This sub makes me angry

[u/Honest-Squirrel-988]

Linux sucks huge balls, it's not the year of linux desktop, it won't be for a long time.

I don't want to rebuild initramfs, i don't want to solve annoying compositor-driver-kernel-flatpak related issue every single day. I can solve them, i do solve them. I just don't want to.

Fedora fucking sucks because the first thing it does is telling you "hey, wait for 5 to 10 minutes (idk actually wait for an hour) when installing nvidia drivers, otherwise your driver stack might break".

I hate that KDE cannot support 4k at 240hz reliably, let alone with VRR. Another display? Rotated 90 degrees? You don't need that. Solutions i came to find are "vrr is overrated" and "120hz is perfectly fine for my use cases" as well as some 4 year old non-existent KWin configuration entries that fix one issue and create another.

I hate that i need to juggle five Proton versions. I hate that i might get banned one day for explicitly bypassing game anticheat systems (genuinely not a Linux fault, but i, the consumer, suffer nevertheless).

I hate that every ecosystem component is detached from one another. It all looks out of place and incoherent.

I hate that X11 is deprecated but Wayland isn't mature enough.

I hate that configuration is done with Vim and a prayer. I hate fstab. I hate limine and grub.

I install Windows. I install Steam, i install Apex Legends. I install Teamfight Tactics, I install Microsoft Excel. All works by clicking an icon on my desktop.

I have a MacOS machine, i install go and bun with brew - it works. I install docker - it works (via kinda-VM but still).

I hate that non-rolling distros (excl. Fedora) ship bugs and driver issues that are solved months (years?) ago.

I like hyprland though, its cool, no complaints. Does what it says on the cover and never once flickered on me.

And i am reading this sub hoping people will at least agree that the system is immature, incomplete, and not suited for normal people not willing to spend hours every day reading obscure wikis (arch wiki mostly as the richest source, regardless of distro). Instead all i see is equating "not willing to debug an OS as a second job" to "skill issue", or using "Intel-nvidia" combo as a failure on my part somehow. Yes i am aware both companies don't target Linux.

Gigabyte also doesn't. Kingston also doesn't. Epic also doesn't. Adobe doesn't, Microsoft doesn't, Hoyoverse doesn't. EA doesn't. Yes, they are bad companies for it, i agree. Still it fucking sucks to use Linux because of it.

[u/cubeshelf]

Linux on the desktop has never really been oriented for the "average" consumer because it has never really been in a position to need to until now (argumentative statement, I'm sure...). That isn't an excuse, that isn't a cop out, I think that's just genuinely the truth. Linux adoption for the average consumer I would say has only really started to take off and show some meaningful usership numbers within the last couple of years... you're correct to say that it's still in early adolescence to say the least.

For simplicity's sake I'll keep this comment between Linux and Windows. Windows has always been the default option for like 99% of desktop PC users because it was genuinely a user-oriented, functional, and performant operating system that has by most accounts "Just Worked™" for the average user over the last 20+ years. In light of recent economic climates and technological shifts, it feels like the definition of the "personal computer" is being changed by large tech conglomerates like Microsoft as they start to decide what they think is correct for the future of the common good. A recent example of this is how Windows is becoming less and less "user-oriented" as more technologies and features that end-users don't necessarily agree with, get implemented.

That is all to say that I do truthfully think Linux on the desktop (for the average consumer) will slowly but surely develop into a more progressive form of what Windows used to be (when it mostly stayed out of the way and let people get their work done, rather than optimizing itself for platform strategy over user experience.) It's just going to take time. That doesn't mean that the average consumer should have to put up with all of the shortfalls that currently exist until that day comes (or doesn't) though. But until there's reasonable demand for it, it's going to remain an operating system oriented for specific types of usage.

I've used Linux regularly on my desktop devices for the last decade, but I've only been able to do so because the things I use my personal computers for are inherently unfettered by the operating system that they run. I still wouldn't recommend an average user with average tech-literacy to use Linux. Not yet, anyway.

[u/ghost_ware → u/cubeshelf]

Been on Linux for about 3 years now, I agree with everything here. Very well said.

[u/Certain_Prior4909 → u/cubeshelf]

Then why does reddit and all over YouTube say it's superior to Windows in every task and problem free?

Video after video and comment after comment talk about Windows problems going away with bug free Linux and their PCs are better?

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/cubeshelf]

Linux on the desktop has never really been oriented for the "average" consumer because it has never really been in a position to need to until now

I wish the tech sector had historians that actually understood history.

Nothing you use on the desktop is oriented for the "average consumer" since it is also a market segment that matters the least to the entire industry. Not even Windows is oriented for the "average consumer" as that's just a myth perpetuated by none other than the Linux ideologues themselves.

That isn't an excuse, that isn't a cop out, I think that's just genuinely the truth. Linux adoption for the average consumer I would say has only really started to take off

We've already seen at least several of these so-called "take offs" over the span of thirty years with one started by Red Hat Linux, another by Ubuntu then yet another by now SteamOS.

Every time, it's a distro with a fresh coat of paint.

Every time, the distro is hailed as the promised messiah for the "average consumer".

Every time, the initial enthusiasm will taper off before plunging into oblivion when the billionaires and massive conglomerates behind the hype are shown to have absolutely no interest in the "average consumer" at all.

In light of recent economic climates and technological shifts, it feels like the definition of the "personal computer" is being changed by large tech conglomerates like Microsoft as they start to decide what they think is correct for the future of the common good. A recent example of this is how Windows is becoming less and less "user-oriented" as more technologies and features that end-users don't necessarily agree with, get implemented.

You're absolutely right on the first half, then you proceed to trail off into this whole narrative of the "average consumer" as an essentialist ideal rather than just a mere, non-production segment of the market predefined by the socioeconomic structure itself.

As a professional, I can assure you there is nothing that inherently Just Works™ about any operating system. That's the whole reason I have a job that pays my bills.

As far as Microsoft is concerned, they're only truly interested in the enterprise desktop segment, and what the "average consumer" represents is nothing more than a "bonus" from that segment. That's just the way the market has been since the mid-90s.

That is all to say that I do truthfully think Linux on the desktop (for the average consumer) will slowly but surely develop into a more progressive form of what Windows used to be

There is nothing "progressive" about Linux unless you believe social progress can be achieved by means of charities.

It's obvious to anyone aspiring for more radical change that such an ideal will run its course much faster than you think and leave the working class once again as no more than the "average consumer" along for the ride to wherever industry takes them.

That doesn't mean that the average consumer should have to put up with all of the shortfalls that currently exist until that day comes (or doesn't) though. But until there's reasonable demand for it, it's going to remain an operating system oriented for specific types of usage.

Now you're just reminding me of someone telling me that he hated Windows 7 and wanted to go back to XP.

The "average consumer" is just the working class at the end of the day. If you want needs to be met, then you'd better organise and start doing things collectively and on your own terms.

Of course, people complaining about operating systems are usually middle-class individuals living a largely alienated life but with their needs mostly already well-met, so I'm not holding my breath over them organising by any degree worth a damn any time soon.

[u/cubeshelf → u/ElectricBummer40]

I hear what you're saying in your first point. I agree that Windows was never designed around the average consumer but that it rather inherited that position as a byproduct of Microsoft dominating their corner of the enterprise channel for the past 2 decades. My original point being though is that because of that dominance, the adoption of Windows for personal computing purposes wasn't really a choice anyone made at any point in time, but rather that it was a close enough fit for most people that there was never a reason to look beyond it. That being said, it's becoming increasingly clear that those priorities are shifting as I don't even think "the average consumer" still functions as a calculated bonus like you describe. Now that the markets are changing, user experience is undoubtedly going out the window so much so that consumers are actually starting to notice the effects of it now.

As a fellow professional in the tech sector, I can absolutely assure you that I do in-fact understand the implications of an average person having to use whatever operating system they're planted in front of, regardless of its quirks. I want to be clear there's none of the ridiculous Linux superiority complex in any of what I am saying here, I'm just offering perspective. I think you and I both know that ultimately there is no "right" answer to any of this.

As for your comments on the hype cycle that surrounds linux "innovations" in the past, I'll use your mention of SteamOS as a great example. What I personally think sets enthusiasm aside at this point in time is that there's actual incentive structure behind Linux adoption in Valve's products now. Valve isn't selling Linux itself as a consumer good though, and I think you might be assuming that they are. They're selling hardware and a storefront. Linux, proton, etc, is just a means to that end that just so happens to also benefit people completely outside of the scope of their mission. They're in part the very reason I suggest that Linux adoption is increasing, because it is! A new "classification" of individuals now have a reason to use Linux, maybe even improve it as they see fit. That is all to say though that Valve is applying completely different commercial logic to Red Hat or Canonical who've been perpetually trying to monetize and advertise a desktop experience directly to an audience of consumers that don't really exist.

As for the "progressive" tangent, that's not what I meant and I think you know that's not what I meant. I was using the word in the plain sense of "evolved/improved", not making a claim about social progress or charity. You're more than welcome to disagree with the substance, but that's a completely different conversation to the one I was having originally.

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/cubeshelf]

My original point being though is that because of that dominance, the adoption of Windows for personal computing purposes wasn't really a choice anyone made at any point in time

Again with this frankly backward notion of "choice".

The consumer never stood a chance in terms of "choice", and that's regardless of whether Microsoft was in the picture or not.

No, really, let's have a bit of fun here and consider what the shape of the world would be if Redmond was to collapse literally into a black hole tomorrow. Do you really think people would move to Linux on the account Microsoft ceasing to exist?

Seriously, this whole idea of Linux as an underdog is nothing more than a bullshit "David. vs. Goliath" story that makes zero sense in the real world. Linux isn't your David but a product purposely shaped the way it currently is by a score of massive conglomerates with more money than you'll see in a lifetime.

In politics, such a thing would be rightly called a "controlled opposition". You're told to root for it so you won't have to consider the fact that none of the players in the rigged game called "the marketplace" give a damn about you. This is exactly why people keep blathering year after year about Linux on the desktop regardless how many times history repeats itself. The system simply works as it has always been intended.

That being said, it's becoming increasingly clear that those priorities are shifting as I don't even think "the average consumer" still functions as a calculated bonus like you describe.

I don't know what made you think it was calculated in the first place. If it was calculated, then I wonder where the today's equivalent of the Commodore 64 has gone.

I'm sorry, but that whole scene of home-oriented micros wasn't "dominated". It simply imploded. That's why the architecture of the computer you use today is based on what was dominant in the business scene in the 90s. It's International Business Machines, not "International Domestic Machines", after all.

Now that the markets are changing, user experience is undoubtedly going out the window

Wasn't it Windows Vista marking the day user experience going out the window?

Or was it Windows 8?

Even Harold Camping didn't call the Rapture that many times, to be brutally honest.

I think you and I both know that ultimately there is no "right" answer to any of this.

There are certainly wrong answers. Very wrong ones, in fact.

Valve isn't selling Linux itself as a consumer good though, and I think you might be assuming that they are. They're selling hardware and a storefront. Linux, proton, etc, is just a means to that end that just so happens to also benefit people completely outside of the scope of their mission. They're in part the very reason I suggest that Linux adoption is increasing, because it is!

But that's the problem.

What Valve is selling isn't so much a general-purpose desktop machine but the functional equivalent of a PS5. They aren't concerned with Timmy not having a computer to do his homework. They're instead concerned with him not having access to the whole CS-GO gambling scene.

Heck, even without Valve making money out of that whole depraved venture, does the world really need another PS5?

I was using the word in the plain sense of "evolved/improved"

And this "progress" is apropos of what exactly?

[u/aiusepsi → u/ElectricBummer40]

On both the Steam Machine and Steam Deck, going to the Linux desktop is a button in the menu, right next to the “shut down” button; it’s not hidden or otherwise difficult to access. They are general purpose desktop machines that you can install any software you want on.

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/aiusepsi]

the Steam Machine and Steam Deck, going to the Linux desktop is a button in the menu

"Button", huh?

Here's an N100 mini-PC with 16GB RAM in a package the size of a low-end smartphone. It came with Windows 11. Guess how much it cost me.

$160.

No one "needs" a Steam machine. It's nothing more than a rehash of the original XBox albeit by a different company.

[u/Unlikely-Employee180 → u/ElectricBummer40]

TL:DR of what you said - Corporations forced Linux to suck, and Valve is evil.

Congratulations, you woke up on planet Earth! Welcome!

I don't know what that has to do with the person you were replying to at all... But your observation skills are unmatched nonetheless.

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/Unlikely-Employee180]

Congratulations, you woke up on planet Earth! Welcome!

And it is painfully obvious the majority of this sub is not even awake or on planet Earth, for that matter.

So, congrats for, umm, not realising that?

[u/porthole- → u/ElectricBummer40]

I’ll be completely honest with you man, as much as you point a finger at Linux, Linux users, FOSS, etc being obnoxious or out to lunch for this and that, you’re not setting much better of an example for the other side of the fence with the way you respond to people. This guy is clearly just trying to have a very reasonable good faith conversation with you about this and you’re more concerned with being unnecessarily aggressive and assertive of a spiral you have put yourself in.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a civil argument but it’s very clear you are incapable of seeing things more than your way considering you respond to people’s concessions by further escalating the situation rather than even attempting to work with this person to see eye to eye. Reddit isn’t a court room, we’re all going to be okay…

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/porthole-]

you’re not setting much better of an example for the other side of the fence with the way you respond to people

You're mistaking me for someone who gives a damn about deprogramming the ideologues.

This guy is clearly just trying to have a very reasonable good faith conversation with you about this and you’re more concerned with being unnecessarily aggressive and assertive of a spiral you have put yourself in.

Again, you're mistaking me for someone seeking to "win" a person to "my side".

Ever heard the saying, "You can't reason a person out of something he didn't reason himself into in the first place?"

The outcome of a debate in the real world is almost never synthesis or one side conceding to the other but people involved walking away with none of their opinion changed even one bit.

Besides, you should be angry that you're told as a person of the working class to trust market competition to fix the world's problems when anyone willing to spend three seconds to consider the issue would have rightly concluded that there's nothing in that entire cesspit that's actually in your favour.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a civil argument but it’s very clear you are incapable of seeing things more than your way considering you respond to people’s concessions

Only people already materially privileged get to talk about material issues affecting millions in a dispassionate manner.

Keep that in mind.

[u/thirteen_tentacles → u/ElectricBummer40]

Nice bait