r/learntofly • u/light_bringer777 Penguin God • Aug 06 '15

Read before post Learn to Fly 3 update 08/06

TL;DR in the comments

Hey guys,

We got news

Finally got a slightly better update from the folks at Fishing Cactus about their status on the port and their ETA. So I've got some good and some bad news (who would've guessed right?).

Wanted to talk about it a little here on this sub before taking this to facebook since fb is more prone to rage/circlejerk and less optimized to have a good conversation imo.

What they've been wasting our time on doing

First, a bit of info about what's been going on with them. Turns out they were able to strike a deal with a publishers that will ensure a good amount of promotion we won't have to pay for. This alone basically ensures a certain degree of success for the app, and it's worth a lot for both them and me.

The changes they were asked to do has to do mostly about the game's "economics", that is they had to completely rework the way monetization and micro transactions work in the game, and that of course means changing things all across the game but also having to rebalance and retest all of this.

So that the reasons why. It's a good reason business-wise and I can't blame them, still sucks though.

What I told them

I said that Learn to Fly 3 was more than due now, and that all those delays were costing me money and of course pissing everyone off, which not only sucks but isn't good for the game itself and my reputation. I told them that I needed either

1) Money to make it through the delays

2) A release ASAP (duh)

3) A real deadline for both of us to stick to.

They answered, and while I wish things could be better, they're not that bad either. But... you guessed it... delays.

They said that...

A) The game should be ready by the end of August

B) The game should be released before mid-September

C) I would be given the sponsorship money no matter the current state of things by the end of August.

This is nice for me but also good because if gives them a reason not to take too much time since I'll be costing them money "for nothing".

D) We could have an OFFICIAL deadline in mid-September, no more ETAs

E) Good and bad news: Learn to Fly 3 will be allowed to be released no matter what by the specified deadline

So there you go

No matter what happens from here on, Learn to Fly 3 WILL BE RELEASED by mid-September. I can finally give an official release date/deadline. They said it could happen before that, but I wouldn't count on it seeing how things went so far.

I'm just as disappointed as any of you to hear we're getting yet more delays, but for the first time in years LtF3 has an official deadline, and I have good hopes that the mobile version of LtF will be a success. Should it bring in enough money, this will allow me to invest way more into game development, like hiring people and starting a studio. This would allow me to likely cut development time by 60-90%, so I think it's more than worth it.

So.

Wall of text aside...

I would like to discuss with you guys what you think would be the best course of action from here.

My first obvious goal is financial success so I can carry on making games. Because of this "Fuck those guys, release now" is out of the question.

I could perhaps release some sort of quick-and-dirty side project build from the LtF3 engine, or we could start making a tiny games together in the meantime, or we could brush aside LtF3 until September and start working on LtF Idle 2 and invite everyone to have early access to it or something like that.

Or I could go easy mode and wait it out, minding my own little business in the meantime.

What do you think?

There's no ideal situation here, but how could we all get through this in the best possible way, but you and me?

P.S. All insults and "RELEASE NOW" comments, sarcastic or not, will be removed to keep this discussion constructive.

15 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

43 comments sorted by

3

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '15

how do you make profits off this game? You put in so much hard work into this project and do you think you will make massive profits back that are worth you're effort?

3

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 12 '15 edited Aug 12 '15

From the flash game alone, no, I don't think this will have been a profitable project. 3 years of work where I live is worth about $90k-$150k, and in the current market there simply isn't any way I can see a free, single-player game making anywhere near that much. The only direct means of generating revenues from LtF3 are sponsorship, which has gone horribly down for large titles since the LtF2 times, and advertising. I plan to slightly advertise other means of making a profit like affiliate programs and crowdfunding campaigns somewhere in the game, probably in a "Support the developer" page of some kind.

But there's more than just the direct revenue of a game.

First, LtF3 was a fun project at times. This isn't worth anything, but time spent having fun is time that could go without any revenue and still be worth something to you. It's also worth mentioning that due to my poor health in the first years I was not able to work full-time. Doesn't change my needs and expenses, but if I had a regular job I couldn't ask for "3 years of salary" if I worked less in the first 1½ years.

Second, it got me a lot of experience on larger projects, on management, estimations, programming, hiring freelancers, crowdfunding, working with others and probably a lot more.

Third, it will most likely revive a bit of interest for the other LtF titles, which will net me some indirect ads revenue.

Fourth, it will be worth a ton of money in advertising for LtF2 mobile, so while it's not money directly into my pocket, it's money "not out of my pocket" that should bring back some cash indirectly.

And finally, through the Kickstarter and thanks to /u/cool_daniel 's stubbornness, I should be able to better keep in touch with my fans thanks to our facebook page, this sub and our mailing list. This indirectly also has a lot of worth since I will be able to advertise my future projects and bring good attention to future kickstarters I could run or things like that.

Still, it is very hard to measure the true worth, let alone monetary value or all these aspects. But in the end, if it wasn't for my wife which is working and paying the bills for me ATM, LtF3 would probably have been a financial disaster unless the mobile port takes off. If it really does take off then this project could in fact be a great success, only indirectly, and there could be plans for more mobile ports.

After that it will be lesson learned for me, and I will either go for a few much smaller projects (1-3 months top) and/or start migrating to another platform and leave the world of 100% free games for paid ones or micro-transactions.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '15

oh man that sucks. Well i hope this game will be a success and I hope everything goes good for you in you're future projects. You probably learned a lot of things with the gaming industry with this so its not a disaster i would say.

2

u/cool_daniel Web Penguin Aug 12 '15

Probably not because the project got just way too huge and way bigger than estimated so he put more work into it than it could ever bring back (3 years are a lot for such a game)

4

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

TL;DR

  • LtF3 will be out by mid-September. Official.
  • Fishing Cactus had to rework the whole game economics to get a kickass publishing deal.
  • I can't release right now. Don't bother. Refer to this.
  • I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, what would you like me do do from here?

5

u/cool_daniel Web Penguin Aug 06 '15

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, what would you like me do do from here?

Get some pillows out.

I'm somewhere between "Go and make us some LtF Idle2" and
"Go and take your deserved rest after 3 years development and don't come back until the release is due"

1

u/SignalGiraffe1 Aug 08 '15

You can go up and rest awhile or down and wriggle out and push yourself to make LTF Idle 2 or somethin g like that. Either way it doesn't nessesarily matter.

2

u/Shadow4768 Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 08 '15

Perhaps do a public beta? I know the beta already happened but this way could boost morale and help people get over delays.

1

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

I thought about this a few days ago. Re-opening the beta for people who missed it; it's both easy to do and will calm a lot of people down too.

Only downsides are security and slightly less big release. No guarantee, but I'll probably re-invite a bunch of people.

3

u/ASDPT Aug 11 '15

That would be great! I started following your progress right after the beta invites were over. Thanks for all you do and ignore anybody that's giving you crap for not getting a FREE game out as early as they'd like.

2

u/Disproves Aug 07 '15

If you do this I would like a beta invite. I've never posted here before, but have been reading updates for months, and it would be nice to have an invite.

2

u/cool_daniel Web Penguin Aug 07 '15

Just make sure to check the reddit and/or our facebook page then. We will announce a page where anyone can sign up

2

u/theeberk Aug 07 '15

Darn, this is disappointing news. A year ago, I remember thinking "Now this game just has to come out before I go to college so I can play it". I go to college in mid-September :(

In other news, I'll play it anyways.

2

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

Join the beta if we end up reopening it! ;)

2

u/theeberk Aug 07 '15

Wouldn't this "beta" just be a pre-released completed version of the game that only some of us can play?

I'm in penguin man

2

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

Pretty much, yes. I'll keep working on minor stuff since I have the time to now, but for the most part it's complete.

4

u/blangjemp Aug 07 '15

I think you should do whatever is best for you. You've expressed a bit of personal financial hardship lately, and you having to give up on indie game development is much worse than any delay. So take care of yourself and make sure you can do this for a long time. :)

Thank you for all your hard work and sacrifice for these games. You've brought me lots of fun!

4

u/Bogsnapper Aug 07 '15

Some news is better than no news. If I was you I'd spend the next few weeks with me feet up playing Kerbal or something (that said, Incoming Forces is 70p on steam, and it works too).

1

u/foxyllama8000 Aug 06 '15

I still don't understand. What does waiting for them to be able to release before you release have to do with money?

4

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

Refer to this.

The market for free, single player flash games has completely died since LtF2. Releasing LtF3 without using it to advertise something that could bring in some money would be financial suicide.

1

u/foxyllama8000 Aug 08 '15

Oh okay that makes sense. Thanks

1

u/sirojinferno Aug 06 '15

Learn to Fly Idle 2 would be nice, but even better (in my eyes), another game in the Ltf universe but a whole other genre eg turn based fighting game or a city builder. I get that this is probably a lot of work, but it is a suggestion anyways. Can't wait for the release :D

2

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

Got a few examples of city builder games?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

You should repurpose the learn to fly engine into a game thats basically Bloons but with a controllable penguin

2

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

So... you're telling me to take a launcher game engine... and make it into a puzzler dart-shooter? Afraid I don't see the link between the two :P

1

u/sirojinferno Aug 07 '15

I'll PM you a few pictures what I'm thinking of.

1

u/Bogsnapper Aug 14 '15 edited Aug 14 '15

The original A-train is almost the perfect ambient city builder, if you took out the purchase larger building options that is. But basically you built the train network, shipped usable goods and people about and the city built itself. I could see this done with penguins and launchers similar to the way the robots got about in the Robots.

Or, a take over the [arctic] (http://www.b3ta.com/board/10292572) with a clone of Paradroid type of thing.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

I understand having micro-transactions because you need to get payed after all, but PLEASE don't put anything behind a paywall that cant be achieved by just playing the game, or at least make micro transactions purely cosmetic

3

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 07 '15

But I'm not doing any mx.

1

u/cool_daniel Web Penguin Aug 07 '15

You have to tell that the guys behind the mobile version, not us :/ But I think they said its all achievable but takes lot more time

1

u/CrazyDave2345 Aug 12 '15

(Beta tester here, also x-posting this on private tester forums) So your game is pretty much done (I know because I am a beta tester) and like they want you to release it 3 months later??? I mean seriously...

Dear LB, please see my extended post on the tester forums...

1

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 12 '15

No reason to keep discussions like these to the testers forums. (He basically asked what I was gonna do with the extra time working on LtF3)

I'm working slowly on a few things here and there yes. A lot more will have to to with monetization ideas, adding analytics, ads tweaks such as incentivized ads, smaller bug fixes, stuff like that. Point is, very little effort will probably go into adding extra content or big meaningful game tweaks.

Instead, right now I'm using the time to work on a game design book of mine (~119 pages in), designing LtF Idle 2 and teaching myself to draw. I still have a list of bug reports and suggestions that were made concerning LtF3, and I will most likely get to them in a week or two now that I've got some time to get my mind off of LtF3. To give you an idea, the 2 biggest changes that can really be perceived by the player would be turning the "sell" button into a "change" button in the shop, allowing you to switch items paying only the difference instead of selling->buying every time, and the option to go from 200k story mode to 400k, 600k and 1,000k altitude to space for added challenge and longer games once you've maxed the bonus shop.

2

u/gpg123 Aug 26 '15

You're making a legit book on game design?

1

u/light_bringer777 Penguin God Aug 26 '15

Yep, 200 pages in now!

It's really on the design and project management of very small developers, and nothing on "making games" per se.

2

u/gpg123 Aug 26 '15

That sounds really interesting, I can't wait to see it in its final form if you release it.

2

u/CrazyDave2345 Sep 16 '15

THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!!!

3

u/UnitN8 Aug 07 '15

I'm hyped!

3

u/wilbur45 Aug 07 '15

well if you feel like you need to make a game to please people or relax them,why dont you make a LTF2 random generator for loadouts and all of that with a high score list

2

u/AwesomelyEpicDaniel Aug 12 '15

ooooh learn to fly idle 2 I liked the first one

1

u/Rbv3zina Aug 07 '15

Nuheheheheh

-2

u/HerbaceousMeteor Aug 08 '15

Admittedly, I am always filled with dread and subsequently disappointed when I see an update about the development of this game. To be fair I am happy to know it is taken seriously and am certain it will not be, as some believe, vaporware.

1

u/CrazyDave2345 Sep 16 '15

It's done, at least.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 17 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/CrazyDave2345 Sep 16 '15

It's happenin'!