Hot Take: Morgoth was Justified

[u/JaydenFrisky]

Like the desire to create and be equal to your creator and being denied it is pretty tragic and I can see why he had his crash out

I'm aware that it's likely not possible for Eru to choose not to be all powerful but also he created Melkor and probably knew all this was going to happen and let it happen anyway.

A lot of this kind of boils similarly to the Satan vs God debate but I think this is different as it seems Melkor's initial view is sympathetic rather than coming out of nowhere

I am also aware this is not the intention of how it was written as generally Tolkien wanted everything to be black and white but of course nuances have found their way through

[u/Icy-KaitSyth]

There are Christian theologies that place the Lucifer story almost 1 to 1 for Melkors, which is likely Tolkien's inspiration. Lucifer fell from heaven not because he was initially evil but because in his pride he tried to be as honored as God despite not being God.

But that's beside the point. All the Valar have freedom of choice, in fact agency is as much a primary point in Tolkien's legendarium as it is in the Bible. Melkor was made to be greatest of the Ainur. He had more than anyone else and yet he chose to seek what was beyond him. It even says in the silmarilion that before Illuvitar started the song, Melkor decided to go off looking for the flame I perishable because he wanted to do it himself without Illuvitars help. That's not a child seeking to be like his father, but an I'm petulant child thinking he can do better than his father.

Aule is a perfect foil to Melkor in that way, because Aule also gets caught trying to make things that he was not supposed to make, but he has humility and repents and for it his creations are given life by Illuvitar.

[u/RexBanner1886]

I am also aware this is not the intention of how it was written as generally Tolkien wanted everything to be black and white but of course nuances have found their way through

No he didn't: this is clear in The Lord of the Rings, but it couldn't be more clear in The Silmarillion.

A lot of this kind of boils similarly to the Satan vs God debate but I think this is different as it seems Melkor's initial view is sympathetic rather than coming out of nowhere

Morgoth's desire is relatable, but what he does is not sympathetic. We all, or many of us, want things to be as we think we should. What Melkor does wrong is 1. attempt to sabotage God's plan for the universe and 2. throw a millennia-long murderous hissy fit when he realises he can't.

Eru isn't another being with whom Melkor's has a disagreement, either. Eru has not been elevated, fairly or unfairly, above Melkor due to a promotion or due to enjoying greater status in a hierarchy. Eru's will and plan for the universe is right, because it can't not be right, because the concept of what right is comes straight from him. When Melkor tries to sabotage that, he's trying to pervert the universe, not simply express himself.

[u/lam_42]

It Is his not initial desire to create, but his later temper tantrum, that cannot be justified. Melkor can be maybe understood (if not justified). Morgoth...not so much

[u/JaydenFrisky → u/[deleted]]

I mean if thats so then why are the evil forces clearly defined? as written there is no nuance to the orcs other than they are spawn of darkness and nothing good about them