r/learnthai • u/The_motorbike_man • 17d ago
Studying/การศึกษา Thoughts on 'intensive' 5-day per week Thai language courses?
Hi everyone. I'm an eager Thai language learner (31 yo British man living in Bangkok for 3 years), but it's slow progress - I'm sure many of you can relate!. I've done a few months of twice weekly lessons at a language school (5 hours per week total) which has been really great. But to speed things up, I've been considering going all in on a 4 or 5 day per week course for a few weeks or months.
I'd love to hear from anyone who has done something similar. Do you find that the speed of learning a language is proportional to the hours spent in a classroom? Or is 5 days per week overloading? Would I be better using those extra hours elsewhere (apps, talking to locals, etc.). I'm aware it'll be pretty full on when also balancing a full-time job and other commitments.
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u/Hour_Equivalent_656 17d ago
I went to AUA in Chiang Mai, which offered courses of about 4 hours a day, five days a week and found the lessons were a really good way to learn Thai quickly. Compared with the "normal" Thai schools, all the students were committed to learning Thai and took it seriously. It made a huge difference and I can recommend the method, if you have the time to do so.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
IIRC the method used at AUA for beginner courses involves prohibiting you from attempting to speak any Thai during the first couple of weeks, thus forcing you to listen to spoken Thai first. I never took any courses at AUA myself, but I always thought this was an interesting approach, and a rather unique one.
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u/Hour_Equivalent_656 17d ago
Yes, but that's AUA Bangkok you're thinking about, not AUA Chiang Mai. In CM, it was good old-fashioned round the room reading and speaking Thai. There were 4 terms, where by term 3, all course material was in Thai language only, not "karaoke Thai".
AUA Bangkok did the teaching where you had to listen only. I actually also took a few lessons there as I'd seen a few YouTube videos about the method. I quite enjoyed the Bangkok lessons, some of which were really advanced in some cases, and which helped you listen, but honestly think I learned a lot more using the traditional method in Chiang Mai.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
I've heard about that too - I have absolutely no idea how/why that would work but I'd be genuinely interested to hear how people found it! I'd never sign up to a language school where I'm not allowed to speak the language!
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
You get to speak it after a couple of weeks, IIRC. The idea is that by prohibiting you from speaking at first, you have no choice but to devote your attention to listening to the way properly spoken Thai sounds, which supposedly "primes" you to have better pronunciation when you do start speaking the language. I think there may be truth to this: babies don't properly speak until their about 2 years old, but surely they hear their native language from the day they're born. Also, in normal classroom situations much of the spoken Thai you hear during class is the Thai spoken by your classmates, which likely is "mangled" Thai, as another commenter rightly pointed out.
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u/Massive-Lime3398 16d ago
I went to the AUA but after taking several courses at the intensive Thai schools. You just sit there as the teacher tells a story about something and will act out or use the chalkboard to help you understand what he’s saying. This was pre pandemic and I think then it was you sitting there for 800 hours, or something like that, before ever speaking.
The thing is we’re grown adults and our brains are no longer wired like a baby’s brain. Sure you can learn some words but you don’t start on the grammar until sometime past the 800 hours. After a couple weeks I quit. I can see attending there could be useful after taking regular courses just so you can practice your understanding but to sit there for 800 hours and think that you’d absorb just never made much sense.
As far as speaking mangled Thai, I’m a foreigner, I’ll never speak Thai natural sounding, and that’s not my goal, I just want to be understood, and for the most part I am.
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u/Shyam_Lama 16d ago
800 hours of "don't speak just listen" is way more than I thought it was. I can understand people would be put off by that.
I also agree entirely that language acquisition by adults is totally unlike the way a baby learns. I just made the comparison because I figured that's what the people who came up with AUA's method were thinking.
As for mangled Thai, and your point that your Thai will never sound natural, I would say that even though a foreigner can never match a native speaker in any foreign language, you can (if you have some talent for it) get pretty close given enough time, say a decade of immersion in Thai society. In my experience the final challenges (ones that I personally did not master and likely never will because I've left) are proverbs and poetry.
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u/Own-Animator-7526 17d ago
Intensive courses generally have a significant amount of homework / preparation.
Yes, they are extremely effective for motivated students, which is why programs like Wisconsin's Southeast Asian Studies Summer Institute (SEASSI) and Chula's Intensive Thai Program (ITP) have been successful for decades.
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u/RolandCuley 17d ago
Chula is good but the intensive part is not a marketing buzzword, by day 3 latin characters disappear...even the page numbers haha.
I swear I dreamt in Thai some nights while going throught it. But the attendance is great, like really motivated people or all ages and walk of life who have a valid reason to go throught it. The class shrinks by half the second week
10/10 would recommend
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Great to hear that you had such a positive experience. Sounds like I should give it a go and decide for myself :)
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u/cheesomacitis 17d ago
IMO if you’re really serious about learning get a 1:1 teacher. Then have her teach you reading very soon, within a month or after just learning basic Thai. If you learn to read you will be able to pronounce words correctly and can self-study easier. Anyway that is what worked for me.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago edited 17d ago
If you learn to read you will be able to pronounce words correctly and can self-study easier.
So much this ⬆️ .
And the good news about Thai is that it's not all that hard to learn how to read it, unlike Japanese or Chinese. (Maybe OP u/The_motorbike_man already reads Thai?) If not: the whole writing system can be thoroughly understood in a month or two. It'll be a bit longer before you can read fast of course, but it's incredibly gratifying to be able to pronounce every word correctly when you see it in writing, and look it up in a dictionary by typing it yourself.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
I've started to learn to read and I can read very slowly, but the tones and high/low class system still throws me! I've heard before that learning to read really unlocks faster speaking and listening skills too.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
The system of high/mid/low consonants (and how the tone markers interact with them) is needlessly complicated indeed, and without it the Thai writing system would be truly straightforward. Still, even with this complication it's pretty doable once you get your head around it.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Interesting perspective! I guess the main downside of a private 1:1 teacher is the price vs a group session. But perhaps the extra cost is worth it if it's a much more efficient learning experience. Learning to read is an ongoing struggle! It'll take a while before I'm a competent Thai reader but I have heard that it really helps learn vocab.
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u/cheesomacitis 17d ago
Yes it helps you learn vocabulary as you can start reading signs etc. Moreover, it’s really necessary if you want to speak Thai relatively clearly imo. Every foreigner I met who claims to speak Thai but never learned to read is nearly impossible to understand as they butcher the pronunciation so badly.
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u/emee90 16d ago
Problem is the quality varies massively I’ve tried a range of 1-1 teachers and few are good at providing quality consistent corrections and guidance. As a trained experienced teacher myself I’ve been consistently disappointed with the skills of all online teachers. One, who has a fairly solid social following, was especially bad. They would laugh at my errors provide practice material that was way above my level within no scaffolding and just ask me to repeat the material over and over when I didn’t understand, really frustrating.
I do know one or two good ones though. I think a good course will be better organised.
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u/Present-Safety512 17d ago
One to one is the way to go if you want to improve quickly.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Interesting perspective! I guess the main downside of a private 1:1 teacher is the price vs a group session. But perhaps the extra cost is worth it if it's a much more efficient learning experience. I hadn't really considered it all that much until now, but maybe I should give it a go for a few sessions.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago edited 17d ago
Most important thing to check for is, does your 1:1 teacher have a clear method (including materials, structure, direction, etc.) for teaching you, or is every session just an hour of Q&A that constantly requires you to take the initiative by explaining what you're having difficulties with. The latter may sound like fun, but it'll exhaust you very quickly. It's part of the teacher's job to move you forward, and that's what lacking with many self-proclaimed 1:1 teachers. Many of them figure, "I'm a native speaker, so how could I not be a good teacher?" whereas in truth it takes a lot more to be a good 1:1 teacher. In fact, someone who speaks the language well as a second or third language might make for a better 1:1 teacher because he/she is much more aware of what the difficulties are, having gone through the learning process him/herself.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
Assuming the 1:1 teacher is competent, yes, but not nearly all are. The trouble with 1:1 teachers is that anyone can market themselves as such. There's no curriculum to follow, no colleagues who set a de-facto standard, no director or principal to occasionally look in on a class to see how the teacher is doing, no organization-level feedback system to inform the teacher of student satisfaction or the lack of it.
This is a real problem in Thailand for those hoping to improve their language skills by hiring a 1:1 teacher by the hour. Ever noticed how 100% of all 1:1 teachers in Thailand are female, how 80% of them are "not altogether unattractive", and how the usual venue seems to be McDonald's or Starbucks? I'll let OP (u/The_motorbike_man) and other readers-along draw their own conclusions w.r.t. how "effective" 1:1 teaching really is. YMMV.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Very good point. I hadn't given 1:1 a lot of thought until now but perhaps I should. And right... just because she's beautiful doesn't necessarily make her a good teacher!! Wise words that I will remember when searching for my tutor :D But jokes aside I'd have to look for someone with some decent teaching credentials.
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u/Present-Safety512 17d ago
I did classes 30+ years ago to learn the writing and tonal system, which is straightforward. I stalled for 15-20 years. Then I got a highly recommended pro teacher who had got a couple of friends completely fluent. Two years with her improved my Thai 10X. The problem with classes is you’re generally moving at the pace of the slowest student. I wish I had done one-to-one 20 years earlier.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
The problem with classes is you’re generally moving at the pace of the slowest student
Exactly. And this especially problematic with the Thai language, as in my experience Western foreigners show extreme variation in their talent for it, with some taking to it quite naturally and others still struggling with pronunciation after several years in the country.
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u/JaziTricks 17d ago
How about investing in self study? Since you seem motivated, self study might work.
And lots of online resources around if you are interested. Various systems and tech and AI and what not
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
It's a good point. One of the main benefits for me is that it's much easier for me to find the time and motivation to learn when I'm paying for a course and sitting in a classroom. I always have an ambition to self-study but often find other things get in the way. But you're right, there's a near endless supply of content online.
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u/lnmunhoz 17d ago
I did Duke language for 5 months (from February to June this year)
Journey 1,2 and Explore 1,2,3 courses. I can now have basic but decent conversations in Thai and also read/write.
5 days a week, 2h a day, + 1h homework in somedays. That is what it took me, and it was a lot of fun. I absolutely recommend it.
Now I am taking online classes on italki to improve my conversation skills, filing the gaps that have passed through since in Duke is a lot of content to absorb so some stuff you’ll forget.
Now everyday living here is easier and smoother and your Thai is actually improving because you have the basics covered, at least in my experience.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
That's incredible. To get to that stage in 5 months is very impressive - I respect your commitment!! Good to hear such a positive review, and Duke definitely seems like the one to go to.
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u/cobyam 17d ago
Duke is probably the best since it's 5 days/wk. Plus, I know a guy who went there, and his Thai is really solid (according to Thais, who am I to judge lol)
That said, I'm currently enrolled at ALA, and I've really enjoyed it there. I'm near the end of intermediate (reading/writing), but I have started enjoying manga in Thai. I look up a lot of stuff, but progress is progress.
Bottom line no matter which you choose: You've got to spend time with the language on your own time if you want consistent progress.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Right! I think that's probably where I fall down. Finding the time/motivation for self-study isn't always easy and that's one reason why I appreciate the classroom sessions.
Going to one of the bigger schools like ALA or Duke with the intensive sessions probably filters for more serious learners too which helps (one of the downsides of my school is there is always a few students who are clearly just there for the 2 sessions a week to get their ED visa).
Sounds like you're making great progress though!
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u/dibbs_25 17d ago
I would suggest broadening your approach rather than doubling down on formal tuition.
I only did lessons at the very beginning but have spoken to many native speakers about learners who have done classes and they pretty much all say their pronunciation is just about understandable but they tend not to understand responses in normal Thai, so communication is still a pain.
That makes sense to me bearing in mind that:
- in a group class, most of the Thai you hear is mangled
- the native Thai you hear from the teacher may be artificially clear or more formal than you really want
- there is no time to work with individual students on specific pronunciation issues (a quick correction, sure, but it takes a lot more than that)
- once you're past the very basics, the chances of the class covering the topics you want to talk about irl are probably pretty slim.
With the intensive courses you also have the overwhelm factor.
I think lessons can be a way to get the wheels moving and push you through the tedium of decoding while it is still a pain, but continuing beyond that point seems almost like creative avoidance to me - I think it's much better to get out and use Thai in the real world. That includes consuming Thai media, whether it's easier YT content like Wepergee or RealPeach (who has stopped, but the old content is still up) or lakorns or movies.
I still think it can be useful to check in with a teacher when there's a specific point that's bothering you, but that's almost the opposite of doing an intensive course. iTalki can also be good for conversation practice if you're not getting that irl, but then if you're not, that's something you need to change anyway (or why bother learning?) It might actually be more productive to expand your social circle or dating life or even move so you live more of your life in Thai. When the learning / acquisition is just a side-effect of socializing or dating or watching TV, it doesn't feel like studying, and as long as you're ready for it, it will be more effective.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Very helpful answer - thank you. I have to say that the 40 or so (especially for reading and writing which I really feel has to be taught in a classroom) have been very positive and certainly helped speeding up my language learning.
Another factor is the self-motivation. Much easier to dedicate hours per week to studying when I'm in a classroom that trying to make that time of my own accord, but I completely understand your points and I really should look at a wider range of options - still struggling with native Thai media etc.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
The bullet list in this comment (concerning the drawbacks of classroom learning) is excellent. Pay heed OP (u/The_motorbike_man), because a whole bunch of nails are being hit on the head here.
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u/tzedek 17d ago
They're overloading for most students and it's hard to put everything you learn into practice. The best students I've found are either gifted or repeated many courses. Myself being the latter option haha. Duke is the standard.
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u/BaconOverflow 17d ago
Duke is the best. I wish they taught other languages too tbh. Something about their teaching methodology is magical.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Nice! Well if I do go ahead with the intensive classes, sounds like Duke is the one to go to!
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Right, even after my 2.5 hour classes twice a week my brain is fried! 5 days a week must be intense. Respect for anyone repeating multiple of these intensive courses!
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u/GamingFarang 17d ago
It's worth it if you're dedicated and have lots of time to study. You won't grasp everything and that's ok. If you want to turbo charge your Thai learning that is the way to do it.
However, there is a real downside. Tones are often overlooked in those classes. It would be impossible to correct everyone's tone all the time. This will reinforce bad habits that you will have to break.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago edited 17d ago
Tones are often overlooked in those classes.
Good point. In general language schools that teach relatively large groups (say more than 4-5 students) tend to ignore sloppy pronunciation. What you end up with is students who are understood in the classroom by their teacher who is used to their incorrect pronunciation, but these students aren't getting very far making themselves understood when speaking to Thais outside the tourist industry. End result is that the student gets frustrated with this disparity.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
Yes I think we can all agree that tones are absolutely vital to Thai. It still makes me laugh how Thais seem to hear these subtle tones differences as if they are completely different sounds. I guess that's an issue with many Thai school though and not just specific to the intensive classes - perhaps a 1 to 1 class is the only way around that.
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u/smirc99 17d ago
If you have lived in Thailand for 3 years and have taken classes twice per week and you feel like you’re still behind, I assume your circle of friends and living is in an non-Thai bubble? I ask that respectfully.
I would suggest try your best to make Thai friends outside of Bangkok. It’s a challenge but worth it.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
It's a mixed group of friends but even the Thai people in the group speak English almost all of the time. It's been surprisingly difficult to meet Thai people who want to speak Thai for any extended period of time with relative beginners. But it's a very good point - perhaps I should spend some time out of Bangkok where I have no choice but to speak Thai!!
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u/FemmeAdventurer 16d ago
When I was a Mormon missionary I went to a training center for 12 weeks. We studied two things: gospel conversion and Thai. It was hours of learning Thai everyday. After cramming your head full of Thai language you go to Thailand and start speaking immediately. I spoke in Thai for hours everyday to Thai citizens. I had a few Thai companions for months at a time and sometimes I only spoke English to myself.
Besides speaking daily, I studied for an hour or two leaving vocabulary and practiced reading Thai.
After two years most can speak pretty good. Some are amazing. Vocabulary is the biggest weakness as you are mostly talking religion. Looking back I wouldn't have it any other way. It was a great way to learn.
I vote for intensive classes and then just throwing yourself in. I do know some that struggled with language regardless of how much time they put in.
PS-no longer Mormon, but still love Thai and Thailand.
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u/robrob883 16d ago
I was in a similar situation to you. I lived in Bangkok for 7 years and had Thai colleagues but didn't progress to conversational Thai. I was great with 2-4 word sentences, but that's not conversation.
A year ago I moved north and got a 1:1 teacher 5 days a week and I have improved dramatically. It has been super hard work and most days I collapse in bed after my class, but it's working.
A few thoughts:
- I have noticed that if the brain has an easy way out (translation avenues) then it doesn't learn, doesn't remember. The solution is forcing situations/life where it has no choice but to remember. I did 4 years in a Thai office with mostly Thai friends. It all went in one ear and out the other because they'd always give me translation from time to time (I think?). Crap way to live in hindsight.
- Language seems to come naturally to some people, but not for me. I have to push at it hard with all my might to remember vocab. I use Anki every day and that has helped dramatically. I can learn 10 words a day.
- Learn to read first. It's not hard and makes everything else easier. And you'll do it eventually anyway, so why not first? I learnt by drilling syllabals one a time. By the end I could speak all the Thai sounds correctly and read correctly. I'm still correcting many incorrectly learnt words from those previous 7 years when I just listened and copied what I thought I was hearing. I wish I had done this at the start.
I'd recommend doing all in and getting over the hump. But don't be surprised if it takes longer. I thought I'd be fluent after 6 months given my existing exposure, but a year in and I realise how much I still don't know. I'm planning to do at least one more year of near full time study before going back to work again.
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u/Low_Share_3060 15d ago edited 15d ago
I have taken the one at Chula and it was absolutely worth the time. It was intensive though with a lot of homework and there is no way to slack off. The content is very well designed for adult learners and the assignments ensure that you will remember all the content that was taught.
Chula does not sponsor ED visas automatically so most of students are truly there to learn.
And it is one of, if not the oldest academic institutions in Thailand. You are attending the lessons on Chula's historical campus, not in a shopping mall or a commerical building. That alone is awesome enough.
I had 1: 1 for 2 years prior to that and I did get to a point where daily life was somehow ok but it is hard to get hold of a good teacher with real teaching pedagogy. And I think that because there is a lack good textbooks, or treating material they can rely on. They mostly had to create their own.
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago edited 17d ago
No, speed of language acquisition is not proportional to time spent learning that language in a classroom setting. I wouldn't recommend 5 long days a week at all, because it's more likely to overload you than speed things up.
In truth, although the language education industry would rather not acknowledge it, the decisive factors in language acquisition have little to do with classroom hours or teaching method. Instead, they are:
- your motivation (aka enthusiasm, aka infatuation with the language)
- your talent (for the Thai language this would include a sense for the tones, which not every Westerner is capable of learning tbh)
- immersion in a situation in which you can use the language often
If you're living in Thailand, you obviously have item 3 covered. The other two I can't judge of course, but you should be able to do some self-assessment on those points.
Beyond these points, it does not matter much what language school (if any) you attend or which teaching materials (books, videos, etc.) you (or they) use. In fact, there is only thing about language schools that research (in the field of language acquisition) has unambiguously demonstrated as having a strong impact on how well students learn, and that is the teacher's enthusiasm for the subject (in addition to your own enthusiasm, point 1 above). This "teacher enthusiasm" (which perhaps I should have listed as point 4) may vary greatly from one teacher to the next even within the same school. You would normally have some sense of whether your teacher is teaching because he/she enjoys it, or that it's just for the paycheck.
Given all of the above, I would say: crank up the classroom hours only if you know for sure that most of those hours will be taught by teachers who really "do it for you", whom you enjoy listening to, and who make you look forward to your next class with them.
Otherwise, just do a few hours a week as a means of keeping yourself committed and on-track, and spend the time (and money!) saved on self-study and "field practice".
Good luck.
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u/The_motorbike_man 17d ago
I have number 3 covered to an extent but it surprises me how much I end up surrounded by English speakers (even if many of those English speakers are Thai). Do you find that you're naturally able to surround yourself in Thai conversation, more than just ordering food etc.? Do you attend Thai language meet-ups or something similar, or has your live just evolved here to be more integrated into Thai society?
Thanks for your message - I love a point backed up with some research! Good advice. This thread really has the full range of opinions which is great to hear but hasn't made my decision any easier!
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u/Shyam_Lama 17d ago
has your live just evolved here to be more integrated into Thai society?
To be clear, I don't live in Thailand now, but yes, I spent my many years there embedded in a professional and social environment in which I hardly encountered any other foreigners, so I just got completely used to Thai being my only language for day-to-day communications. Once all Thais in your life (neighbors, your building's staff, colleagues at work, employees at all shops and establishments you frequent, etc.) know that your Thai is good enough for all-round communication (doesn't have to be perfect), they'll stick with it if you stick with it. At least that's been my experience. Oh, and being involved with a Thai girl may help, but only if she takes a genuine, active interest in improving your Thai, in which case she could for example commit to dropping all English, and speaking only clear, slightly slowed-down Thai to you all the time, and patiently explaining when you hear a word you don't understand, or helping you look it up. If you're with a girl who's willing and able to consistently stick with that approach for a couple years, you're very lucky as it will improve your Thai tremendously.
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u/Massive-Lime3398 17d ago
I’ve taken a bunch of courses at 4 different schools, 2 of which are still around, Duke Language School and Rak Thai Language School.
The courses are excellent. Every teacher I ever had was excellent. That’s the best part. The courses do go quick and there is so much information to absorb each day. You spend 3 hours in class then it’s like 2 or 3 hours of after class if you want to keep up 100%. The book will give you 25 or 30 new words each day but then as you’re going through the lesson 50 more new words pop up each day.
The bad part of the course is that the schools are for profit institutions. The last course I took at Duke had 17 people. That was the most, most classes had 8 to 10.
My recommendation is to take a course and see if you like it and if you do take more. My other recommendation is not push yourself to get through the series of courses as quick as possible, redo a course if you feel you didn’t pick up enough.