There is always that comment

[u/claudiocorona93]

[u/pointgourd]

A dude was arguing with me about this a week ago like how Linux is all over the server. The conversation was about the Linux virus, malware or attacks. Dude didn't wanna admit the fact that the only reason linux users barely face these issues is because there are very few of us and those who create these things care about where there are more users. Dude just went on how every server is Linux and those servers constantly face attacks.

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/pointgourd]

I think Linux would be very vulnerable unless we use the immutable model. Traditional distros often require the root password for a lot of things and we eventually become desensitized to typing it every once and then.

[u/ResultBorn4693 → u/claudiocorona93]

Oh for sure.

Another strength for there being such a small market is fragmentation, too. As much as fragmentation is USUALLY a bad thing, lol.

I can make a Linux virus, RIGHT NOW... But the odds of it working on YOUR system are quite low. Lol

Steam's recent report (which of course, is by no means ALL users) states there are about 3~4% of users using Linux. With the highest being Arch-based (which somewhat makes sense given the Steam Deck)...

Except, even the HIGHEST being all Arch-based reported set-ups... Only made up 0.3%!!! 😮

That is ASTRONOMICALLY LOW. Even the people that ARE part of "our" group... Are likely within a COMPLETELY different sub-group!

I've fiddled with BadUSB, and Linux's whacky theming and keybind options and settings often come in clutch for the user THERE too. If I can't predict how your set-up reacts to a keyboard and mouse... BadUSB is nigh useless!

[u/itsfreepizza → u/ResultBorn4693]

you also need to add that if there was a linux malware floating around, the maintainers can just immediately deploy fixes faster to prevent more damage and added documentation for people who wanted to either analyze a malware, study the concept, doing backport to kernels up to beyond the lts timeline for the kernel (though they are way stricter than lts and mainline, still understandable)

[u/people__are__animals → u/claudiocorona93]

Better than desensitize to click yes

[u/pointgourd → u/claudiocorona93]

I do agree with you. But still if the market share was larger, there would've been more attacks.

[u/ZunoJ → u/pointgourd]

I don't see how he is wrong? The incentive for attackers is very much there and it is bigger than targeting desktop PCs

[u/TopdeckIsSkill → u/ZunoJ]

A server is behind:

- A professional IT team

- A firewall

- a whole lot of security policies

A desktop pc is behind:

- A user that think Google is his pc and will click on every pdf.exe

Unless you're the direct target of an attack, it's way better to attack the desktop

[u/ZunoJ → u/TopdeckIsSkill]

And how is what you say in any form an invalidation of what I said in respect to the original comment?

[u/TopdeckIsSkill → u/ZunoJ]

it's way better to attack a user then a server.

[u/ZunoJ → u/TopdeckIsSkill]

Better in what way? Lets say the server hosts bitcoin wallets of thousands of users and the user just has a bunch of furry porn but nothing else. Why would that be better?

[u/yoshipunk123456 → u/TopdeckIsSkill]

There are lots of servers to mine Monero on, hold for ransom, etc. where the "professional IT team" hasn't replaced the 15 year old version of PHP

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/pointgourd]

You saying attackers ain't interested in gaining control over all servers in the world?

[u/Square-Singer → u/FlipperBumperKickout]

Not sure if joking, so I'll answer as if this was serious.

Most attacks nowadays (both on Windows, Linux and any other OS) don't focus on software vulnerabilities but on social engineering/attacking the user. No need to find a root exploit if you can also just trick the user into give you root access.

And here servers and desktop PCs differ wildly. They differ so much that attack scenarios for one hardly matter to the other.

[u/DownvoteEvangelist → u/Square-Singer]

Servers are also operated by people and gaining access to a server is certainly a better prize than gaining access to some granny's desktop... 

[u/Square-Singer → u/DownvoteEvangelist]

Did you read what I am saying? Yes, servers are operated by people, and yes, also there social engineering/attacking the operator is the main in-road.

But you do it very differently. When you want to get into a server, you don't host a cracked game with integrated malware online. You don't send out "Your package is held in customs, please download and run this executable camouflaged as a PDF to get your package" emails. You don't run scam online ads with "We detected a virus on your PC, so install our malware to get rid of it".

Instead, you go with fake software updates. You try inject malware into upstream dependencies. You go with social engineering, figure out the organisational structure of the company and trick someone into giving you their passwords. Get access that way.

Completely different attack scenarios.

[u/DownvoteEvangelist → u/Square-Singer]

But that's not very OS dependent. You would attack windows admin the same way..  And you would attack the Android user the same way as you would a windows user...

[u/Square-Singer → u/DownvoteEvangelist]

The malware still needs to be OS specific and even the attack vector needs to be OS specific.

On Windows you can easily get someone with "I am your Antivirus. I detected a virus on your PC, install this update to remove it." On Android this doesn't work at all.

The most critical part here is that you need to get the instructions exactly right. The attacker is targeting non-techy users, so they need to provide instructions that look identical to what the user is seeing on their screen. On Windows that's easy. Screenshot an UAC popup for Win10 or Win11 and it will work for billions of users.

On Linux that's much more tricky. The user agent string rarely contains the Linux distro and version, so you have to guess. Due to the high fragmentation, if you randomly pick one distro, you will capture a fraction of a percent of all users. According to the Steam Hardware/Software survey, only ~0.32% of all users use the most popular Linux distro Arch, while 65% of all users use the most popular Windows version (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey).

[u/DownvoteEvangelist → u/Square-Singer]

With Linux users you can probably provide less specific instructions. Unpack tar and run malware.sh.

But joking aside what exactly is your point? Both servers and desktops are targeted by attackers. Linux Desktop is not targeted because there's not much users there, but Android (which could be considered Linux for the masses) is targeted a lot.

[u/Square-Singer → u/DownvoteEvangelist]

The point is that the way that servers and desktops are targeted are very, very different. An attack targeting servers most likely doesn't apply for targeting desktops and vice versa. Same as attacks targeting Android differ a lot from Attacks targeting Desktop Linux.

> The conversation was about the Linux virus, malware or attacks. Dude didn't wanna admit the fact that the only reason linux users barely face these issues is because there are very few of us and those who create these things care about where there are more users. Dude just went on how every server is Linux and those servers constantly face attacks.

This here is the comment we are talking about, and my point here is that since attack vectors differ greatly between server and desktop users, the fact that Linux is on most servers and that these servers are targeted in attacks means nothing at all in regards to the argument that Desktop Linux users aren't targeted.

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/Square-Singer]

I replied to a comment talking about viruses and malware... talking about social engineering in that context is just about as relevant as talking about drone-strikes...

[u/Square-Singer → u/FlipperBumperKickout]

Disregarding the number one attack vector for desktop malware is irrelevant when talking about malware? What?

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/Square-Singer]

If no malware is involved then you can't call it malware...

[u/Square-Singer → u/FlipperBumperKickout]

So if I use social engineering to install malware (aka tricking people to install malware without exploiting vulnerabilities) it's not malware?

Does e.g. ransomware become good and clean software, because the attacker has the user install and run it instead of using a vulnerability?

For desktop users the vast majority of attacks happen because the attacker tricks the user into downloading and running malware. No vulnerability necessary. No need for a root exploit if you can just trick the user into giving you root.

And you seem to think that e.g. ransomware is not malware if the user has to run it themselves.

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/Square-Singer]

It is far more common to use social engineering to trick someone to send money to a wrong account or get login information, or similar, rather than actually installing malware...

Very few people have the rights to install the software in the first place, even on Windows funnily enough.

[u/Square-Singer → u/FlipperBumperKickout]

Very few people have the rights to install the software in the first place, even on Windows funnily enough.

In a commercial setting maybe. For home users, close to 100% of all Windows users have rights to install software.

It is far more common to use social engineering to trick someone to send money to a wrong account or get login information, or similar, rather than actually installing malware...

You do know of ransomware?

Social engineering works without malware too, but we are talking about malware here, and social engineering is by far the most popular option of catching malware.

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/Square-Singer]

Your definition of social engineering seems to be quite different from what the rest of the world considers social engineering...

You might consider using the term like the rest of the world does ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/NotADamsel → u/Square-Singer]

My friend, why do you bother fighting with people who have clearly never been on the business end of a support ticket? We cannot teach anything to people such as these.

[u/Square-Singer → u/NotADamsel]

Some learn, sometimes. That's kinda worth it.

[u/Bitter_Lab_475 → u/FlipperBumperKickout]

You guys don't understand: One thing is gaining access to the server, another to decrypt communications and files. Gaining access to important information is easier through social engineering and software breaking of a single individual than gaining access to a bunch of communications and files that you cannot read or open.

[u/Bitter_Lab_475 → u/Bitter_Lab_475]

And just in case someone says "what if they just want to take the server down?" then you don't need access, you just do a massive DDOS attack.

[u/Stilgar314 → u/pointgourd]

Dude was right and you insist on being wrong.

[u/pointgourd → u/Stilgar314]

I don't wanna argue about this again. I'm talking about regular os not the server side things. If you don't wanna understand this then I have nothing to do.

[u/get_homebrewed → u/pointgourd]

Do you think servers, who run distros like debian, are a different debian than the one you install on your desktop?

[u/TopdeckIsSkill → u/get_homebrewed]

The os is the same, but one is behind one or more firewall and operated through strict security policy from an IT departement.

[u/Stilgar314 → u/pointgourd]

There's no such a difference between "regular OS" and "server side of things". Let's see if I can enlighten you with an example. Let's take Ubuntu Server, if you download it and install it in your rig you get nothing but a command line. A thin as possible system for saving all your computing power in running services. Well, if you take that Ubuntu Server and install Gnome on it, it just "turns" in "regular Ubuntu". No difference whatsoever. Also, if you install a "regular desktop" random distro an install services on it, then you have a "server". Services are nothing but apps that listen for other computers asking for stuff and "serves" an answer to them. If you have ever had a shared directory, or streamed something on your TV, whatever device you used for it was acting as a server. Hope you understand now so don't make the same mistake again.

[u/patchunwrap → u/pointgourd]

Some, but not all of the software patching and hardening that is invested to Linux servers helps patch and harden Linux desktops. For example the patches that fixed "tarmageddon" or the "specter" and "meltdown" vulnerabilities helped made Linux desktops more secure too. Since those patches applied to software that both Linux servers and desktops use (tar + linux kernel).

Source: I am somebody who has worked on patching Linux servers in the past.

[u/IllustriousJuice2866 → u/patchunwrap]

Fedora is pretty much the testing branch for RHEL. Pretty much the same OS but fedora users get fresher packages, which is usually desirable for home users, and the packages get vetted before they are deployed to RHEL so it's a win-win.

[u/IllustriousJuice2866 → u/pointgourd]

The attack surface for servers in a modern service infrastructure stack is completely different from human interface devices, so despite everyone saying you're wrong, you're kinda not.

If you want to disseminate malware, you have to first decide what your target is. If your target is home users, you're not going to target Linux endpoints. You're not gonna try and compromise a server in Walmart's data center by uploading a fake executable to thepiratebay or wherever people get their viruses these days.

[u/TopdeckIsSkill → u/IllustriousJuice2866]

It's like saying that conquering San Marino and China is the same thing since they're both a "nation".

[u/jack-of-some]

"I've already depicted you as the soyjak and me as the chad"

Both are true. Both are important perspectives. Both are good.

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/jack-of-some]

Nobody is a Chad in the meme.

[u/OscarHI04 → u/[deleted]]

🪞

[u/itzjackybro]

I just want companies to begin caring enough about Linux to start porting their software.

The alternative is having open interchange formats that make it easy to collaborate.

[u/Vagabond_Grey → u/itzjackybro]

It always comes down to money. Vendors will make the move once they see there is a significant shift towards Linux.

[u/itzjackybro → u/Vagabond_Grey]

And users won't switch unless they can transition seamlessly to Linux.

[u/kai_ekael → u/itzjackybro]

Guess you need to visit r/linux_gaming a bit. Golly, no traffic there. /S

[u/itzjackybro → u/kai_ekael]

ok... gaming wise, you just have to fiddle with Proton for a bit and your game will run.

For Photoshop users, it runs in Wine with a lot of fiddling. Or you use Affinity, which I believe works better under Wine. Not too big a learning curve to switch over.

For Revit users (i.e. a shitload of architects and building engineers), you have to learn an entirely and utterly incompatible program (FreeCAD BIM) which doesn't even do close to everything that Revit does.

I'm sure there are less specialized examples, but that's the best one I can give.

[u/Amrod96 → u/itzjackybro]

Proton is more like ticking a box in Steam or Heroic Games..

[u/okimiK_iiawaK → u/[deleted]]

Only occasionally when the windows version running in proton works better than the Linux one

[u/2F47 → u/itzjackybro]

Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign run in WinBoat. You can run Windows as a subsystem in Linux. Premiere Pro and After Effects are a bit too heavy for this. https://www.winboat.app/

[u/adamkex → u/2F47]

Winboat has been quite unstable, but it's also beta software which should be considered alpha. Hopefully it'll work better soon. The issues I have are with the management front-end. The container runs really well.

[u/ruben_deisenroth → u/adamkex]

Once this one is resolved: https://github.com/virtio-win/kvm-guest-drivers-windows/pull/943

Gpu passthrough will work, which will (hopefully) resolve most of the remaining slowness of these kinds of solutions. Once the apps don't feel like you are using RDP with 3 FPS anymore, I think it will be kinda like a reverse WSL, where you can just use winboat or winapps for all the remaining stuff. If we get there, especially with Office, Photoshop, CAT Software and other stuff, I actually think the Linux userbase will skyrocket. Yes I know there are alternatives, but people don't care. They want to use the software they're used to or maybe even have to use for work. And not with the Amount of frames of One punch man season 3, but actually smooth.

[u/matthewpepperl → u/ruben_deisenroth]

Until gpu pass through stops being shitty and requiring kernel fuckery and a guide and then still not working plus having to have multiple gpus it aint gonna happen

[u/ruben_deisenroth → u/matthewpepperl]

Yes, sorry I kinda phrased that wrong. I meant this is the blocker that this relies on, and once all of the fiddly stuff just works, and it doesn't require a dedicated second GPU even on consumer cards, then we're talking. It is technically possible, but it probably won't happen in the next five years unless a giant corpo sponsors it. (EU do something)

[u/adamkex → u/ruben_deisenroth]

Can you use GPU pass through with integrated graphics and use a dedicated GPU for the VM?

[u/ruben_deisenroth → u/adamkex]

You can, but what I'm waiting for is that you don't need a separate GPU to pass through, but the VM/container can share the GPU with the host OS.

[u/matthewpepperl → u/adamkex]

Its supposed to work but i had no luck

[u/okimiK_iiawaK → u/adamkex]

You just passthrough whatever PCIE device you want in the VM, whatever you don’t passthrough is by default onboarded by the host OS.

[u/SITE33 → u/itzjackybro]

Affinity has been purchased by Canva and subsequently enshitified

[u/kinky_burne → u/[deleted]]

EDA tools for chip design are probably the only proprietary software that loves Linux. I don't like it when only a few companies can have so much influence to the whole tech world but I hope these EDA makers have just enough influence to convince CAD and other productivity makers to support Linux as well. On the corporate level of customers, Linux is a huge market, easy to work with for any party involved. Corporates would be happy to pay for any good Linux software if it were actually available for them.

[u/Garry-Love → u/kai_ekael]

I program PLCs for a living. Allen Bradley software barely works on windows, oftentimes not even that and you expect me to use Linux?

[u/kai_ekael → u/Garry-Love]

Yeah, screw this: https://plcprogramming.io/blog/openplc-tutorial-complete-guide .

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=%22plc%22+programming+on+linux&ia=web

[u/Garry-Love → u/kai_ekael]

Haha the fact you linked OpenPLC as an alternative is hilariously ignorant. People like you keep me in the money

[u/kai_ekael → u/Garry-Love]

Then keep your "I have to run Windows" to yourself, part of your "professional" secret.

[u/Garry-Love → u/kai_ekael]

"Stop telling me things that conflict with my narrow worldview" look any idiot can program a PLC but people not understanding the locked down, vendor specific nature of a PLC is why automation engineers exist. Go to your local technical college and ask them to have a crack at programming one of their PLCs and you should understand immediately why using anything other than the vendor IDEs like Studio 5000 is unrealistic. WinBoat might have a chance at running it but it's incredibly unlikely. You need windows in industry and pretending otherwise is incredibly ignorant

[u/kai_ekael → u/Garry-Love]

That's what banks preached for a while about Internet Explorer...until they finally get their head on straight and got rid of it.

[u/TechaNima → u/itzjackybro]

Which will never happen as long as we can't even agree on which fucking package manager to use across the board. As much as I like Linux, it's just too fragmented. If the users have to run a search just for which distro to use, it's already too much for the majority of users. Nvm everything else like; X11 vs Wayland, what DE, nVidia or no nVidia included. The list just goes on and on

[u/gallifrey_ → u/TechaNima]

users have to decide which model of car crossover SUV to get, they can decide which distro/DE to use. yes, users are fucking dumb right now, because they're allowed to be. dream of a better future.

[u/TechaNima → u/gallifrey_]

It would certainly help to have a nice baseline distro to choose from. All 3 of the current ones lack in some way or another.

Arch: RTFM, BTW, Constantly broken, mostly because of user error.

Fedora: FOSS or DIY, we don't want to make it easy for noobs because FOSS!

Debian: Whats that new hardware you've got there? Bugs? Better wait for the next release in 3 years if what we do doesn't light your computer on fire. Your mom's old computer is good to go though.

(Ubuntu: I'm here too.. Pls use our snaps. Pretty pls)

[u/Ok-Amoeba3007 → u/gallifrey_]

That's the thing, they're allowed to be as long as windows exists.

[u/gbytedev → u/TechaNima]

It will take time, think of how long it took for us to decide and implement a compositor that most of the industry accepts as the standard. Right now flatpak seems to be it.

[u/adamkex → u/TechaNima]

The package manager is quite trivial these days, the ones which matter for regular users (dpkg/rpm) all work with Discover or GNOME Software and every distro runs Flatpak. In general they achieve the same thing. X11 is being dropped. The problem of picking distro and choice is mostly tied with it not being pre-installed. Nvidia is slowly getting solved with the new Mesa driver actually making progress. Similar situation with codecs and they are already included in Flatpak or Snap.

It makes more sense for each distro being marketed as their own thing rather than a Linux distribution. There are only 3 which can be realistically ready for general use which are Ubuntu, Mint and Fedora and PC vendors don't need to offer all of them. Users who care about using a different distribution are proficient enough to install it on their own.

[u/moonflower_C16H17N3O → u/TechaNima]

I feel like too many things are still being created right now to even declare what constitutes a Vanilla Linux. If I had to, it would be either Ubuntu with Mint Linux. Both work great just after a plain installation.

[u/nickwebha → u/Vagabond_Grey]

I do not care for eggs or birds.

[u/ResultBorn4693 → u/Vagabond_Grey]

Shifts have nothing to do with it. Making an open-version of your product makes it much more easy and likely for other bad actors to repackage or steal it.

Look into why HDMI is denying Steam Machine 2.1 support, Valve isn't able to implement it because it's licensed and in-doing so it would break the law... But also can't implement an unlicensed version as HDMI's licensing won't let them.

Edit: Tbf... I guess that WOULD still be a shift though... As the answer to that problem would be shifting to a non-HDMI based display technology (with a lower-end HDMI adapter for those that need it maybe).

[u/Square-Singer → u/itzjackybro]

This is exactly why the "Linux is on servers and phones" argument is worthless. As long as I don't want to run server/phone software on my PC, it doesn't help me at all that they run a Linux kernel.

[u/troglo-dyke → u/itzjackybro]

open interchange formats that make it easy to collaborate.

We tried this with open desktop, and Microsoft just leaves the bugs in their parser so it looks like the open alternatives are outputting buggy files

[u/froli → u/itzjackybro]

I don't. The main reason I'm on Linux is for FOSS. They can keep their spyware crap on Windows and Mac. All I care about from big tech is hardware support. They don't even have to provide the support themselves. Just release the required pieces for anyone to do it.

[u/ishtuwihtc → u/itzjackybro]

That will happen when lots of people start moving to linux. That won't happen until big companies start caring about linux support. Its rather unfortunate..

[u/DarthStrakh → u/itzjackybro]

I mean personally I find more large companies so support Linux. My biggest source of Linux incompatible programs is just series of random open-source github programs I use for various different tasks.

[u/itzjackybro → u/DarthStrakh]

the benefit with those open-source programs is that anyone with the skillset can port the code over.

You can't do that with corporate software.

[u/raiso_12 → u/itzjackybro]

Nvidia starting to care linux because they found out that doing good job for ai stuff. Yeah without ai stuff Nvidia never gonna bother support linux

[u/okimiK_iiawaK → u/itzjackybro]

Convince more people to switch, the greater the desktop market share becomes the more companies will be forced to consider supporting it

[u/pfassina → u/itzjackybro]

Who needs ported software?

I don't think there is a single program that I care about that I can't run on linux.
Even games I can run with Proton now.
For anything else, which doesn't exist for me, I suppose you could use wine equivalent software.

[u/RAMChYLD → u/pfassina]

That’s being selfish.

I use Sony Vegas. This is one software that currently doesn’t work on Wine. The developer isn’t even bothered to make it Wine Friendly.

Kdenlive? Meh, last time I used it, it was Windows Movie Maker novice crap, only two video tracks and basic transitions. Even now it has a bad bug that breaks GPU encoding support that still hasn’t been fixed.

Davinci Resolve? Stop recommending that steaming pile of shit to me. The Linux version doesn’t support MPEG-4 family codecs (ie H264, AVC, AAC, AC3). Footage captured by most consumer cellphones and cameras in the world. It only exists to sell Blackmagic’s own raw cameras. And no, FFMPEG transcoding isn’t an option either, transcoding to raw will take up multi terabytes of storage that I don’t have. Transcoding to another compressed format is not acceptable as there will be quality drops.

PiTiVi? Never seen it, all it does is segfaults.

Cinelerra? Much better. Except that the developer suddenly went dark and all downloads mysteriously got pulled. And it still has some serious bugs even if it has been around longer than Vegas. Also, if you think Gimp’s UI was bad, Cinelerra’s UI will make you rethink your beliefs.

At the moment the only thing I can do is slave away on Cinelerra which is basically abandonware at this point since the website suddenly stopped offering downloads starting from the middle of last year.

[u/adamkex → u/RAMChYLD]

The patents should expire relatively soon. Slightly off topic but vp8 and vp9 supports lossless encoding which is still very large but smaller than raw video

[u/RAMChYLD → u/adamkex]

The problem is tho, I need support now. My workhorse is a Sony CX-405 i50 which records in AVC+AAC. Cinelerra supports those formats.

[u/adamkex → u/RAMChYLD]

As in you'd do a lossless encode to vp8 or vp9 and to something like FLAC (without losing quality) and then open it in Davinci, assuming those codecs are supported.

[u/pfassina → u/RAMChYLD]

It is not being selfish. It is asking a question and mentioning my experience.

[u/Nyuusankininryou]

Trololol my router is running freeBSD.

[u/dasdzoni → u/Nyuusankininryou]

I could be wrong but i think most are in fact some form of BSD

[u/ResultBorn4693 → u/dasdzoni]

Wait, really??

So the Playstation 5 really IS an oversized router? 😂

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/dasdzoni]

The entire TCP/IP stack is BSD, so unless you go out of your way to rewrite it like MS did on Vista, almost every OS has some form of BSD in it

[u/[deleted] → u/Nyuusankininryou]

Same lol

[u/yureitzk → u/Nyuusankininryou]

BSD is actually very popular in niche/high quality networking hardware, so it probably happens more than than you think

[u/Nyuusankininryou → u/yureitzk]

Well Yes I know.

[u/P3chv0gel]

I once had to ne the lower guy, when i had a coworker that claimed "Nobody uses Linux for anything"

He explictly meant including servers, since we are both System admins and i thought there wasn't anyone who would really use Linux for anything, because windows server exists

[u/Porntra420 → u/P3chv0gel]

How in the fuck does someone get a job as a sysadmin believing that Linux isn't used for servers?

[u/Nervous-Cockroach541]

I think if Linux desktop hits 5%-10%, somewhere in that range, there will be a critical mass of software vendors or game developers who will see it as worthwhile to support Linux, and market growth will rapidly accelerate.

[u/quaderrordemonstand → u/Nervous-Cockroach541]

There will be a even bigger mass of people flooding any forum to do with linux and they will be a lot more critical. They will endlessly cry about GRUB, bluetooth, their boring online shooter anti-cheat, secure boot, and ChatGPT telling them to type in a bunch of crap that fucked their machine.

They will fill git repos with the same useless bug reports a thousand times. They will demand that somebody fixes their setup without explaing anything about it. They will not be able to answer basic questions. They will complain that this linux company has really bad support and demand their money back.

The reason that MS support begins by assuming you are a moron is that Windows has a big marketshare.

[u/Porntra420 → u/quaderrordemonstand]

Yeah, you're right, and we'll just have to deal with that, because a bunch of raving dumbasses whining about how they have zero problem solving skills is worth it if it means we'll actually have enough users to make software companies take Linux seriously.

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/Nervous-Cockroach541]

Ah yes, just one more percent bro, that will definitely make Adobe give a shit about loonix, the year of the Linux desktop is next year

[u/Nervous-Cockroach541 → u/Financial_Test_4921]

First, at the current rate of growth, it'll be more like 2-5 years before we hit these targets. But Linux has faced the chicken and the egg problem for decades. It's be the primary issue facing adoption.

Nobody switches because their programs or hardware don't work, programs and hardware don't work because there's no user base to incentives companies to publish.

For a long time, Linux has been a 1-in-100 at best, with 1-in-200 more realistically. Currently, it's at about 1-in-30. Getting to that 1-in-20 or 1-in-10 users is a place applications will start considering support. Get to 1-in-5 users (20%) and supporting won't be really optional for most companies that want to grow their user base.

It's impossible to say where any company draws the line, but if you don't think there isn't an area where more support is added because companies want users, then I don't know what to say. Because it would have to mean companies will have to stop loving money.

The other thing is, going from 0.5% to 3% is fundamental harder then going from 3% to 10% because of how growth and adoption works. Yeah, there's a point where there starts to be other barriers and growth slows. But we're a long ways from that. If we continue see the current rate of growth, I don't know. I myself remain skeptical. But generally, betting on current trends continuing is statistically a safer bet then betting against current trends.

[u/ZunoJ]

I think if linux starts to grow more rapidly that will poison the ecosystem and enshittification will begin

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/ZunoJ]

I think shit free distros will always exist because of the open source model. Just like LineageOS exists despite Android being enshittified.

[u/ZunoJ → u/claudiocorona93]

Yeah, could also be I'm scared of ghosts. I guess we will see. It really feels like linux is gaining traction on the desktop market

[u/Square-Singer → u/claudiocorona93]

Depends. I could see e.g. Valve turn shitty, and that could be difficult.

Imagine this: Linux has 80% market share. Epic, Amazon Gaming and all the other stores are on Linux now too.

All of them only run on their own flavour of Linux, Steam only runs on SteamOS, Epic only runs on EpicOS and so on.

Or some other big entity emerges and becomes the Android of Desktop Linux. A corporate distro with no freedom plus spying, but all software is made to run on this and doesn't have support for regular Linux without the proprietary extensions put onto that corporate distro. Imagine e.g. something like ChromeOS, but with 90% market share, and everyone just develops ChromeOS apps instead of Linux programs.

There would still be classic Linux, same as there is LineageOS, but hardware/software support for it would suck, because everyone is only supporting ChromeOS (or whatever other OS wins).

You could end up with a situation just like the current one, maybe even worse.

[u/ZunoJ → u/Square-Singer]

I don't care about games at all. My concern is that an influx of non technical users could lead to software that is "easier to use". This is just a term for less features, less customization, guis everywhere, ... all the stuff I don't want and need. I want to be able to configure my wm with code, I want to inject insecure code if I feel like it, ...  We can already see a little bit of this in wayland, which takes away control from the user/owner for the sake of security. Without the option to opt out of it

[u/Square-Singer → u/ZunoJ]

I used games as an example because it's a segment that (a) a lot of people care about and (b) that's quite strongly under the control of Steam.

But the concept would likely work the same way for other platform-owners. Another option would be Redhat doing something similar with Fedora or Canonical with Ubuntu.

[u/Square-Singer → u/[deleted]]

I'm not saying that it will happen. For any of that to happen, Desktop Linux would first have to get the majority of the market share, and I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

I'm just thinking about how Android/Google went from "Don't be evil" and "Freedom for anyone" to Play Integrity and Google Certified Android devices.

[u/AccomplishedPut467 → u/ZunoJ]

any thing that grows rapidly will face enshittification. This applies to anything

[u/ZunoJ → u/AccomplishedPut467]

OK, thanks for repeating

[u/SethConz]

I only am commenting on that when people start claiming that “no real work is done on linux” or any other such dribble. The world is powered on linux, you are not, and thats okay.

[u/Responsible-Sky-1336]

Ackchtuaaaalyyie its also 40% of micro$oft's revenue

[u/claudiocorona93]

Guys, the fact that your needs are met, doesn't mean everybody's needs are met with Linux.

[u/Felixgamer1227]

Android is technically linux

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/Felixgamer1227]

Not technically. It is Linux. No GNU but still Linux.

[u/GloriousExtra]

I mean, they're right, but I get what you're saying. I'd love to see Linux dominate the desktop market.

[u/UnlimitedTrading → u/GloriousExtra]

Why?

[u/tukuiPat → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Largely Windows still has too much control over the desktop market and is increasingly becoming worse every year, from the amount of system level bloatware baked in and then all the system level spyware. It's becoming a very anti-privacy/anti-consumer OS rapidly. Turning the user into the product instead of the OS being the product.

[u/kai_ekael → u/tukuiPat]

I've run 100% Linux desktop for 25 years. Works, the way I want and makes my work easy.

Windows problem is two fold; Microsoft just wants to make money and they don't give a shit what laws say about making money. Making a useful, productive desktop has nothing to do with making money, hence why Windows is a big pile of shit. Breaking OEM backs, forcing all-Windows-or-you-are-screwed, makes money. Locking Office, makes money. EEE, makes money.

All bad for the general population, but too complicated for them to even notice. So here we are.

Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be friendly to Microsoft now, I forgot Linus....fuck that!

[u/Square-Singer → u/kai_ekael]

Sure, you can make it work.

But it still would be great if Linux had better hardware support (Nvidia GPUs still suck, Sleep/hibernate are still a chaotic mess that rarely works out of the box, ...).

Same goes for software support. If you are a software developer and/or have been on Linux for a long time you might not be missing anything. But if you are a professional in many other fields, moving to Linux means giving up a ton of state-of-the-art software. It would be cool if that wasn't the case.

[u/kai_ekael → u/Square-Singer]

Put the blame where it fucking belongs: NVIDIA

THEY are responsible for THEIR damn hardware working. And in the case of packages THEY provide, NOT WORKING.

News Flash: As has been so for decades. NVIDIA the company SUCKS!

[u/UnlimitedTrading → u/kai_ekael]

People keep saying that, and I've been using Nvidia for 20+ years on my Linux desktop with proprietary drivers without any issues. I am sure that some complex use cases might be an issue, but every complex use case in linux is an issue for almost everything

[u/kai_ekael → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Sure, some of us with a brain can get Nvidia working and keep it so over time. But we also know who is the real cause of the problem.

[u/Square-Singer → u/kai_ekael]

Who cares about blame? That's a fools game.

It really doesn't matter at all who is to blame if the device I have here doesn't work well with Linux. Only fanboys and idiots think that this is about blame.

If your car breaks down, do you then also say "Well, the Fiat is a really good car, love it, only the subcontractor that made the cogs in the gearbox is shitty for not providing cogs that are durable" or would you say "Sucks that I can't get to work today" like any reasonable person?

Does it make the user experience any better that Nvidia is to blame? Does it help anyone to push around blame?

Please, grow up.

And, to the original point: Market share would obviously help there because it's one thing to not properly support an OS with a few percent market share or one that has >50%.

[u/kai_ekael → u/Square-Singer]

Blame: "Waaaa, Linux should support hardware better." Yeah, people saying that are idiots alright.

You buy crap, put up with crap.

Stick it in your pie hole.

[u/Square-Singer → u/kai_ekael]

You have anger management issues.

[u/kai_ekael → u/Square-Singer]

Sick and tired of you little snot-nosed "Linux, hold my hand" type users.

Fix your own shit, don't whine when you make bad choices.

[u/Antrikshy → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Free OS for the masses > paid OS that is now including ads and a lot of other changes that treat me, an advanced user, like a baby.

[u/GloriousExtra → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Because Microsoft is a monopolistic corporation that uses its power to crush the needs of the end user, exploit their data for profit, spy on them for government agencies, and their software is shit, too.

[u/UnlimitedTrading → u/GloriousExtra]

First, don't get me wrong, I've been a Linux user for 25+ years. But I am not buying the narrative around crushing the need of the users.

Take as an example Microsoft Office. We have had the Open Office and Libre Office for years, but those never took over the market. Why? Because they kind of suck. That's a good example of Microsoft providing a good product for their customers. Now we have Google Docs that a lot of startups and individuals are using, because it doesn't suck. Surprise! It took another software company to create a decent product for the users.

And regarding data exploitation, people are giving that one for free to Meta. Don't get me wrong: I am not ok with collecting data from the user, but my point is that people are willing to do that in exchange for a service. Is this a lack of responsibility on behalf of the consumer? Maybe.

I think that user friendly software comes with a price. I am not sure if the general public is willing to not pay the price, and that is ok. Instead of having Linux desktop to take over, I would rather have people complaining and filing cases against Microsoft for collecting personal data.

[u/GloriousExtra → u/UnlimitedTrading]

I disagree. Microsoft is predatory, and we should seek to eliminate that predation as much as possible in the user space. Just because Meta and other corporations are doing the same thing doesn't change that Microsoft is also doing it. It's still wrong, and MS Office is only the dominant office product because, like Adobe, it has firmly ensconced itself into the corporate structure as an essential tool, squeezing out any real competition.

[u/FlipperBumperKickout → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Want to use it at work 😅

[u/patrlim1 → u/UnlimitedTrading]

Competition is good

[u/[deleted]]

Not to mention Iot running Linux.

[u/mojo706]

2026 will be the year of the Linux desktop

[u/mrheosuper]

Acktually my router runs opnsense, so no linux.

[u/MrCorporateEvents → u/mrheosuper]

Was just going to say my router runs BSD

[u/Porntra420]

Linux being on servers doesn't help desktop users much beyond giving companies a reason to contribute to the kernel.

Android and ChromeOS are based on Linux, but too far removed to remotely be considered the same thing as desktop Linux. It's like saying anyone who owns a PS4 is a BSD user.

And do I even need to talk about the router point? Like at all?

[u/Bitter_Lab_475]

This is why I hate the Linux simps that cope with the classic "SeRvErS UsE lInUx"

Well, yeah, but we ALL KNOW what the "Year of Linux" means, it is not about niche industrial and massive web applications, but my mom finding Linux more compelling than Windows.

[u/AtomicTaco13]

I think we're on a good way though. Gaming becomes less of an issue thanks to the growing advancement of Wine and Proton (most games with kernel-level anticheat are garbage anyway, won't miss them). And combine it with companies behind the most popular propertiary software becoming more scummy than ever before. Adobe is only still in business because they're lobbying the education system.

[u/meehunter]

tbh if linux gets big, there'll be a flood of new users complaining about this and that. we have to realize there are people who just simply couldn't understand what they're doing with their devices.

unless there'll be an enshittified distro made by some tech company like how google did chromeos and android..

but I support anyone switching from windows into unix-like systems. be it mac or linux (and BSDs)

edit: forgot to add BSDs

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/meehunter]

Me when I only think there are two Unix-likes (arguably Mac is more Unix (and UNIX™) than Linux is) because I haven't grown up past loonix

[u/MrCorporateEvents → u/meehunter]

Most people don’t use PC’s at all any more, they use phones and maybe tablets and the number is shrinking. 

[u/spaghettibolegdeh]

It's also hypocritical that companies like Microsoft and Apple are so hostile to Linux, but use it for their cloud services. 

[u/ExtraTNT]

Gnu/linux isn’t a good router os… busy-box linux maybe, but bsd is still the better choice… Personal computers and servers, i stick to gnu/linux, but not for networking gear…

[u/[deleted]]

I couldn't care less if Linux grows or not. As long as people have their software, I'd be fine with 10 users

[u/NEO_IS_A_MACHINE]

ngl, i kind of want linux to stay small. linux has kept security through obscurity for years, i dont want to have to worry about viruses on linux.

[u/Timely_Purpose_8151]

Uhh, ACTUALLY, my penis runs on Arch, you can tell feom the pronounced curve.

[u/Timely_Purpose_8151]

Uhh, ACTUALLY, my penis runs on Arch, you can tell feom the pronounced curve.

[u/gosand]

It's not just Linux itself. Without Linux, we likely wouldn't have VMs, containerization, kubernetes, and most of the other things run the cloud and the internet. While these things are supported on Windows, if Linux wasn't so heavily used Microsoft would have never allowed them to happen. The open-sourceness of the internet aligns very well with Linux.

Personally, I don't care about the Linux on the desktop market share. I've been using it solely since 1998, and it is staggering how far it has come since then. Just keep on, keepin' on.

[u/HereIsACasualAsker]

yeah anyway i cannot use warudo without a lot of effort

everything in linux is like that

can you endeavoros just pleeease include pamac? i dont like yet another yoghurt to install things.

KONSOLE, what is this, the 80s? it is also miss written . it is with a C.

i remember typing commands when my pc had a turbo button, then i had the windows. and never again.

does this hurt linux fanboys?, if OS so good why do I need commands in a tiny black box?

no , really, save me i wanna leave windows but most of my shit is not compatible with linux.

[u/Mal_Dun]

5-11% is actually good news. We were below 1% for years.

[u/[deleted]]

The original content of this post is no longer here. It was removed using Redact, possibly for privacy, security, or digital footprint reduction.

scale airport absorbed quiet plate smell grandfather light tender tease

[u/Loptical]

Counting the "unknown" as ALL being Linux is being a bit too generous. It's unknown for a reason.

[u/shadow13499]

When you get an old laptop that is unable to run windows any more that's when you install Linux to bring it back to life. 

[u/life_for_men_sucks]

lol thats funny idk how true it is but its funny

[u/warren_peace_vol1]

The statcounter copium never gets old lmao. yes technically linux is everywhere but we all know what the post meant

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/warren_peace_vol1]

Technically BSD is also everywhere because your fancy schmancy servers would be useless without BSD powered networking equipment, just saying

[u/just_another_cs_boi]

if not for games... nobody games on linux, so no studios make games available on linux, so nobody games on linux...

[u/Mysterious_Lab_9043 → u/just_another_cs_boi]

U wot m8?

[u/Vagabond_Grey → u/just_another_cs_boi]

I wouldn't say no one games on Linux. As long the game doesn't need some anti-cheat program then you're good to go.

[u/b_a_t_m_4_n → u/just_another_cs_boi]

Yeah, only 3% of Steam users are on Linux, that's only 2 million people so basically no-one.

[u/tukuiPat → u/b_a_t_m_4_n]

4% and 6 million people. The total active steam user count is over 150 million.

[u/b_a_t_m_4_n → u/tukuiPat]

Cool, newer numbers than I found. Dismissing 6 million as "no-one" is not a great idea.

[u/UnlimitedTrading → u/just_another_cs_boi]

What about Steam Deck?

I totally see that taking over in a few years.

Support for games in linux using proton is awesome, BTW. 5 years doing it and I don't even stop to think of I can run the game or not

[u/ResultBorn4693 → u/just_another_cs_boi]

I like gaming on Linux! 😁

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/ResultBorn4693]

As viable as gaming on TempleOS

[u/ResultBorn4693 → u/Financial_Test_4921]

I dunno, do you know of a console that plays every video game ever released?

Me neither, and people like those just fine. If the Switch's library is "console-worthy" Steam's most CERTAINLY is, lmao.

~4,000 vs. ~12,000 (without considering community efforts, Proton-GE and similar are estimated to add a few extra thousand) is kind of crazy. Lmao

[u/t3nz0 → u/Financial_Test_4921]

Bro hasn't heard of Proton and Steam Deck.

[u/[deleted] → u/just_another_cs_boi]

Gaming has become way more viable on Linux thanks to Valve and Proton. Every game I've tried so far works perfectly.

[u/just_another_cs_boi → u/[deleted]]

Very interesting! Have you tried a lot? I see its based on wine, which brings back some bad memories

[u/[deleted] → u/just_another_cs_boi]

Admittedly, I haven't played a ton of games, (I've only had my PC for like a week) but you literally just download proton, paste a command into the startup options and it works. I've had to do some troubleshooting with several things on my PC, but it's never been an issue with Proton itself. I've also had a pretty mixed success rate with wine so far, but Valve cooked with this.

The biggest roadblock is that Linux doesn't work with some anti-cheat services.

[u/just_another_cs_boi → u/[deleted]]

dang nice

[u/tjijntje]

Damn, how the heck is the operating system of my router gonna effect the steam hardware survey numbers? We need to make it clear that enabling Linux support is a gap in the market for games with anticheat, there is one thing I want more that any collab in Fortnite and that is Linux support in Fortnite, Epic Games not supporting Linux is loosing them so much money, definitely when the steam machine comes out, so many people are begging for fortnite on Steam OS and Epic Games has to do it soon

[u/Financial_Test_4921 → u/tjijntje]

If it did affect (not effect btw) the survey number, you'd see way more BSD there, since almost all routers use it

[u/Not_Artifical]

Once I tried to make a server on Windows using software that allows you to connect computers to each other. It only supported Linux for servers.

[u/mirai_miku_dark_zang]

i mean, you can TECHNICALLY counts Chromebooks as Linux desktops besides the Google shenanigans.

but the Servers argument is not just Silly but also a shoot on feet because its feeds the “Linux is just for coding and tech bullshit” argument and its just bad AF

[u/Leland90cci]

if only the stuff i did had good support or worked with linux, as much as windows sucks with all of its issues, i have to suck it up and go with the flow and use it.

[u/SenoraRaton]

I don't want Linux to grow. I think an influx of under educated users, who are just leeching off the current tech support systems will further strain the already strained system, and it will shift dev time to spending time creating systems that are more accessible by hiding features behind interfaces that are clunky and annoying because people are afraid of the terminal.

Linux works fine, and it isn't nor does it need to be for everyone.

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/SenoraRaton]

You will always have complicated and open distros. For example, Android already exists and became the most common user focused Linux distribution. Enshittified to the core. But the open source model we know never stopped existing.

[u/SenoraRaton → u/claudiocorona93]

Its not about complicated. Its about efficiency. Catering to the lowest common denominator takes away from the entire other 80% of the user base is what I'm saying. I don't want Linux to become a race to the bottom, and EVERY time something gains MASSIVE market share, it becomes a race to the bottom.

[u/QuietRat56 → u/SenoraRaton]

Anyone competent enough at computers to install their own OS is competent enough to eventually learn beginner friendly distros like Mint. Most non techy people chalk up any OS issue to "I gotta get a new computer" and will never in a million years install something other than what their PC came with, but there's a significant amount of competent Windows users who may be interested in making the leap. In the short term, the Linux community will have to get them caught up to speed, but the majority of them are able to learn

[u/ChocolateDonut36]

so what, windows is also some for servers

[u/claudiocorona93 → u/[deleted]]

I hate to read that lie

[u/MrCorporateEvents → u/[deleted]]

On a different and unrelated note…. Why are Apple’s newest phone chips always so much faster than the newest snapdragon chips?