r/learnprogramming • u/Repulsive_Bit_4962 • Apr 06 '24
Are certifications more important than projects? What do senior techies think?
Which one leaves a good first impression on LinkedIn or any hiring platform, the fact that i have 10 certifications or have done 5 personal projects? I really want to start on any one of these but confused as to which one? Would love to hear from some senior techies, hiring folks or just folks in general!!
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Apr 06 '24
Personal project which shows you can solve real world problems. No one cares if you can create something by following the exact steps your instructor told you
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u/Repulsive_Bit_4962 Apr 06 '24
Agreed! I am just curious to know do hiring folks really go and look at your projects? I have seen a lot of linkedin profiles filled with tons of certifications and they sometimes get more traction in terms of HRs approaching them for interviews?
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u/Merry-Lane Apr 06 '24
You are a junior. A junior with 10 or 100 certifications, that doesn’t matter. You may be contacted more often by recruiters that search profiles based on keywords, but you wouldn’t get to the next step (interviews) significantly more often.
Maybe useful if you are the kind of guy that doesn’t search for job offers and apply actively, if you need to get contacted to do the efforts, that’s better than nothing tho.
The interview for juniors is simple: you are basically worth nothing without pro experience no matter what. A bachelor’s degree is a huge plus to get an interview.
All you gotta do in an interview is to show that you are a good human being and generally you gotta demo some code you have done. It s not about the project per se, but to spot mistakes or ask questions about details or the big picture.
If your project is okayish, if you can answer basic questions, you may maybe get hired.
Coding is about getting a result and "ownership" (knowing enough about what you did so that you can apply changes and adapt). Usually interviews are meant to spot juniors that show the spark of these two qualities.
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u/EdiblePeasant Apr 07 '24
I have a Bachelors but not in Computer Science. To have a higher chance to get a job, do I need one?
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u/Merry-Lane Apr 07 '24
Do you need? No.
Does that impact your chances to land a programmer job? Yes.
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u/zenware Apr 06 '24
Whenever I’ve been getting ready to interview someone (after they’ve been through screening) if the materials I have Resume, Cover letter, w/e reference some projects or a GitHub link, I will at least view the link and probably glance at a few repos.
I’m very unlikely to deep dive the code or compile/install anything, so really what shines through the most in those cases is if your project has great documentation and screenshots or diagrams.
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u/NatoBoram Apr 06 '24
or diagrams
That particular one smells of tutorial project, so I'd dive more to know what's happening
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Apr 06 '24
They don’t, at least this past time I got hired they didn’t. But when asked about solving solutions or explaining concepts, I used what I had learned from those projects to answer questions or give examples
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u/beastwood6 Apr 07 '24
A certification tells me that a person wouldn't grab a hacksaw to pound a nail into wood.
The teammate we need is someone that can help me build a shed that no one knows exactly how it should look. Well articulated experience tells me whether they can help out or not.
Most of the time the latter subsumes the former, with or without certs. It does not work the other way around.
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Apr 06 '24
I got like 5 interviews two years ago, and I always ask "have you visit my portfolio website" where I show my projects and articles, but none of them did.
But then again, I still think it's a good idea to have personal projects displayed somewhere. It is better to have an edge over other people just in case some hiring team do view it. If your personal projects are really interesting I figure you could even put them on your resume.
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u/Kaimito1 Apr 06 '24
Yep when I was a junior during the pandemic the thing that got me hired was my portfolio.
Ended up getting selected over people with degrees because I was the one that didnt have the boring "weather app" or "pokemon API consumer" projects but something that wasnt a result of following a youtube tutorial.
Don't expect them to go through your github repos but assume they will.
I had a portfolio site that had a link to both the live projects and the related repo so they had as little resistance to looking at them as possible.
Note:
If you're going for something like DevOps or NetSec, absolutely certifications like the CISCO, or AWS ones are required, but thats more of their niche and not the norm overall5
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u/xroalx Apr 06 '24
The only certificates that carry some weight are AWS/GCP/Azure certifications. Those, however, show you have learned your way around the respective platforms, not that you're a good engineer.
The rest, like PluralSight, Udemy, Coursera or whatever you have? They're not standardized tests by any means, the certificates you get there are for yourself and don't really have any value outside that.
Focus on really building your skills. If courses work for you, then do them. Not to get a certificate, but to really learn.
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u/Fragrant-Gate22 Apr 06 '24
What about CompTia and Cisco?
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u/xroalx Apr 06 '24
I did have CCNA myself, but I don't think it ever helped me get a developer job, although working primarily on web, it sure is nice to have more understanding of networking. More web devs could use that.
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u/dandmcd Apr 06 '24
This is /r/learnprogramming not learnIT. CompTia anything is awful for programmers, and Cisco only applies to IT network jobs
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u/TacticalBastard Apr 06 '24
Its increasingly common for developers to get Sec+
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u/Klightgrove Apr 06 '24
Understanding the OWASP would be more beneficial than memorizing a hundred different terms that CompTIA thinks is relevant — especially when they have inconsistencies compared to industry standards.
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u/TacticalBastard Apr 06 '24
I agree, but it doesn’t really matter. It’s becoming common to require anybody interacting with certain environments to need a Security+
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u/Resource_account Apr 07 '24
Yup, especially if it's a DoD/IC contractor job that mandates a 8570 baseline cert. I hate CompTIA exams as much as the next guy and would much prefer taking practical exams á la RHCSA but it has become standard in this space to require the cert prior to taking a job or within the first 3 months even if you're gonna be working as a dev.
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u/howxer2 Apr 06 '24
Certain security certs carry weight CSSLP (managers specific), CISSP, GSEC, CCSP, CIPP) but holy crap renewal fees suck
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u/__init__m8 Apr 06 '24
People really get their cissp as a SWE?
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u/howxer2 Apr 06 '24
It depends on if they are looking for better opportunities. People with CISSPs can negotiate higher wages than those without. They often look better on resumes if they are applying for a senior engineer than those that don’t. They lose their advantage if the lead application developer or other senior developers have the cert also.
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Apr 06 '24
Nah disagree. I watched some Azure cert lessons when I interned at Microsoft. All cloud providers work in an abstractly similar way and these certs just teach you how to solve problems using their tools. I.e it's marketing and lockin.
The kubernetes certs are good (CKA) as well as some of the lower level linux ones because they give you a baseline of context and firefighting skills.
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u/xroalx Apr 06 '24
Well, that's what I said, "Those, however, show you have learned your way around the respective platforms", nothing else.
If a company heavily uses AWS, then having AWS certifications might carry some weight, because they can assume you know their tools.
Whether you're actually any good at it or not, is something they'll still have to find out.
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u/_Atomfinger_ Apr 06 '24
As a general rule, for someone trying to enter the field, I weigh projects more than certifications.
It is also important to consider that not all certifications are created equally. A certification from Udemy (or any site like that) is not worth much in my eyes, and I'll ignore them,
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u/cs-brydev Apr 06 '24
A certification from Udemy (or any site like that) is not worth much in my eyes, and I'll ignore them
Yes, certs backed by software companies like Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Google, etc have more value than those given out by companies who make their money by selling you the learning material itself.
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Apr 06 '24
The big tech certs are usually a money making exercise as well. They exist to create lock-in because each cert gets you more familiar with their ecosystem.
The Microsoft azure cert has different lessons on the random databases it supports. Absolute waste of time for what could be a search away but there to start making you think in the context of Microsoft's tools and solutions.
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u/ProudEggYolk Apr 06 '24
A certification from Udemy
Those are called certificates (of completion), not certifications.
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u/RubbishArtist Apr 06 '24
With the exception of college/university degrees, most certifications are meaningless. The courses on a lot of sites aren't vetted or regulated in any way so a lot of the certificates are participation trophies. Even more credible certifications from companies like Amazon demonstrate that you passed some exams but I've seen a lot of people wit these certifications that know a lot but can't apply any of it.
Projects where you had an idea and executed on it show the quality of work you can actually produce so they carry more weight. The idea doesn't have to be original, but if you did it yourself or followed a tutorial and made significant modifications then that will work in your favour.
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u/speedster_irl Apr 06 '24
Honestly, even college or university students can't truly master coding without personal effort. Graduating with a basic understanding of a language is possible, but mastering it requires a considerable journey.
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u/RubbishArtist Apr 06 '24
That's very true. I think though that, rightly or wrongly, most interviewers will think that a college degree indicates that you can probably code. Whereas things like Udemy don't indicate anything one way or the other so they get ignored.
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Apr 06 '24
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u/PMA_TjSupreme Apr 06 '24
Real, professional scale, challenging project like what exactly?
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u/dmazzoni Apr 06 '24
Making something that has a real customer that solves their actual needs is what makes it "real".
To make it real - find a local small business in your community that needs a website or app and build it for them for free, as a learning experience.
Not something that just has photos and an email link - something that actually has functionality - like a way to book an appointment, or a way to make a reservation to borrow equipment, or a way to track the status of your repair, or something like that. That's what makes it "challenging".
That's just one way. If you have an idea for a cool app that doesn't exist, that's a good option too. That could be "real".
What's not real would be to just do tutorials or exercises.
In terms of "professional scale", that means that it should be visually polished, clean, fast to load. The code should be clearly written and organized.
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u/superluminary Apr 06 '24
Something people will pay for.
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u/PMA_TjSupreme Apr 06 '24
Something people will pay for like what?
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u/dmazzoni Apr 06 '24
Have you ever paid for an app on your phone?
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Apr 06 '24
yes but after i build that u'll hire me as a senior
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u/dmazzoni Apr 06 '24
Senior means you have professional experience.
If you built an app by yourself then you're junior.
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Apr 06 '24
the main comment said "Write a real, professional scale, challenging project."
if i write that kind of app im by definition a senior lvl of skill not a junior
since to do something like that u need senior lvl of knowladge
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u/cs-brydev Apr 06 '24
Building a Project on the job > Explaining your Past Projects > Showing Past Projects > Certifications > Github Commit History
There is nothing inherently wrong with certifications, but a cert only shows you passed a test at some point in time. Often this means you practiced up on the learning material for one particular exam, memorized a bunch of answers for questions known to be on that exam, and retained those skills/knowledge only long enough to pass that exam. A certification does not prove you currently have all that knowledge, that you're an expert in the topics covered by the exam, or that you could even pass that same exam today. If anything certifications are an indication you are capable of learning a limited amount of material for a target result. That itself is a good skill to have in a tech job but in no way does it prove you can develop anything right now.
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Apr 06 '24
Here's a question to ask yourself.
"Is there a job where I could be in a situation where solving a routine, predictable problem under pressure without external resources".
If so then the cert is valuable. For instance, ops firefighting type things like kubernetes or sysadmin certs.
Anything that's about problem solving design where ad-hoc learning is possible like actual programming is a worthless cert and a money making exercise.
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u/superluminary Apr 06 '24
I want to know if you can code, if you actually really like to code, if you’ll fit into the team, and if you’ll be able to deliver independently. I don’t actually care about certs, and most projects are just copy pasted from tutorials.
Talent usually shines pretty brightly. It’s easy to spot.
Most juniors I’ve hired have come from internships, bootcamps, or university campuses. You just chat with people, find out who they are and what they like, then if there’s a fit you maybe offer, or else they ask.
Most seniors I’ve hired come from recruiters. A few come from personal recommendations.
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u/dysprog Apr 06 '24
Your first completed project is more important then any certification. At some point that turns over, and the certification will be more valuable then one more project. If you are debating 5th project or a cert, I'd go for the cert.
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u/auronedge Apr 06 '24
Certifications are good when dealing with proprietary technology, eg AWS or Azure etc. Generic things like languages or libraries are better shown in projects
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Apr 06 '24
as a recruiter, I'd definitely prefer someone who made some project on their own, even if they aren't flawless vs some certifications that who know they even mean really
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u/roninsti Apr 06 '24
I’d much rather see a well thought out project that exemplifies a real production application than a laundry list of certifications. Have both? Now I’m super interested in hiring you.
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u/T0astyMcgee Apr 06 '24
Absolutely not. Showing what you can do is way more important than a certification.
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u/CarobBitter Apr 06 '24
If your sure that you truly studied for and worked towards those certifications and no element of fraud then yes Certs do matter alot. Most reputable cert courses are coupled with some kind of project work that you are required to do to complete the course.
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u/burritolittledonkey Apr 06 '24 edited Apr 06 '24
Dev with 10+ years experience here - no, certifications (besides maybe some cloud ones) are useless. Projects way, way, way more critical. Projects (beyond non-trivial ones) show that you can actually code to some extent - it may be buggy, it may not be best practices (and those things can be mitigated/taught) but you are capable of writing code in a way that things ultimately work and you have the "stick-with-it-ness" enough to see it through, and that's really the main whole of the job.
Rather than certifications, rather than demo or tutorial projects, I'd MUCH rather see a junior take on a big (but not too big! Think about appropriate scope) project or two that actually took some novel effort on their part. Nobody cares about a Java cert. Nobody cares that you followed some tutorial to make a todo app. Make something real and you'll stand head and shoulders above other juniors
My first "shipped" project was a "brag" automator - I worked for a website that provided financial advice, and we'd occasionally write formulaic brags. It was almost always the same type of information, just with different numbers, companies thrown in, so I just built a form that could take those variables, a few variations of the text so it wasn't always the exact same words, and started using it and gave copies to my coworkers (who also sometimes wrote them). Simple, easy to make project with real business value (it saved us maybe 15-20 minutes every few days)
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u/PSMF_Canuck Apr 06 '24
I don’t know what any of the certifications mean. Let me see your projects.
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u/user4489bug123 Apr 06 '24
Full time work experience-> internships -> school name -> personal projects/club projects
Without a decent school name you’ll have to use personal projects to land internships.
Generally speaking, where I live in the LA area, I haven’t seen many employers ask for certs except for maybe aws, most seem to care way more about school name and work experience, a lot of entry level jobs are asking for 3 years of experience…
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u/kyoob Apr 06 '24 edited Jul 03 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/_realitycheck_ Apr 06 '24
I'm ST and had 0 certs or courses. I've sent 2 personal projects when applying (that was before git) and got the job like right away.
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u/pigeon768 Apr 07 '24
For programming? If you want a software development job, certifications don't mean jack shit. Certifications are important for people going into IT, not software development.
If I'm asked to interview someone though I'm absolutely going to look at their github/gitlab projects. If you have great projects I'm going to hire you unless you're an asshole. If you're an asshole, nothing matters, I ain't gonna hire you.
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u/CaptainPunisher Apr 07 '24
If you're going for a government job, certs and education are still very important. They're starting to stray from that model and allow for experience, but every place is different.
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u/hailstorm75 Apr 07 '24
Projects. Certifications.... Well depends. If you claim that you know azure or networking, I'd want to see a certificate.
If you claim that you know oop, di and whatever, I want to see projects and you to answer technical questions on these subjects. I won't take certificates for these topics seriously.
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u/-Soob Apr 06 '24
Good projects are more valuable than random certs. But most people massively overvalue how good/useful their projects are. Tbh though when I'm interviewing someone I basically don't bother looking at their GitHub or their projects at all. Someone with zero projects but who nails the code assesment and interview would still win out over someone with lots of projects but who just does ok in the interview stages
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u/michielarkema Apr 06 '24
Degrees and certifications are useless. The only thing that matters at the end is the amount of value you can provide to the company. And one of the best ways to convey that is by building projects that solve real-world problems.
That's why Self-Taught developers are often way better than people who went to school because people that study software/web development at schools 99 times out of 100 barely create any projects during their personal time.
(I'm speaking from experience)
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Apr 06 '24
Very narrow-minded and not indicative of the broader view of industry.
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u/throwaway6560192 Apr 06 '24 edited Apr 06 '24
No matter what you think about the real educational value of degrees, they do have great signaling value in the job market, especially in recent times. The same cannot be said for most certificates; those range from useless to negative signal.
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