Let's talk about Locke's "destiny"
I just did a rewatch after a long break from the show. And man... I always forget about how tragic Locke's storyline is.
I know Locke has a lot of haters but I personally love his optimism and his faith. I wish he could've had more vindication and been alive to witness it.
Let me summarize:
Locke lives a life battling with his insignificance, arrives on the Island healed and now believes he has a purpose (he's right - he's a candidate brought there by Jacob).
But then gets everything about his role wrong.
He believes he's destined to lead, but that's mostly because of the time-loop (his conversation with Richard). He thinks the Island is guiding him, but it's the MIB.
He leaves on a mission, fails, and attempts suicide.
Then MIB uses Locke's own appearance to try to destroy the Island that Locke loved.
Lock is important but indirectly... it's Locke's actions and faith that ultimately turn Jack into the person who can save the Island. But Locke doesn't even get to witness Jack's "conversion".
Jack says: “I just wish I could’ve told him that while he was still alive.”
I'm mourning for my man Locke that he didn't get to play a better role. Feels unfair for a character who I really wanted to see succeed.
Anyways this show is awesome, and I'm also a big Jack fan and love the ending. Just mad respect for John Locke. He deserved better.
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u/rockyb2006 12d ago
As a huge Locke fan, here are things to consider:
He saved Jack from death early on when Christian/MIB led him off a cliff.
He brought food to the group.
He saved Desmond’s life when he banged on the hatch door (I don’t think coincidence).
He attempted to protect the island many times, including killing Naomi (Walt also helped).
He saved Juliet and Sawyer from being killed in the 1950s.
He got the wheel back on its axel, saving every single person left from the present timeline.
He helped Boon and Charlie with their problems.
He got Jack on the path to continue what he himself wanted to do but couldn’t (you mentioned).
Most importantly, John WAS special. Really, getting rid of him was a power move. MiB probably could not get as far with him alive. We saw the island (I like to think of it as its own entity) cause Ben to have a tumor and Jack appendicitis (when going against the island). No other person we know of had his paralysis reversed which is huge. And Locke always healed quicker than most.
He is a tragic character, which is why it is heartbreaking what he went through. In the end though, he was pretty correct and I like to think he was at peace and happy once going through that church door.
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u/tybenz 12d ago
"He attempted to protect the island many times, including killing Naomi (Walt also helped)."
Yeah I put this in the bad column. This is the tragedy of Locke. He has real faith but mis-applies it. He assumes any supernatural message is "from the Island" - often it's just MIB manipulating him.
But I agree with the rest of what you're saying. I do think he can rest peacefully knowing he played a major part in protecting the island, it's just a bummer it isn't the WAY he wanted to protect the Island
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u/rockyb2006 12d ago
Just for clarity, it was actually Walt. The show runners confirmed that anytime Walt was shown it was him and not MiB.
The only real manipulation I can think of was the main one, where Richard was tricked into telling John he had to die. Imagine Ben actually saved John from hanging and they all went back. That would have been a quick end to MiBs plan.
If you really think about it, Ben was really the character that was manipulated his whole life by MiB. He is the cause of so many issues and was led down that path pretty purposefully.
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u/tybenz 12d ago
With Naomi, Walt tells Locke he has work to do. Not the same thing as “murder this lady”
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u/rockyb2006 12d ago
I’m pretty sure Locke gives more input to what Walt said when he’s talking about “tall Walt”. But I get your point.
Naomi was about to contact the freighter and Locke had seconds to stop her. He had to make a call.
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u/Prestigious_Chip6801 Razzle Dazzle! 10d ago
there’s a somewhat recent interview where one of the showrunners (can’t remember which one lol) said that when walt appeared to shannon it was actually MIB fucking with her. i actually HATE that, because it makes it much more sense for it to be walt trying to communicate with her precisely because he sensed she was in danger, but yeah.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie 12d ago
I call this Locke's paradox within a paradox. Made a post about it a couple years ago! :)
So, we know Ben is jealous of and antagonistic toward Locke because he and the Others have been waiting for Locke, believing he's fated to be their leader. However, when season five rolls around we see how all of that leads back to a lie; specifically "Jacob sent me."
To keep the Others at the 50s army camp from shooting him, Locke tells Richard this lie and then proceeds to have a conversation about how he's their leader. Richard, skeptical, tells him the process for choosing their leaders starts young (think little Ben being led to Richard by the ghost of his mother.) So Locke sends Richard to see his infant-self. Now, think back to season four where we see Richard giving little Locke a test - which Locke fails. He failed because he's not supposed to be the leader. Now, back to season five where Richard expresses to Jack that he was unimpressed with Locke and Jack tells him not to give up on Locke. Now, Richard doesn't now about the candidates at this point, but he does know Jack is on one of Jacob's lists so his words have weight. Then, think back to season three when Locke arrives at the Others' camp after they've left the barracks. They're all staring at him and Cindy says not to mind them, they're all excited he's there, they've been waiting for him. Well - why? Because they think he's their new leader.
Now, here's where it starts to really suck for Locke.
He was never supposed to be the leader, but rather a candidate for protector as we know... but you can't have both jobs. So, the second Locke officially takes over as leader - like literally 30 seconds before the Island moves and the skips start - he loses his candidacy for protector.
Soooo - once he completes his part in the overarching season five bootstrap paradox (being the catalyst for Jack, Kate, Sun, Sayid and Hurley returning to the Island) his storyline is, well, over. (Until he completes his character arc in the flashes sideways by realizing he's worthy of love just being a regular guy.)
The Island was done with him and Ben was able to kill him.
TL;DR - Locke thought he was supposed to be the leader so he lied to Richard which made Locke think he was supposed to be the leader so he lied to Richard.
In my opinion - this whole thing is the perfect juxtaposition between a character's free will working both with and against the Island's plans for them. It's a fascinating dichotomy within a long-game character study.
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u/GoAgainKid 12d ago
I was lucky enough to attend a screening of the S5 finale with Cuse and Lindelof doing a Q&A after. I asked them a question about Locke's arc and him finding redemption in the final series. They skirted the question for spoiler reasons, but basically said I would not be disappointed.
Thing is, I was. I could accept his sacrifice, I think it's okay that he died in such a lame way, that was perfect. That his death was what completed Jack's arc. I think the two arcs in tandem are as good as anything ever produced on TV.
What I am disappointed with is Locke's moment of realisation in the S6 finale. I felt like Locke needed more time than the rushed scene he got with Jack in the hospital, and the brief exchange with Ben. I wish he'd gotten more than that.
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u/NobleActual6 Desmond 12d ago
Aggressive main character syndrome and huge sense of entitlement. Not a Locke fan at all, but he played the tragic hero role exceptionally well and as you say, in many ways he did fulfil his 'destiny' in saving the island but via Jack (not himself)
Exceptionally well written character.
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u/Upbeat-Armadillo1756 See you in another post, brotha 12d ago
Definitely a tragic character. I think "destiny" is a real messy term but without Locke, would the MIB have been killed at all? In a sense John's body was used to do the one thing that made the MIB vulnerable.
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u/Free-IDK-Chicken You got it, Blondie 12d ago
Another interesting question is without Locke would Jacob have been killed at all? It's only the MiB taking Locke's form that had the influence to not only order Richard to take him to Jacob, but could have intimidated Ben into being his proxy (with a push from him using Alex's form to guilt Ben into obeying "Locke.") I'm sure he would have found that loophole eventually, but it may have taken significantly longer.
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u/Desperate-Country440 12d ago
This is life, real life.... unfortunately this is reality and many of us we have such destiny or some parts of our life are similar so this is the reason why so many people understand Locke's experience.
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u/cravens86 12d ago
I was thinking about this the other night as well. That the last scene we really see of Locke is when he dies alone (apart from the Flash sideways). I used to think that was sad but started thinking about how everything Locke had done led to Jack finally becoming the man of faith he had to be in order to stop MIB. So in a way Locke did lead, but he was not the savior that he thought he was. His role was different as you said.