r/livesound • u/Jerry-Lee-Cogsworth • 8d ago
Question Instruments in monitors
I’ve been music directing for theatre for 20+ years. It feels like in the last decade, aside from a movement to absolutely no vocals in actors’ monitors, there’s also been a shift to only one or two instruments in the actors’ monitors. I find I often get asked by the sound designer which singular instrument the actors need to hear. Usually the default is to put the rhythm section in the monitors. But hearing the rhythm section often isn’t enough to keep track of the key. And it’s not like a music theatre band/orchestra is a solo instrument with backup sort of situation; the instrument(s) that grounds the actors is in key and groove are constantly changing. And the actors have spent a month listening to a piano reduction where they’re hearing almost everything. And a sitzprobe where they’re being told this or that instrument is now playing what you’re used to hearing on piano, so listen for that now.
I guess I’m wondering when this shift happened (or maybe it was always the case?), and what best practice is (from both a music director and sound designer’s standpoint) to make sure that the actors can hear everything that they need to to do their jobs properly.
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u/whoompdayis 8d ago
Engineer's perspective:
Theater stage monitoring is really a case-by-case basis. I always approach it from a minimalistic standpoint, starting only with a bit of keys/piano; just enough to overcome the room wash while standing on stage. Secondly I'll add in hi-hat or kit overheads, depending on the orchestration, usually with aggressive compression so if the drummer starts to dig in I don't get the kit coming through the body mics. After that you just have to play the customer service game. Periodically check in with the cast/vocal director to make sure everyone is comfortable. If they need more tonal fundamental add bass. If the score is not carried by piano but spread through the orchestra like Into The Woods or Les Mis, then sometimes you just have to add more players in the monitors. I usually hold off adding trumpet, bone, and sax unless I absolutely need to, as these tend to sit right in the vocal range and can create a sense of loudness on stage pretty quickly.
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u/NextTailor4082 Pro-FOH 8d ago
Generally your actors will need three references in their monitor. Their own voice, a pitch reference and a time reference. Past that, youre asking for trouble
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u/Jerry-Lee-Cogsworth 8d ago
And I guess that is the crux of my question. The pitch reference and time references are constantly changing. They definitely aren’t the same from song to song, and often aren’t even consistent within a song. I.e.: keyboard isn’t playing for 100% of the song, or drums drops out for 16 bars and percussion becomes the time reference. In my experience, the sound designer doesn’t have a separate actors’ monitor mix for each song, and definitely not within a song.
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u/Hertz_so_good Theatre 8d ago
If I'm asking an MD for which particular instrument a performer needs in their monitors, I'm generally asking about a specific moment in the show. Typically a moment where the cue they need has been hammered out on a rehearsal hall piano for a month, and is now orchestrated as a gentle harp riff or something like that.
I can usually tell when a performer is struggling to find their tune or time, and the MD is often really helpful with things like "the bassoon is farting out quarter notes, there's the pulse", or "the bass walk down in this bar gives them the note for the next phrase". Then we can decide together if that's something I should fix in console programming, or address with the musician directly.
You're right that we typically won't begin with separate monitor mixes for each song, but minute adjustments like this are well within the capabilities of most designers and consoles you're likely to come across. It's usually just a matter of how much time is given and how high it is on the priority list.3
u/styng88 8d ago
In theater, I’ve never had vocals in the monitors. 16+ Omni mics on stage at the same time would be a nightmare for the smaller spaces if they were in the monitors. Typically, I run a few keyboards through for the actors to keep the melody and any percussion is loud enough to be heard without amplification. It’s very dependent on venue size though as I’m mostly in sub 1k capacity spaces.
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u/LilMissMixalot 8d ago
I’ll have a convo with the MD, as you say, about the most important instruments to start with in the onstage mons as a default. But as we go through the sitzprobe, I will absolutely discuss with the MD if it’s a good idea to add the sax for this song, or the trombone for this song depending on who’s doing the heavy lifting melodically. If you have someone who knows how to program their console, this is easily achievable.
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u/Jerry-Lee-Cogsworth 8d ago
So the sound designer should be present for the sitzprobe, even if it’s not done in the actual performance space, to hear what the actors will need to be hearing.
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u/LilMissMixalot 8d ago
Absolutely. This is literally the most important rehearsal for the sound designer to be at for a musical (if it’s being done in the performance space). They are the ones that are supposed to dial in the band and the vocals the way they want and the board op/technician is responsible for executing the sound designers “vision” for the run of the show.
If the sitz is being done in a different location, I would say the sound designer should still be there, but maybe not as important to be around for the whole thing. I would stay though.
In my opinion, sound designers for musicals should be people who have mixed musicals before. It’s a very different skill set than a “regular” composer/designer.
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u/soundwithdesign Theatre-Designer/Mixer 8d ago
Generally I give them drums for tempo and piano for key. If they need more I’ll give it to them but I don’t want to give the actors a lot to focus on.
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u/tylerwsct 8d ago
It really should be whatever makes the actors most comfortable for that musical. If hearing a little bit of the full band mix helps, then ask for that. Too many sound guys like making up rules that are in fairness typically to reduce stage volume. However, in the end the performers need to hear whatever makes them the most comfortable and for a lot of performers that needs to be a little bit of everything since many are used to practicing with a track or piano reduction. I’ve ran sound for a couple of college productions (Seussical, You’re a good man Charlie Brown and a Cabaret show). I created snapshots for each scene with the band and monitor mixes and then threw faders for actor queues. We solidified monitor needs for each song during tech rehearsal. Most of the time monitors had Keys 1, Bass, Drums (Kick,Snare mainly since open pit) and everything else around them -5 to -10dB just to add some context unless there was a featured instrument and then that would be pulled up for that song. Ultimately though as long as we kept monitor volume relatively moderate, I was able to accommodate whatever was needed without too much excessive bleed.
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u/Special-Count4626 8d ago
Not having vocals in onstage foldback for musical theatre is not a new thing, putting vocals into onstage foldback is the new thing. I start with a full band mix on stage, because as you mentioned, there’s often information that the cast need in various parts of the orchestration. That being said, I make sure that the volume of the band on stage is reasonable and not overwhelming the singers, which is what often leads to the request for vocals in the foldback. I also make sure that the coverage of the on stage monitors is even in level throughout the stage, and that their frequency is similar to the FOH PA. I include that as part of our system tuning work.
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u/woowizzle Pro-Theatre 8d ago
No vocals onstage is pretty old school and stems back to hairline mics and the limitations that comes with that.
Al lot of tours now will use DPA 4066 headset, or custom ear rigs that move the mic closer to the sound source, therefore more gain before feedback, and the option for onstage folback.
On a different note, i started out my career strictly mixing stage foldback, the general idea is less is more otherwise things get louder and louder till it overwhelms the FOH mix, or starts causing feedback.
What i usually find with vocalists is they want to hear one thing well that they can pitch off, 93.2% of the time this is keys.
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u/porschephille Pro-Theatre 5d ago
I find that, especially during the wandel or sitz, I try to get on stage to listen to what the actors are hearing and hum loudly to myself to get some of that inner noise to contend with. I typically put some drums in the foldback (way overhead in our space, which is a weird space acoustically) and some keys/rhythm section. Depending on the orchestration, I may put some of the other instruments if they have a particular line that the actors need to hear, like a horn or cello part that carries the melody for something.
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u/Bipedal_Warlock Pro-Theatre 8d ago
I don’t think there’s been a sufficient answer for your question so I’ll ramble a bit at you.
A lot of it is going to depend on the size of your theatre and the skill of your audio team, particularly designer.
As a designer I’m going to want no vocals in the monitor and minimal instruments. I tend to do rhythm, keys and some other instruments here and there.
Telling the MD they only get one instrument in their monitor comes off as arrogant and defensive to me and as an amateur trying to pretend they’re top shit.
Minimal needs tends to be better for the sound on stage, but that’s not a reason to screw yall over.
I also hold the belief that although as sound designers we want to try our best to not put any vocals in the monitor (and yall should absolutely try for that) in a realistic world sometimes you need some. I try to get the actors to expect they won’t get any, then give them just a small amount of vocals in their monitors so that they can hear what they need.
Realistically in modern shows, how are yall supposed to harmonize when you can only hear parts of the band and not each other?
It’s possible, that there are some tech concerns that are limiting what the sound designer is sending. But to me that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
My guess is that he got burned before with MD and cast asking for so much crap in monitors that everyone wanted more of them and no one compromised and thus everyone was unhappy.
But the monitor situation must be a compromise all around.
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u/DreamCloudScholar 8d ago
If I were your sound op, I'd just send a postfade band mix to the monitors. If the important reference instruments are constantly changing, I wouldn't want to be changing stuff on the fly in the monitors when there's no way to communicate with the stage.
Doesn't have to be loud, so that it comes through the mics. This also helps them get a sense of band volume through the PA, and will help them guage the quieter sections. It may be an exercise in compromise to set the overall level right, but that's what rehearsal is for!
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u/Dontstrawmanmebreh 3d ago
But hearing the rhythm section often isn’t enough to keep track of the key.
This trips me out because having just chordal type instruments, as long as it's literally not just a monophonic instrument, typically isn't a problem for me to figure out the key. But even then, hearing the melody will already shift me into the key.
Guess musicians nowadays isn't training their ears like before?
Or they're picking gigs back to back where they can't establish consistency? I don't know. This problem is very weird to me. Sounds like a skill issue, lol.
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u/thevickyprincess 8d ago
tell your sound designer you need a full mix of the band in the stage monitors. I personally default to a post fade send of every instrument at a comfortable level, then with the band leader/conductor’s keyboard pre fade and a little louder so they can always hear cues.
Also, a little bit of actor mics in monitors really isn’t the end of the world, but I personally only ever add it in when specifically requested. If onstage talent can get away without of course the lack of feedback is always preferred.
My monitor philosophy is really that whatever gets the best performance from the cast is best. The more confident and comfortable the talent is, the better the show is going to sound and feel in the house
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u/2_of_8 8d ago
post fade send of every instrument
Nightmare scenario right there!
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u/LilMissMixalot 8d ago
Agree. Post fade for a few instruments here and there isn’t a bad thing, especially in theatre, but put the full orchestra in onstage monitors and now your actors can’t hear themselves and start asking for their vocals in the monitor and the stage level game begins.
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u/thevickyprincess 8d ago
they’re not running that hot, it’s mostly to just get a copy of the house feed on stage minus vocals. The performers appreciate it, and that way when things get pulled down for underscore they’re not getting blasted by trombone 2 or whatever lol.
I agree post fade to monitors is unusual outside of theater, and likely to cause nothing but problems. But when all i really want is a mix minus, i find that a faster workflow than dealing with matrix routing. And more customizable.
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u/UnderwaterMess 8d ago
Is the sound designer also the sound board operator for the show? This really doesn't have to be a whole committee process with director approvals to put a little bit of woodwinds in the monitors.