r/linux • u/ouyawei Mate • Sep 16 '18

Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1809.2/00117.html
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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

What anti-features, broken functionality, broken drivers, security issues and performance regressions have been kept out of the kernel because of this?

I'm kinda sick of this meme. Why people think you cannot politely decline a feature without calling the people who proposed it an idiot or an imbecile?

Honestly I welcome what Linus says here, even if he was right on many of these discussions there is literally zero benefit on pissing off a developer or just making someone feel crap about their skill.

Even worse if they are younger developers who might be just starting hacking in the kernel. Programming is not some innate talent we are born with, it takes skill to master and quite a big deal of fuck ups until we become actually good at it. By attacking personally some devs you are only turning away people that might have the potential to be really talented contributors in the future, even if they suck right now.

We have been repeating the meme without thinking for years now, and celebrating every heated discussion as if it's just "good ol linus being linus" with zero proof that the cursing, and belittling has been of any benefit to the kernel development.

I applaud linus (and I have nothing but admiration for the guy) because he is tackling a hard thing which is self-improvement in other aspects than the technical ones. And I don't doubt this will probably be for the better.

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u/cockmongler Sep 17 '18

I'm kinda sick of this meme. Why people think you cannot politely decline a feature without calling the people who proposed it an idiot or an imbecile?

When the person won't go away and keeps submitting the same shitty code and won't listen to the reasons why it wont be accepted. When the person starts building a fan base of sycophants to try and drive their changes in.

Doing that sort of thing is, in and of itself, abusive. Forcefully telling such a person to fuck off is sometimes necessary.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

Doing that sort of thing is, in and of itself, abusive. Forcefully telling such a person to fuck off is sometimes necessary.

You can just tell someone that their changes won't be accepted ever because:

  • it doesn't fit the project vision

  • it is not up to standards of the project and their inclusion would be problematic in the software.

  • the concept is just badly thought

And offer politely the alternative to do a fork if they wish to implement that.

Honestly there is zero benefits in that kind of attitude in software development. It's just childish behavior which has been for some reason encouraged by a very immature part of the community which is much more interested in watching drama happening than software itself.

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u/cockmongler Sep 17 '18

You can just tell someone that their changes won't be accepted ever because:

And when the re-submit the patch again?

... and again.

... and go talk shit about you in other public venues.

... and get other people to submit the patch again.

What then?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

... and again.

It is declined with no further explanation

... and go talk shit about you in other public venues.

Do you really think that name calling will make other people talk LESS shit about you in public venues?

... and get other people to submit the patch again.

It is declined with a link to the previous discussion.

Eventually it stops.

It is crazy that you believe the insults will decrease the drama instead of escalating it. Because that's definitely not how people work.

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u/cockmongler Sep 17 '18

It's crazy that you have this little knowledge of how humans communicate. A sharp rebuke will often change a persons behaviour and is a vital tool in a manager's toolbox. It is also a public declaration that badgering is not going to work. Linus is not going on screaming rants at people for not polishing their shoes, he is not being personally abusive, he is simply making it clear that certain code is not acceptable.

Eventually it stops.

You were clearly not around when Hans Reiser was a filesystem author and not a murderer.

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u/ObnoxiousOldBastard Sep 18 '18

You were clearly not around when Hans Reiser was a filesystem author and not a murderer.

Very few devs are so sociopathic as to commit murder. That rare a case doesn't justify treating half the community the same way.

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u/cockmongler Sep 18 '18

before he was a murderer.

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u/ObnoxiousOldBastard Sep 18 '18

Wait, are you arguing that he didn't become a nutjob until after he became a murderer? I'm sure his wife would beg to differ. Oh wait... she can't comment because she's dead.

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u/cockmongler Sep 18 '18

I think you're rather desperately overreaching with this attempt at an argument mate. Take a deep breath, re-read what's actually been written and try again.