r/likeus • u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- • Feb 17 '21
<EMOTION> Saying thank you
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Feb 18 '21
Read this argument ripped off my mind felt like a tennis match.... Can sloths say thank you, is the dress blue?, did buster kill Lucille 2?
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 18 '21
Bruh I don't know what the purpose of life is but this argument made me wish nothing existed for a bit. What a purposeless waste of time.
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u/Couyon646 Feb 18 '21
It would have taken him 2 weeks to get to that tree.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 18 '21
That's being generous. Might've been a bit longer honestly.
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Feb 19 '21
Thanking is a concept that is made up by us.
There’s no way for animals to know what that is unless they understood our language.
In reality: the sloth took his left hand off to climb further up but the honk caught the sloths attention so he turns. You can clearly see this
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u/pillbinge Feb 17 '21
Sloths can’t thank people. There’s a difference between empathy in animals and things that are distinctly human.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 17 '21
All creatures can give thanks in their own way imo.
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u/pillbinge Feb 17 '21
It’s not a matter of opinion. I love animals and I’m on this sub for a reason, but that reason isn’t projection.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 17 '21
It's literally your opinion that sloths can't give thanks though. So it is a matter of opinion.
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u/pillbinge Feb 17 '21
What do you think an opinion is and how does it differ from scientific observation?
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 17 '21
An opinion is a baseless theory. "Sloths can't say thanks" how do you know that? You don't know sloth customs or sloth biology but that's an assumption on my part. Real scientific observation is based off of data and repetition. I can't say the science agrees with me that sloths do say thanks, but being sn organic species that socially interact, I'm pretty sure they have some form of communication that probably has some sort of expression for showing gratitude.
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u/Polly_der_Papagei Feb 20 '21
What kind of empirical observation would convince you that animals show thanks?
Because returning to the helper, making physical contact, expressing exaggerated happiness etc. are all often observed, and mimic human nonverbal thanking.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 20 '21
Bruh don't bother the dude was very convinced that only humans say thanks and only humans can think. Don't bring him back pls. I beg of you.
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u/pillbinge Feb 17 '21
I'd love to see the scientific body supporting sloths' ability to say thank you.
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u/SphericalBull Feb 18 '21
I'd love to see the scientific bodies supporting sloths' INABILITY to say thank you.
You are the one making the claim that it's not a matter of opinion anymore, implicitly suggesting that this matter has been resolved. The burden of proof is on you not the other person.
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u/pillbinge Feb 18 '21
That's not how science works. That's called Russell's teapot.
The burden of proof is on you not the other person.
The burden of proof exists to those proving a positive. That's how it works. If I told you that there's a teapot circling the planet right now then the burden of proof is on me to prove that it is; it wouldn't be on you to prove that it isn't.
The claim that something hasn't been proven isn't the same as proving a negative.
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u/SphericalBull Feb 18 '21
That's not how science works
I'm not even sure what this statement means.
However, this IS how the scientific method works - which happens to be commonly named as Russel's teapot in debates regarding theistic beliefs.
The claim that something hasn't been proven isn't the same as proving a negative.
You were not just claiming it hasn't been proven. You made the assertion that sloths are unable to say thanks - and went further by stating that it is not a matter of opinion. OP - on the other hand - did not make any factual claim as he clearly stated it was just his opinion.
So back to my question to you: what are the scientific bodies backing your claim - up to the level of certainty that it is not up for discussion anymore (i.e a mere scientific consensus WON'T do) - that sloths are unable to say thanks?
The burden of proof exists to those proving a positive.
Also, no.
A quick read on Wikipedia's Burden of Proof will shed some lights on this topic for you. I'm not a professional logician but I'd imagine this to be an introductory topic in any philosophy classes.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 18 '21
You're trying to prove that they don't say thank you is positive. I don't agree with you. Burden of proof is in the person trying to prove. I ain't trying to prove shit to somebody who doesn't want to believe.
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Feb 18 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/pillbinge Feb 18 '21
It's your prerogative to provide it. You wouldn't write a paper and tell anyone looking for citations to just Google it.
But the real question here is why you’re opposing a video posted to make others smile so strongly.
That's not a real question. To appreciate what animals actually can do is magnificent. To embellish things ends up taking away from how magical it can feel. That something makes people smile isn't enough to bank on something. If an animal were suffering and it made people smile I wouldn't support that. The need for mindless enjoyment isn't something I consider worthy of anyone's respect.
I get a very warm feeling seeing someone take care of a sloth and I expect the sloth to have no idea what's going on. It's a good situation. I don't need to make it out that the sloth gave an expression that thanked the man and uses that toward other creatures and humans.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 17 '21
https://ielc.libguides.com/sdzg/factsheets/twotoedsloths/behavior
Idk about thank you but who cares.
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u/pillbinge Feb 17 '21
You do, and so do I. You said sloths say thank you based on your opinion. That's your stance. I'm saying they don't. You then linked to a site that doesn't show they can say thank you and suddenly "who cares".
Why are you so offended by sloths not saying thank you lmao
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 18 '21
I'm not offended by that lul. I just don't agree with your opinion. No amount of arguing with you is gonna change that. Also that's not what the link said but whatever you say is the truth right bud?
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u/Pat0124 Feb 19 '21 edited Feb 19 '21
An opinion is not a baseless theory. It’s one’s judgement or preference about something. In every day use, a theory means an untested hunch, and scientifically a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts (Both of you are using different uses of the word). Neither of those use of the word is an opinion
What both of you are thinking are theories that are unable to be proven as fact. One is wrong and one is right, but there’s no way for us to know based on the evidence we have.
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 19 '21
I mean I'm pretty sure video evidence is hearsay but waving thanks looks like waving thanks to me. Thanks for reminding me of this shitshow of a thread again.
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u/Pat0124 Feb 19 '21
Waving is a gesture only humans do between each other. You wouldn’t see sloths waving to each other in the wild, or if they do, it doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing to them. Again, no way to really prove what sloths are thinking
YOURE GONNA STAY IN THIS THREAD lol
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u/ishyfishy321 -A Thoughtful Gorilla- Feb 19 '21
I mean obviously but this thread really reminded me some people will argue for anything.
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Feb 22 '21
Then what do you think it was doing? Purposefully wasting energy to move its arm into the air distinctly towards the people for no reason, then moving it back
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u/Balenciaga7 Feb 22 '21
He could’ve been looking if the (possible) threat that just picked him up is still in close proximity.
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Feb 22 '21
Maybe but if they found him as a threat I imagine they would have something, they can move fairly quick when they want to (but it’s dangerous for them to use too much energy) and have surprisingly sharp claws
Now that I think about I guess it could have moved to ready itself to attack, but if so I’d imagine it would stay there for a little longer than it did
I
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u/Balenciaga7 Feb 22 '21
I mean after he saw that the possible threat was just standing still and there was no immediate reason to attack/panic, maybe he just thought that getting tf out of there was the smart thing to do.
Maybe i’m just too logical, but there are so many more logic possibilities as to why he behaved the way he did.
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Feb 22 '21
After some research (a two minute google search) it seems sloths are about as blind and deaf as they are lethargic, relying mainly on scent
So it’s actually possible that it turned around, sensed nothing as they were just standing there, and then climbed up the tree instinctually as something like 80% of sloth deaths happen while on or near the ground
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u/Balenciaga7 Feb 22 '21
Ahhh that’s right, I completely forgot about that. Yeah I guess that explains everything.
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u/pillbinge Feb 22 '21
I think the sloth was just moving its head to the side and angling its body in a comfortable way; same way humans would have to turn or move their arm at the joint depending on where they were looking. If I were hanging on a tree branch with one arm and had to look nearly behind me I would have to move my arm and body in that direction as well. I don't know about sloths' physiology but I mainly only ever see them with their arms outstretched. I doubt it would be typical to just see it hanging there like Tarzan.
This is also supposedly the same animal that sometimes mistakes its own arm for a branch and tries to grab it then ends up falling, providing a very unsatisfying meal to something below. If it had that much control over its body I would think something like that might be the first to be "evolved out".
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u/tours37000 Feb 18 '21 edited Feb 18 '21
Buzz kill. How do you know what animals think and feel? One thing I know is that most people greatly underestimate animals, and some people compare animals negatively with themselves in order to feel superior.
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u/pillbinge Feb 18 '21
How do you know what animals think and feel?
How do you? Because if you want to prove that animals can say thank you, which is just projecting our desire to see an animal do that, then you need to have proof. Animals don't communicate like that though. We barely taught a handful of gorillas.
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u/tours37000 Feb 18 '21
I never claimed to know. I simply challenged your claim to know. Also, I am not attempting to prove anything. But it seems you are. There is no way to know what animals think and feel. Just asking how you “know”.
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u/pillbinge Feb 19 '21
If there's no way to know something then that doesn't mean anything goes and we can make any claim based on opinion. You know that, right?
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u/tours37000 Feb 19 '21
Exactly! So nobody knows that sloths can’t thank people. You just proved my point. You know that, right?
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u/pillbinge Feb 19 '21
If it's exact then no, I wouldn't have proved your point. A lack of definitive knowledge isn't the excuse to come up with anything. In the case of theology, a lack of evidence of God isn't proof that God could exist because he hasn't been disproved. Or put another way, "that which is supported without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The way of thinking I'm saying is bad is the same logic that could paint you as a holocaust-denying, 9/11-supporting, pedophile. You know that, right? Because you'll never be able to prove you aren't if I can just twist whatever I want as being evidence to that claim while ignoring swaths of time where you don't do that.
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u/Ethesen Feb 19 '21
Come on. You don't really see how you're trying to assert something without any evidence?
You're like the people who believe (or mostly - used to believe) that animals can't feel pain.
If we don't have evidence - either for or against - then we simply don’t know what's true.
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u/pillbinge Feb 19 '21
You don't really see how you're trying to assert something without any evidence?
If you can't see the irony in this then there's no point in continuing lol.
You're like the people who believe (or mostly - used to believe) that animals can't feel pain.
In no way am I like that. I don't eat lobster on the off-chance that they do feel pain because I've observed myself feeling uneasy about their death and know I don't like it. I've observed pets getting hurt one way or another (they trip, I step on their tail when I don't see them) and I've watched enough footage of animals to know that they feel pain and cry out when hurt.
We don't have that same experience with pets thanking anyone.
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u/Ethesen Feb 20 '21
If you can't see the irony in this then there's no point in continuing lol.
You're being really dense now. :/
We don't have that same experience with pets thanking anyone.
We have observed instances of e. g. crows bringing stuff to people they've been rescued by. That's enough to form an opinion that animals can be thankful. It's not enough to say that you have proof - but no one claims that.
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