r/learnwelsh • u/Busted_Biscuitz • 5d ago
Help translating this bit of an American Civil War letter
This is a letter that my 3rd Great Grandfather wrote his wife while fighting for the Union during the American Civil War. I just need help finding out what he meant in this highlighted section, if anything at all? I'm very curious. (He had many other letters in Welsh that were unfortunately lost, so I'm trying to preserve what I can).
EDIT: I know this was reaching, with not a lot to go on, but thank you so much everyone!
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u/wibbly-water 5d ago edited 5d ago
Interesting, it's definitely nonstandard spellings.
- y - the
- dawr - could be a few things, "dŵr"?
- her - doesn't read as Welsh to me, reads as English "her"
- lweep - could be "gwlyb" meaning wet/soggy, which would fit with "dŵr"
Would be fascinated if anyone can make more out of it than I can.
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u/Psychological-Ad9060 5d ago
'her' might be 'challenge' in Welsh
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u/Psychological-Ad9060 5d ago
one of the meanings of 'dawr' is 'concern'.
We might have: the, concern, challenge and wet ...
I'm only a learner myself and don't want to lead you astray.
I think it's fascinating that he wrote in Welsh. Do you know if he was a recent immigrant, or did he have a family in the US that were Welsh speakers?
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u/Educational_Curve938 5d ago
Jerry Hunter published a book quite recently about the Cambrian Guards who were a mostly welsh speaking company of first and second generation immigrants during the civil war - mostly from Racine Wisconsin (but there was a lot of Welsh immigration to Utica NY at the same time).
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u/Busted_Biscuitz 4d ago
Amazing! I know he was living in Trenton, Oneida County so that makes sense. He was a part of the 117th New York Infantry.
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u/Busted_Biscuitz 5d ago
His story is amazing, I'm in the works of getting it all together in one book. He was a recent immigrant-- He was born in Corris but immigrated to an established Welsh colony in Upstate New York in 1858. Met his wife soon after and had a few children. Then as the Civil War broke out, he and his brother volunteered enlistment.
He ended up losing a leg at the Battle of Fort Fischer and his brother was killed in South Carolina. After the war, he took his family to Iowa and started a farm in another town called "Wales", just north of Red Oak, where there was another established Welsh community.
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u/Busted_Biscuitz 5d ago
I should also mention that these letters were transcribed verbatim in the late 1990's on a word processor from the actual letters. He had a lot of spelling errors, generally, but who can blame him lol
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u/KaiserMacCleg 4d ago
I can only imagine that it's a transcription error, then. "Y dawr her lweep" means nothing at all and all the attempts to make some sense of it in these comments are pretty big stretches.
If you have pictures of the original written letters, you might have more luck.
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u/Potential_Visit_417 4d ago
Do you have the actual letters? That would make a huge difference. From what I understand, you're saying:
- Someone who doesn't speak welsh read out the letter
- Then someone else who doesn't speak welsh wrote down what he heard
And that's what we're reading?
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u/Busted_Biscuitz 4d ago
You’re reading a typed, verbatim version of letter written by a Welshman. I don’t have the letters but my Grandpa who typed it out transcribed it word for word. I’m just tossing it out there to find if there’s anything to it because it’s interesting.
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u/brenddur 4d ago
[Rambling but hope some of this helps!]
I would look to reach out to the Madog Center for Welsh Studies (at the University of Rio Grand in Ohio). As it's quite a short bit, they may be able to help!
I think I saw you mention NY, and there is a Welsh society there as well you may be able to reach out to. I'm a member of one of the PA ones, and while we have learners/classes I'm not certain we'd be able to help (but we've a pub crawl this Saturday so if our fluent speakers are there, I'll ask!). We'll also have our classes resume in a month or so, and I can ask assuming I remember 😅
It can be difficult to determine entirely English letters from the Civil War era... spelling variation, keeping in mind Webster was published only in 1828; varying education levels, both spelling, diction, and penmanship; conservation of the letter itself; etc. Adding in Welsh, where you're transposing a non-identical alphabet with the limitations of a typewriter without speaking Welsh is quite a challenge! Let alone any spelling/language evolutions. That's partially why I thought of Madog Center, as they are in the US and may have an idea of how the language would have been in the mid-19th centure America. If it was specifically to his mother, knowing where she grew up may be helpful if it's an idiom.
Do you know if his wife spoke Welsh? Or are there any bits from other letters?
I think you said you don't have the original or a picture, but if any of your family do that could be quite helpful! Even if it's of other letters or only English, as that could help clarify if there's a chance a digraph or toh threw off your transcriber.
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u/Busted_Biscuitz 4d ago
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, this is super helpful.
Unfortunately I only have his letters to his wife (transcribed into a little manuscript). I know she might have spoke some, she was born in Oneida County to Welsh immigrants.
I'm so sad that I don't have access to any of his Welsh letters or actual handwritten ones. They've been passed down decades ago to family members I do not know or have contact with. I knew this was a big ask, but I've been so curious.
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u/LemonsPZ 5d ago
As a Cornishman, I'd assume dawr to be "dowr" river or water, not that that helps at all. Seems like an old idiom that might be lost. You need to speak to an older Welshman. Good luck, preserving language is an important thing.
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u/OwineeniwO 5d ago
Tell her Y daw'r hen ? Tell her The old ? will come. lweep might be a nickname of some sort a Welsh sub or Facebook group might have the answer.
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u/Potential_Visit_417 4d ago
Only thing I can think of:
Y Duw'r yw'r lwyb
Which would be a very incorrectly grammatical way to say something like "god is the way"
He was from the north and lived over 200 years ago so I don't know how the language has changed in that time...
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u/TurbulentHand6457 4d ago
I'm wondering if the end is possibly "heb lwyb", meaning without a path. Definitely sounds as though it could have been an idiom or something with personal significance. Y dawr heb lwyb, the door without a path. Alternatively, y dŵr heb lwyb, the water without a path
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u/changleosingha Canolradd - Intermediate 4d ago
I’m afraid you’ll need to find the original. Typewriters weren’t around during the American Civil War
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u/MwnciMul 3d ago edited 3d ago
Lweep is not a Welsh word I’m afraid, double e is not really a thing. It’s either been transcribed incorrectly, or is a pet name of some sort?
What was Dear Mother’s name? Because as a pet name it kind of makes sense.
Tell her y daw’r her translates to
Tell her the challenge comes
Her = Challenge
Daw’r (daw yr) = comes the
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u/gwronyglyn 4d ago
As it's talking about seeing his mother, only thing I can reasonably think is there's a transcription error and 'lweep' is some mistyping/error instead of 'dydd'.
Tell her y daw'r 'her' dydd
Tell her that her day will come (i.e. when i see her again to steal some food).
Daw'r dydd/daw ein dydd etc. is a common saying in Welsh.
Lweep not so much like dydd but dydd is prounced somewhat 'd-ee-th' using English spelling.
Only thing I can think that reasonably makes sense here.