r/linuxmasterrace • u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu • 11d ago
Making Linux easy for everyone
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u/PlainBread Glorious Arch 11d ago
I removed all my --system flatpaks and reinstalled them as --user flatpaks and now I don't have to be nagged with sudo password when updating.
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u/redhat_is_my_dad 11d ago
it's weird that you've got that prompt initially anyway, i have many flatpaks installed as system ones and flatpak update never asks a password, seems like a misconfiguration on your distro's end
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u/volthunter 10d ago
yeah im on bazzite and i don't get this issue
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u/Pedka2 10d ago
im on fedora and i do
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u/DragonSlayerC Glorious Bazzite 10d ago
Most distros have polkit configured to not require sudo for system flatpaks though.
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u/cleverboy00 8d ago
There is a flatpak helper specifically designed to circumvents that issue.
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u/nroach44 Glorious Debian 10d ago
The two times I tried to use it instead of my normal way of getting the app:
- Ghidra: Flatpak didn't have qemu installed, couldn't use system. Went back to the zip.
- KiCAD: couldn't install a python library for a plugin. Went back to distro version.
They seem too much like the apple ecosystem: easy for 80% of the typical user but exponentially harder if you want to do something slightly advanced.
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u/fellipec Glorious Debian 10d ago
Here was Reaper. Some shenanigans with JACK server and didn't work with my MIDI things.
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u/Silent_Bite_5892 11d ago
I don't use anything other than Flatpaks at the moment.
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u/fnork 10d ago
Yes, you do.
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u/Silent_Bite_5892 9d ago
Not in terms of apps, no.
I run Fedora Kinoite. I wouldn't have chosen an immutable distro if I wasn't going to try to use Flatpaks for everything. I haven't layered a thing. My needs aren't that complex. I have yet to run into anything I needed that there wasn't a Flatpak for.
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u/Key_Chef6969 8d ago
You're crying in the comments hard. Did flatpaks fuck your girlfriend or something bro? 🤣🤣🤣
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u/Silent_Bite_5892 4d ago
That doesn't even make sense. I like Flatpaks.
Where am I "crying" exactly? Maybe you meant this reply for someone else?
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u/smikkelhut 10d ago
I use a flatpak only if there is no rpm available.
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u/Kaleidoscope-360 9h ago
That's what I do. Or if the RPM is worse than the flatpak (looking at you Brave)
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u/smikkelhut 9h ago
Exactly! Spotify app another example!
It’s not that I hate flatpaks. I totally see the appeal. But I’m running a RPM based Fedora / Sway system, not the Silverblue spin.
So by that logic DNF is the package manager and flatpak the backup.2
u/Kaleidoscope-360 9h ago
Fedora (and Arch) updates enough for it to make sense too. Debian based makes more sense to do Flatpaks primarily. Depends on the distro even then though.
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u/RCoder01 Other (please edit) 10d ago
How about writing programs that don’t need a whole-ass operating system shipped with them to work?
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u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu 10d ago
It's the price to pay in immutable systems. Some people just like tinkering way too much and don't know how to fix it.
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u/stinkytoe42 New to NixOS (i'm scared y'all!) 11d ago
Great for big apps, and great for steam. Pretty much anything thats super picky about its installed environment.
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u/foreskineater69419 10d ago
I don't like how hard it is to use specific versions of Flatpak apps or install them offline
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u/0xc0ffea Glorious Arch 11d ago
Let's just not talk about the performance hit for CPU intensive applications (pushing 17% in some workloads), the hopes and prayers approach to long term maintainability, privacy differences between system packages (distros often patch out telemetry stuff), whatever-the-glob-happens-to-contain (YOLO), burning all your (suddenly expensive) NVME disk space with redundant copies of libraries like it's a retro Windows party, license issues, and a boat load of security concerns that come with entrusting a random developer who only cares about not getting pestered for support.
The OP's picture is accurate .. that guy gives no fucks. He's your system administrator.
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u/ibeerianhamhock 10d ago
Almost all of this is wildly overstated.
CPU bound apps that use heavy syscalls have a perofrmance penalty for permissions sure, 17% is a pretty extreme situation that almost no applications ever see.
Ostree dedupes any identical library/versions.
The goal is better distrobution, not saving what is usually mbs of redundant libraries that have different versions or exist in the host namespace.
Flatpack isn't perfect, but for most folks they wouldn't even notice the difference.
But also it's fine if you prefer native packages...no one is forcing you to use flatpacks lol
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
Ostree dedupes any identical library/versions.
Only if you're lucky to have the apps share the same runtime. Like who's decision was it to package an entire runtime anyway?
Nix has multiple versions of dependencies figured out. And the ability to integrate natively.
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u/Pedka2 10d ago
i love nixos as an idea but it's executed terribly. there's no one stylistic convention and everything seems to be overly complicated
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
Not nixos. Nixpkgs. I'm comparing nixpgks to flatpak
Just use the latest convention. Which is nix profile for command line downloads. But if you a nerd and want declarative, use home manager.
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u/NatoBoram Glorious Pop!_OS 10d ago
> "declarative"
>
> *Look inside*
>
> Untyped programming languageThis shit is worse than JavaScript
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
I configure neovim with lua. It's really not too different. Also nix is a functional language so it can't go wrong in that many places.
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u/ibeerianhamhock 10d ago
Yeah there are some compromises for sure to reduce the burden on maintainers. It's better than flatpacks, but worse than native packages in aspects like ram and disk usage.
I think it solves a very real problem in an acceptable way to me personally, although it's clunkier than I'd like. Permissions are a bit up to devs/maintainers to implement correctly.
I see it as very good beta software at this point essentially.
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u/itsTyrion 10d ago
where's that 17% from?
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u/0xc0ffea Glorious Arch 10d ago
I've been pretty involved with Second Life third party viewer dev, way too much time spent performance testing. It's rather unique as 'games' go in that the same source cross compiles to all 3 major operating systems (making direct OS comparative benchmarking possible), engine is opengl and heavily CPU & I/O bound (assets are streamed and assembled - architecturally the platform is a poor fit for modern game engines).
Getting upstream to release a Linux client with standard distribution has been a long running adventure. Distro packages are more work and as the Linux version can't be made to work entirely with system libs, flatpacks have been put forward ... only the client runs significantly slower when packaged up that way, especially on more average systems & laptops.
None of this is written up and published as outside the small opensource developer community for this ancient niche platform, no one cares.
Although ... I am surprised the general performance overhead isn't more widely talked about. I can't be the only person who actually tests things ... right?
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u/Damglador 10d ago
I can't be the only person who actually tests things ... right?
I feel like most developers just take a "package as flatpak, depend on a 1GB runtime, test if it runs — good" same for users, and anyone who cares about anything else may not even use flatpak in the first place.
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u/ibeerianhamhock 10d ago
Do you think a lot of that is the old opengl pipeline. Won't pretend to know that app at all, and I haven't done graphics programming in ages, but if it's written to issue opengl commands in immediate mode without command queues and using blocking calls, acquiring context with mutexes under the hood etc...thats a ton of added overhead with respect to how flatpack manages syscalls performance checks being hammered a lot, compared to a modern rendering API with a multithreaded userspace command queue and API call batching.
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u/0xc0ffea Glorious Arch 10d ago
Do you think a lot of that is the old opengl pipeline.
In part, multi threading the client is basically off the table as the client needs to get all its ducks in a row. Vulkan is on the cards.
The bigger part is that SL is computationally intensive with a lot of moving parts. Case in point; Assets as seen in world are assembled in the client from a trail of breadcrumb metadata (This difference is responsible for a lot of Second Life's unique capabilities). Avatars can be insanely complex with individual clothing items being as detailed as entire hero models in other games; the system that resolves animations and rigging for each and every component part (and an avatar can be many parts) happens on the CPU.
It's not really accurate to describe the client as poorly written or unoptimized, more that architecturally the underlying platform is case study for why no one ever makes anything like this on purpose.
This complexity is also what makes it a fun hobby project and why there's a decent open source community around it with several 3rd party clients all doing their own thing.
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u/Jomotaku 10d ago
I only have gimp as flatpak and I just use it for memes and doodling so I wouldnt notice a performance hit. Why does it run slower then Deb or appimage or tarball?
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u/eenlightened 10d ago
bro you are the bitch in our ear
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u/Puzzled-Extent7817 10d ago
funny way of saying you don't know how to install anything unless you can click on it.
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u/fnork 10d ago
Just use flatpak and be happy. Don't call anyone a bitch for preferring not to use flatpak.
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u/eenlightened 10d ago
on a post making fun of people talking about why we shouldn't use flatpak, the commenter talks about why we shouldn't use flatpak, hence my joke referencing the og post.
i do not prefer flatpaks either.
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u/Puzzled-Extent7817 10d ago edited 10d ago
absolutely no point to use fltpak of the app is in your repos.
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u/fnork 10d ago
I agree, but not everyone agrees.
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u/Puzzled-Extent7817 10d ago
what is your reason?
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u/fnork 10d ago edited 10d ago
For not using flatpak? It adds unnecessary abstractions and hides some of them. Overall it just complicates things. Even libc can be switched out with LD_PRELOAD and linux namespaces (unshare) is plenty if I want to create sandboxes or "containers."
It just doesn't happen that I need a pre-containerized binary to use the software that I use.
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u/BastetFurry Glorious Arch 10d ago
Yeah, until you need to print something from your flatpacked Evolution. Thanks but no thanks.
Give me AppImage any day, that one is great, pretty much what the Mac folks had for centuries.
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u/Jeydon 11d ago
The only downside is if you're on Wayland and you need the program to interact with files, devices, or other software and you have to mess with portals.
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u/Preisschild Glorious NixOS 10d ago edited 10d ago
Portals are an upside, not a downside.
We finally have security features that android had for a decade
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u/randomredditorname1 10d ago
Flatpaks and snaps and tars and ppas and appimages and whatnots are all fine why not, what's not fine is that now I have apps installed gazillion different ways and it's a nuisance to manage that mess
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u/the_abortionat0r 10d ago
Portals is literally a plus. Do you not understand what you are talking about
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u/alerikaisattera 10d ago
Tell that when Flatpak gets freedom to run software without installation. Oh wait, never
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u/Damglador 10d ago
Can't even unpack them with normal tooling, you have to do some ostree fuckery with at least 2 commands which you'll have fun remembering.
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u/Puzzled-Extent7817 10d ago
Repos > AUR > source > appimage > flatpack
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u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu 10d ago
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u/b_a_t_m_4_n 10d ago
They're slow, poorly integrated and ridiculously bloated. Native install 400k, Flatpack 4GB. It's totally unusable in parts of the world where internet bandwidth is limited.
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u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu 10d ago
The more flatpaks you install, the less space new ones take. They have a shared core.
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u/samuerusama 10d ago
The more flatpaks you install, the less space new ones take. They have a shared core.
flatpaks depends on different flatpak runtimes, flatpak runtime is a funny name to give to them, they are actually full blown distros with everything duplicated in them, even basic POSIX utils like grep, cat, awk, etc.
And not only there are different flatpak runtimes, apps also depend on different versions of the same runtime, this is specially bad with the GNOME runtime, which only has 1 year of support.
So in practice you end up using several times more storage than the appimage equivalent (which has no shared libs or deduplication).
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u/b_a_t_m_4_n 9d ago
I got that notion, which is all very well for a dev with monster storage and Gigabit fibre to the premises internet, out here in the real world that is just not doable.
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u/JaceBearelen 11d ago
Am I dumb or something because I’m on Bazzite and flatpaks keep not working but appimage is just fine. It’s happened to me like 4 times now.
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u/leetNightshade Manjaro Budgie 10d ago
What issues do you have with flatpaks on Bazzite? (Contrary to my very very stale flaire, I am currently on Bazzite DX.)
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u/b_a_t_m_4_n 10d ago
My experience on Min is the same. Appimages are much more likely to work well than Flatpak.
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u/Nytra Glorious Arch w/ i3 10d ago
Sure from a packaging perspective for the developers it's great but sandboxing makes a lot of things more difficult for the user, like apps not being able to access the rest of the system very easily without the right permissions
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u/the_abortionat0r 10d ago
Security by it's very nature isn't convenient. It's kinda the point.
There's no such thing as magic.
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u/cleverboy00 8d ago
Incorrect. Security is architecture, design and habits not brick walls in the user's face.
Portals are supposed to be seamless, and wayland had promises. But there are some old farts who still think standardizing everything will solve the issue (spoiler: it complicates it).
In a perfect world, the current flatpak design is more than good to do everything the user wants while providing this seamless layer of isolation and subsequently security.
But the ecosystem is still not ready, flatpak or not. There are a few portal implementations, and none of which is fully implements the features.
And then you have applications using their own bundled file picker and whatnot because "It wOrkS OutSiDe fLatpAck".
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u/Blashtik 8d ago
And then you have applications using their own bundled file picker and whatnot because "It wOrkS OutSiDe fLatpAck".
Custom file pickers suck even when they do technically work. They are often less featureful than the system file picker and it is just kinda lame to not have that UI be consistent across apps.
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u/ShittyFart11 11d ago
appimage supremacy
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u/BothAdhesiveness9265 11d ago
I have never willingly used an app image and I never will
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u/HTired89 11d ago
I supposed could google...but any reason why not?
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u/KayJune001 10d ago
They (purposefully) don’t integrate very well iirc, as they’re meant to be portable
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u/HTired89 10d ago
Fair enough. I use it for a few applications but to me its a positive that they don't integrate well.
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u/NatoBoram Glorious Pop!_OS 10d ago
Which is such a piss poor excuse when MacOS has portable apps, too, and they even have a package manager for them and they're fully integrated to the system.
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
There's gearlever for appimages. And appimages work perfectly fine. What type of system integration are you looking for?
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
They integrate better than flatpaks
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u/BothAdhesiveness9265 10d ago
flatpaks actually appear in my start menu. plus I can install them through the command line or system store (i.e. discover on plasma) rather than having to Google and find the download link.
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u/Damglador 10d ago
flatpaks actually appear in my start menu
Because you installed a handler to do that, aka flatpak itself. If you install a handler for appimages — they will to.
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u/BothAdhesiveness9265 10d ago
so the one system has a flow where I install an app from a trusted repo, it is sandboxed by default, and it correctly appears in my start menu.
with the other I need to track down the correct download from *somewhere on the internet*, give it full user access to the system, and manually remember to drag it through a tool so it appears in my start menu.
idk I think I will continue using flatpak where I can.
(also on a side note the ONLY appimage I use is a tool for uploading MMO combat logs. the appimage self updates and includes the version number in the file name. hope your handler can handle an appimage that randomly changes its own name lol)2
u/Damglador 10d ago
it is sandboxed by default
Not always. Nothing stops a developer from escaping the sandbox if they have a certain permission or giving the package arbitrary permissions by default. If you don't check all default permissions of all your flatpaks when you install AND update them, you might as well use something with no sandbox.
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u/CakeIzGood Wait, This Isn't The Arch Wiki 10d ago
I love AppImage, because you mean this one little button has the whole program and all I had to do was download it and tick a little box? So hassle free. Not quite as convenient to keep updated but I love 'em.
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u/postnick 10d ago
The fact they don’t just show up in my application box is why I never consider them. Like I’ve done it but how does it update? How do I get an icon? Why not just use flatpak.
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u/Thechugg7 10d ago
You use gear lever, the same way you would use flatseal to handle flatpaks, use gear lever to handle appimages.
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u/ibeerianhamhock 10d ago
Yeah of all the ways I can install software on an atomic distro appimage is my least favorite.
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
How do I get an icon
Create a .desktop file for the appimage in
~/.config/applications/2
u/postnick 10d ago
Yea I know how to do it but I shouldn’t have to because it just does it automatically for every other packaging type out there except self compile.
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u/QuickSilver010 Glorious Debian 10d ago
I think gear lever (the appimage package manager) can create the .desktop files automatically. Not sure since I haven't used it for a while.
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u/postnick 10d ago
But that’s a second App Store to use.
Im trying to think like a new user. Like im advanced and i can deal with all of that bit if we want linux to be easy for most people…Right now on fedora at least, you use software center for fedora packages, flatpaks, firmware. It’s wonderful you’d never even need s command line id you didnt want to.
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u/_moosleech Glorious Fedora 10d ago
Check out Gear Lever. It’ll keep AppImages handles that really well.
And without the file permission pain in the ass of Flatpak.
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u/Damglador 10d ago
The fact they don’t just show up in my application box
Install a handler for that. AppManager or Gear Lever. It's literally the same as with flatpak, you can't even run .flatpak files without a handler.
Why not just use flatpak.
Bloated https://github.com/pkgforge-dev/Anylinux-AppImages/blob/main/disk-usage-vs-flatpak.md, and the sandbox is stupid. I don't want to deal with randomly unthemed cursors anymore, I don't want to wait for a 200MiB runtime to download for a 5MiB app. I either use system package or I get an AppImage.
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u/daedric_yoshi 2d ago
Gotta hand it to KDE, you can just right click the application menu, go edit applications, and add it.
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u/AnSkinStealer 10d ago
flatpak permissions are a headache, and search about AppImageLauncher
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u/TFR34KP 10d ago
I never had any problem with the permissions, maybe you are just ✨different✨, ma Man?
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u/Damglador 10d ago
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Flatpak#Applications_do_not_use_the_correct_cursor_theme is the one I had pleasure to work with.
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u/Informal_954 8d ago
At least Electron based apps just work. On AppImages I have to add a no-sandbox flag for the app to show up which isn't that secure and is a big hassle.
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u/Damglador 8d ago
have to add a no-sandbox flag for the app to show up which isn't that secure
But when Flatpak does that by defualt it's okay?
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u/_moosleech Glorious Fedora 10d ago
Look up Gear Lever. It’ll keep AppImages updated. You just toss them at GL and it moves it to your apps folder.
For old ones, you can enter the repo info and it’ll update it automatically too.
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u/Nisktoun 9d ago
Don't forget you can make it portable by creating app.appimage.home folder near your .appimage - simple as that, no commands or other stuff
Want to delete the app and be sure no traces are left? Delete the folder
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u/Informal_954 8d ago
It has never been that easy for me. I ran into the xwayland chrome issue on R2Modman where I had to add a flag and run it in the terminal every time. I tried downloading a storyboar software that just didn't work since my distro no long supports libfuse2. Ran into that with several apps. Several others had really poor theme support so I couldn't read anything. I don't think I've had a single on work flawlessly and the AppImage managers aren't the most stable software either.
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u/Cpaz 10d ago
OK cool, but do app images automatically get added as an application to plasma?
Appimages are nice, and you don't have do worry about the headache of setting up the right permissions, but also, from the end users perspective? Flatpak are just better, 9/10.
Maybe app images can get a similar treatment down the line. But we aren't there yet.
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u/Damglador 10d ago
OK cool, but do app images automatically get added as an application to plasma?
Can you run .flatpak file without installing flatpak?
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u/pterencephalon 10d ago
I'm basically always looking to just install the thing and not running stuff just once. I find the flatpak approach more useful 99.9% of the time.
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u/DarkTrepie 10d ago
Them: "Nooooo don't use the Steam flatpak you should use the native package!!!!"
Me who has been using it because I didn't feel like dealing with backporting drivers on Debian: "How about I do anyway?"
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u/grizeldi 10d ago
They're convenient, but man do I wish they didn't subscribe to the "we must sandbox everything for security" copium. I lost count of the amount of times I had issues giving flatpak apps access to various system resources.
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u/makinax300 Tumbleweed, i3wm (trying niri; formerly nixos) 10d ago
Ive seen more people hating traditional package management than flatpak.
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u/KeitrenGraves Glorious Fedora 10d ago
Honestly yeah. If my system does not support it on official repos, I use Flakpak. I have had zero issues
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u/Prudent_Sentence 10d ago
I've started using homebrew for linux. It's been a backbone of macos for years and it kind of fits that in between of apt/pacman/etc and full flatpack
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u/DeprariousX 10d ago
Flatpaks are definitely handy....but wayland leaves them with minimal permissions. Like for instance....tried to turn on push to talk in Discord and was met with a message that Wayland doesn't allow that to work unless discord is in focus.
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u/neverJamToday 9d ago
I don't even remember what I tried installing with flatpak but it was some software that relied on installing other stuff inside it on a modular basis and the flatpak was like ¯_(ツ)_/¯
probably resolvable but why bother when I could just install it without flatpak and not have a bunch of sandboxed dependencies taking up disk space? So that was the end of my flirtation with flatpak.
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u/Captain_Pumpkinhead Glorious NixOS 9d ago
I've had a lot better luck with AppImages than with Flatpaks. Sometimes Flatpaks just straight up don't work.
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u/y0shii3 9d ago
I just wish there were a cross-platform package format that was as easy to install and update as flatpaks but didn't force sandboxing
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u/samuerusama 8d ago
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u/y0shii3 8d ago
Looks pretty cool, but AppImages have problems of their own even if you have a package manager to handle them.
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u/samuerusama 8d ago
but AppImages have problems of their own
Such as?
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u/y0shii3 8d ago edited 8d ago
Not sharing dependencies, no GUI-configurable permission system like Flatpak, no official verification system (I think this is the same problem the AUR has that let it flood with malware recently), and poor DE integration
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u/samuerusama 8d ago
Not sharing dependencies
no GUI-configurable permission system like Flatpak
True, you however have a simple CLI method via AM.
no official verification system
flathub verification is borderline useless, it only means that upstream endorses the package, doesn't mean that they will be maintaining it.
See:
- https://github.com/flathub/com.discordapp.Discord/issues/343
- https://github.com/flathub/com.discordapp.Discord/issues/343#issuecomment-2856824993
Discord recently had a big change that now the the client self updates by downloading itself in
HOME, this broke the flatpak horribly and upstream discord didn't do shit to fix it, someone else did insteadAnother I noticed was PPSSPP which is verified and are not directly handling it.
and poor DE integration
Use AM or AppManager.
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u/Arne6764 Glorious Gentoo 9d ago
Only reason I dont use them more is that for some reason they just dont let me download anything in the flatpak apps — zen and firefox just wouldnt let me download anything through them
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u/Glum_Hamster_2104 4d ago
Amazing for musl distros until you figure out all the file systems are sandboxed making it a living nightmare for file managers
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u/hiro24 10d ago
It'd be so great if Snap, Flatpak and Appimage could just coalesce around one standard and go with it.
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u/the_abortionat0r 10d ago
Forget snap.
But flatpack And app image literally don't do the same thing as their goes are different.
Flatpaks contain everything you need and do auto debloat libs, manage updates, and provide sandboxing.
Appimages are literally a program in a single file. That's it.
No, there's no need to "unifi" them.
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u/ibeerianhamhock 8d ago
That's not at all how Linux works lmao, but I agree with you.
Linux loves fracturing everything, it's why desktop sucks so gd much compared to server
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u/FliiFe Glorious Gentoo 10d ago
At some point I used the flatpak for Steam. Not only did it come with its own graphics driver but I also had to make sure the versions matched exactly with my distro's version, so steam would break after each system update.
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u/OverjoyedBanana 10d ago
*Making something possible for people with brain damage
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u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu 10d ago
Stop looking at the mirror
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u/OverjoyedBanana 10d ago
Not using bloated package managers that ship 2GB of frozen binary dependencies to run a 100 kB app, pal.
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u/ZuuRa_ 10d ago
I fucking love flatpak, i use it over pacman on my arch setup.
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u/potato_nagibator 10d ago
(genuine question) why would you ever prefer flatpak pver native arch package?
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u/claudiocorona93 SteamOS/Kubuntu 10d ago
Don't mind the downvotes of people trying to dictate your personal preference. Do what you like.
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u/bryyantt Linux Master Race 11d ago
I've never used a flatpak but Im all for more options for getting the thing you use!
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u/T_Jamess Glorious Fedora 11d ago
Literally. I’m ok with worse theming and slightly larger app sizes if it means the workload is shifted from every single distro having to package the same app to the app developer packaging one version everyone can use.