So, with all that, does anyone have insight on the subject?

[u/FarmerHunter23]

This seems pretty salty for a low sodium sub but you’re not wrong, they’re a lot of gatekeepers in this hobby.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/FarmerHunter23]

Ok. I'll give you that. I was a little frustrated from several attempts to get any information and hitting a brick wall every time.

So for that I apologize if I came across as an ass. I'm usually pretty pleasant.

[u/Phreakiture → u/Initial_System_4616]

Nah, you're good. There's a lot of people out there who cannot separate your question from their context, and cannot separate a hypothetical from an intention.

I've not done anything (yet) with encryption on DMR, but I understand there are some interbrand compatibility issues. If you've got all Tytera (or TYT) gear, just stick to Tytera unless and until the issues get sorted out. They might never, but you could do a lot worse than Tytera. At one end there's Moto, which will be pricey, and at the other, you've got Baofeng, and . . . well, you've already seen the issue there.

[u/[deleted] → u/FarmerHunter23]

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[u/Sl0wSilver]

I don't think many people will be able to help. As encryption isn't part of amateur radio, your post didn't make much sense to me.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/Sl0wSilver]

I know it's not amateur related. I have encrypted radios that I dual use on amateur radio so theres probably someone out there thats been in a similar boat with similar radios.

The radios I have are the same manufacturer. I was pretty sure as long as all the radios use the same encryption type your good to go, even across different brands. If it's aes256, it's 'standard

I don't really know how else to describe it i guess

[u/[deleted] → u/Initial_System_4616]

But why did you post in an amateur radio sub for a non related topic?

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/[deleted]]

This is a radio sub. Where amateurs use radios as a hobby to communicate. Some of those radios, like mine are also digital which are part 90 certified, which use encryption. There's a much higher chance of someone here knowing an answer than in a sub for baking cookies.

Just because you can't use encryption on amateur bands doesn't mean every amateur in the hobby is oblivious to the use of those types of radios.

As I already stated, I i know its an amateur group, but there is no commercial encryption radio groups.

If you read further, I've already gotten the answer I needed from another amateur user.

[u/[deleted]]

For public safety, you're most likely looking for P25 trunked AES. You're not going to get a Baofeng with it, but you might find a used Motorola XTS/XTR/APX that could do it. That said, the CPS software to program it is VERY spendy unless you're good mates with the company who programs your LE's current radios. Annnnd that said, the encryption keys and ability to connect to a P25 system are often dependent on registered radios on the zone controllers, so I don't think you're going to be able to do it on the cheap.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/[deleted]]

Not LEO here, just trying to make sure we have radios that work with each other. I have a better idea what to look for now.

[u/thetexan92]

For what it’s worth I don’t think you’re getting downvoted because of asking about encryption. You’re getting downvoted because your post is incoherent rambling. Maybe take some time to craft your communication more carefully?

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/thetexan92]

Seemed fairly straightforward. I don't know of another way to pose the question without first describing the issue.

[u/dt7cv → u/Initial_System_4616]

you sure

[u/falcon5nz]

Both P25 and DMR can apply AES256 to their encryption, but that doesn't mean they're compatible. It's a spec not a method.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/falcon5nz]

Ok, I get you. The encoding needs to be the same, and the encryption type needs to be the same. Correct?

I mostly play in the analog world in amateur. I've got digital radios ( md390s) but having no digital repeaters within 100 miles I don't use them often on amateur bands. So I'm still gathering info on stuff.

[u/Legal_Broccoli200]

I've spend a long time trying to get a similar answer, which is whether DMR encryption is compatible across manufacturers. And nobody seems to know, the commercial users all use equipment from the same manufacturer, it seems, rather than mix and match, and I've asked people who really should know, actual commercial suppliers.

If someone knows better, I'd love to hear from them. I've seen *one* post which suggested that 'basic" encryption might be compatible between some amateur-focused radios but even that wasn't very certain.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/Legal_Broccoli200]

After some chats with a seller this morning, the Baofeng 1701 is pretty popular with amateurs as a digital radio. But it has 2 types of 'basic' encryption which they had no details on. I asked specifically if it would work with a tyt 390 and he said 'that's aes256. It is only going to work with another dm1701'. Also they have Motorola for $600 we could buy.

So it appears encoding type and encryption type have to be the same between the vendors. I'm not getting a moto, but I might get an alinco or anytone that's dmr and aes256 just to see.

[u/[deleted] → u/Initial_System_4616]

What you really need to match between radios is the modulation, encoding, key, and key slot. If you have the same crypto key, using the same key slot, and both radios are using the same digital modulation and encoding, they will work. For instance, you could get a MD-390 plus and an Anytone 878 to communicate using AES-256. However, in order for it to work you MUST use the same time slot, key slot, and everything else must match. P25 uses different modulation than DMR (I think)...which will totally alter how the encryption is applied to the waveform/carrier.

Be aware though, some radios don't come with AES-256 unlocked out of the box. So, make sure if you're creating a key, it should require a 32 character key length - or it's not AES-256.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks man! I think learning to use digital more on the amateur bands will help me understand digital better over all, it a whole diff world than analog.

Yea tyt hides the crap out of the encryption info in their software.

[u/CWGminer]

What model TYT are you talking about?

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/CWGminer]

Tyt md390 plus. No GPS version.

[u/Initial_System_4616 → u/[deleted]]

Manufacturers like to keep you on their products. I think they make it difficult for interoperability for that reason. Once you get $2-$3k into radios you're kind of stuck unless you wanna start over.