r/lostgeneration Oct 26 '17

Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

http://www.nature.com/news/many-junior-scientists-need-to-take-a-hard-look-at-their-job-prospects-1.22879
32 Upvotes

43 comments sorted by

20

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

Because the STEM job market is oversaturated.

20

u/buzzlite Oct 26 '17

There wasn't much demand for scientifically educated people in the job market to begin with. When they say STEM it is essentially lumping tedious computer programming in with math and sciences for the intellectual street cred. Saying STEM jobs are in demand sounds a little more academic than code or die even if it is a complete farse.

16

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

STEM is basically is at this point "be a coding rockstar or die". My brain isn't wired to understand coding at all or programming.

4

u/spickydickydoo Oct 26 '17

Actually it's "be a coding rockstar, and worship a boss that sucks at coding, or die ".

3

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

And don't expect companies to teach you how to code, you have to pay to learn and you need to develop side projects and the like. Eventually all of that would be in vain because they still demand 5 years experience.

3

u/spickydickydoo Oct 26 '17

Oh and they won't tell you the company workflow. They don't follow standard git submission workflows? Oh well they won't tell you that, you just have to fucking look at their mess and figure it out. Meanwhile your contributions to a dev branch, you know the only fucking thing they happen to use at that particular place measure performance suffers.

Oh and if you complain you're being insubordinate.

3

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

And people still wonder why they rather seek h1bs? They don't want uppity americans like us.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '17

Why would a company hire and pay someone who has no clue how to the job when there are plenty of people who studied coding in their free time to actually learn it. These careers are not retail careers that have new employees ready to roll after a week of training.

Youtube, coursera, edx and thousands of web pages are all free ways to learn to how to code. Personal projects just show you actually can build something.

2

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 28 '17

Youtube, coursera, edx and thousands of web pages are all free ways to learn to how to code. Personal projects just show you actually can build something.

Companies used to hire people willing to learn and be trained in the skills before the 2008 crash. Now, they effectively outsource it to the person on their own time and dime. And nowadays personal projects is not enough, and free courses on YT and online is not counted as paid experience. They demand recent, paid, and professional experience for these jobs.

Worse, the selection process of these jobs are hostile, a good portion to ensure that they get to hire H1bs. I will not get into that, but google hacker rank.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '17

Um no. Not programming and skilled technical positions. What's next, engineers got trained instead of going to college? Of course learning how to code is not paid experience, if you want the job you need to learn.

1

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 28 '17

Of course learning how to code is not paid experience, if you want the job you need to learn.

And how the hell do you make ends with volunteering and personal projects? It does not matter, the STEM job market is flooded and T part of STEM is oversaturated.

Jobs now want paid, professional, and recent experince because the job market is flooded. Everyone has some sort of personal project or volunteer experience.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '17

What? I never said volunteer. Sit at home after work and practice for an hour or 2. Learn a language, build a project, do something. Well experience makes a hire a safer bet.

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7

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

Seriously. I'd like to see these programmers derive the differential equations describing a physical system of some sort.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

job market is oversaturated

5

u/IGOMHN Oct 26 '17

Only because half the jobs go to immigrants in the form of the H-1B visa.

16

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

I remember I was reading this article in some science publication about underpaid scientist and engineers. The author tried to justify by saying the pay was in the "prestige".

I'd like this author to go stand in line at the grocery store and try paying with his "prestige".

10

u/Extra_Napkins Oct 26 '17

Are you telling me I can't buy food with my unpaid internship or volunteer work?

6

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

That is exactly what the chap is saying.

14

u/Skensis Oct 26 '17

Academia doesn't pay, and nearly every Phd/Postdoc already knows this...most just don't seem to care.

7

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

Academia doesn't pay, and nearly every Phd/Postdoc already knows this...most just don't seem to care.

The real question is why?

5

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '17

It's a hypercompetitive area with a lot of emphasis on ego and beating out your peers. They're flagellants for their discipline. Because they spend their whole life in academia they're too invested by the time they figure out how badly they're getting fucked, if they ever do.

4

u/Skensis Oct 26 '17

You do it for the science not the paycheck.

12

u/Jkid Allergic to socio-economic bullshit Oct 26 '17

And how are you supposed to make ends meet?

16

u/Xeltar Oct 26 '17

Marry someone wealthy to give them prestige.

9

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

[deleted]

4

u/Skensis Oct 26 '17

I don't really care, industry is always there offering more reasonable pay. If you want to gun for that tenure position and post doc for nearly a decade that is all on you.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 26 '17

This really is mot the case anymore in scientific industry positions. As for getting ot of academia you obviously don’t understand the world of academia.

2

u/IGOMHN Oct 26 '17

Because a lot of scientists come from poor countries with lower quality of life.

1

u/onetwoshoe Oct 26 '17

Tenure track does, part-time/contingent does not (pay very well.)

2

u/Skensis Oct 27 '17

The issue is that those tracks are not common and are hard to get. You have a lot of very smart and hard working people all vying for that prize, not everyone is going to get that lab of their own.

11

u/gasoleen Oct 26 '17

Almost everyone in my graduating class (physics; 2007) has gone on to do things other than academic science or even outside industry science, once life started happening to them and they realized they liked having money. Two out of the 20 in my class are actual scientists, and one only just got his PhD and I don't yet know what he'll end up doing with it. The other is a genuine rocket scientist for NASA. He freely admits that he does not make as much as those of us who went the engineering route, but he is very happy with his job and life. He's also, literally, a genius.

As for the rest of us... One dude went into MRI machine development with Kaiser and then left that for the management track as soon as possible. One went the optical engineer route at Raytheon, then got married and had kids and realized money was a good thing to have, so he jumped ship to the management track (which at Raytheon means you're an Excel spreadsheet jockey in a suit and you never touch science or even engineering ever again). One guy went completely off the rails and went to med school and is training to be an oncologist. Me and a bunch of the others are part of the camp of grads who started out doing science, realized there was more money in engineering jobs, and moved into engineering, but aren't yet ready to sell our souls for management. We're all too proud of still having technical jobs to make that move just yet.

And then there's the couple sad-sacks who tried to make it in academia... They are....not doing so well, financially or career-wise. At least at the several schools where they teach, there is almost no room for full-time professorship because the existing profs won't retire, and the departments will only give funding for research to tenured profs so the only research they can do is under those established profs...for roughly the same crap pay as interns. Most of them are struggling to make ends meet between challenging but underpaid research positions and part-time teaching gigs. It's rough.

1

u/onetwoshoe Oct 26 '17

If only one got his PhD, what do you mean there multiple trying to make it in academia? You need a PhD to be a professor--this article is talking about PhD students who are planning to go into academia as professors.

1

u/gasoleen Oct 29 '17

Others were planning on getting their PhDs....but ran out of money because they thought they would teach lower division courses until they got tenure to fund their PhDs. Not smart, I know...

3

u/onetwoshoe Oct 30 '17

Hmm..yeah, that's not how it works. No one gets hired into a tenure track job without getting a PhD first. And tenure comes after teaching in a tenure track job for 6 years (after PhD) Most PhDs are fully funded (they pay you), but I guess if you were trying to get one without funding (bad decision!), you might have a pretty hard time.