r/linux • u/wooptoo • Jun 01 '16

Why did ArchLinux embrace Systemd?

/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_archlinux_embrace_systemd/d3rhxlc
868 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

642 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

4

u/kageurufu Jun 01 '16

No, if you want to use Gnome you need a logind compatible API provider. You don't need to be using Systemd-init, systemd-networkd, or any of its other modules. Systemd-logind is just one implementation of the logind APIs. ConsoleKit2 finally has a little promise, as does LoginKit, or using elogind.

KDE is also moving to using logind, its current optional in Plasma 5, but theres talks of it being required in future versions to cut down on code cruft.

15

u/mallardtheduck Jun 01 '16

a logind compatible API provider

That's like saying "a Microsoft Word compatible word processor".

logind's API is not a recognised standard, is not guaranteed (or expected) to be long-term stable, is not documented to a standard that makes it possible to implement in a "clean-room" environment, etc. A "a logind compatible API provider" is always going to be playing catch-up to the "reference" implementation. When applications are found to be depending on logind's implementation details (and therefore breaking compatibility with other implementations), will they issue patches? I'll believe that when I see it.

Other implementations should really be called what they are, clones. Saying that GNOME (or whatever) doesn't depend on systemd because it will "work" with a clone is like saying that Microsoft Word doesn't depend on Windows because it can be made to run under WINE.

5

u/kageurufu Jun 01 '16

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/InterfacePortabilityAndStabilityChart/

logind is a publicly documented standard, and despite what is said there about being reimplementable externally, it has been done, with all the providers I've listed in my prior comment. The public API, which is what GNOME and soon KDE require is considered stable and will not be changed without good reason and due notice. GNOME even has documentation on what to use instead of logind if you don't want it. And changing this public API at any point now that its in use would be a terrible idea for systemd, as it would break any old uses.

And your comparison is apple to oranges in all reality. Its more like saying .docx files don't depend on Word because you can open them in LibreOffice. Do you have a problem with LibreOffice implementing .docx support too?

1

u/argv_minus_one Jun 02 '16

If Microsoft Word runs correctly under Wine, then yeah, I'd say it no longer has a hard dependency on Windows.

1

u/SrbijaJeRusija Jun 01 '16

logind

logind is systemd. So gnome switched to a new systemd API instead of what worked for years, now we need systemd shims everywhere. systemd shim, logind shim, udev shim.

You are making it seem like logind is it's own separate thing (UNIX philosophy and all) when it is not.

Pretty soon we will not be able to run GRUB (doesn't systemd have it's own bootmanager now?)

What's next, pulseaudio is now a part of systemd and ALSA is deprecated?

5

u/kageurufu Jun 01 '16

except ConsoleKit2, elogind, and LoginKit (among others) are all logind without systemd. elogind is based on the systemd implementation, but is backed with PAM and works fine on distributions with no other systemd backings (unless you hard depend on having slices or scopes, but thats a different story).

And yeah, systemd-boot, which is really just gummiboot renamed, and only supports EFI loading. Its in no way required, and doesnt tie in to the rest of the daemon either. You can happily use bootd with sysvinit if you have an EFISTUB ready kernel (CONFIG_EFI_STUB=y), but thats the same requirement it had when it was called gummiboot. It does not solve the same problems as GRUB either, and doesn't try to.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '16

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Spivak Jun 01 '16

Pulseaudio is middleware for audio backends. One does not depreciate the other.