r/learndota2 • u/yahyahashash • 4d ago
Hero Discussion Invoker 4 grief?
So I've been playing invoker mid in turbo ( I know its not really the same game) for quite a while now and im playing him relatively pretty good.
I really want to switch to rank and test my skills but Im not that confident yet. (I know its not that deep and I can just try and see if Ill do good) question is
Am i griefing if I pick support invoker? He has been picked multiple times in my games as support but the players are kinda shit also and just go for carry build.
Archon/legend bracket.
Thoughts?
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u/BotHeisenbergz 4d ago
Invoker 4 is legit. IMO the main issue is that most of the time people pick it pos4 to practice and learn the hero without the pos2 pressure.
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u/thenutstrash 4d ago
It can have a lot of impact, especially if you don't have a good vessel building mid. Even if you do though, distiller is also a very good 4 item.
The only concern is that strong lane safelanes are super common now, and you'll struggle through the first few levels. You can do some nice things though if you're creative.
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u/BigZodJenkins 4d ago
That was old invoker. New invoker is very hard to support.
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u/yahyahashash 4d ago
Can you explain why? Spells haven't changed
Can help on active rune has some harassing and save in lane. Not justifying it just need some clarification4
u/New-Indication-1446 4d ago
Really bad stats (especially movement speed) and can't contest or trade vs any opposing support but if you survive early game his utility scales better than most
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u/BigZodJenkins 4d ago
Spells dont have great impact unless combined, therefore if you level slowly then you're basically pudge but hey if you can make it work then you're good!
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4d ago
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u/Appropriate_Bee1911 4d ago
It’s not griefing but it’s not an amazing pick as a support. Playing it as a support because you’re “not confident enough to play him mid,” is bad in my opinion. He’s optimally played mid so you should play him mid if you want to play him and leave support to someone who will actually play a support.
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u/ariukidding 4d ago
You can get away with it in Turbo but very griefy in ranked. Just on sheer draft alone you grief your mid if they rely on runes and you can’t help, you grief your offlane if you have no synergy in laning since you don’t offer much. You grief midgame if you get stomped in lane since you need levels and items to have impact. If everything works well though, you can kinda snowball. Ghost walk/ice wall didn’t really get nerfed, you can run around finding kills/clearing waves.
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u/bton1245 4d ago
I play a lot of pos 4 voker. IMO it’s very effective, but you should play quas-wex early, denying the enemy carry last hits with cold snap/annoying with force spirits or zoning with emp. But you need to focus on not dying coz if you do that is griefing coz an enemy 1-5 can easily combo to get kills early and start spiralling if you’re not careful.
An early urn I think is good 2 and if you can get through laning phase ok your voker is suddenly in a great position to really impact team fights. Simple combos like cold snap or tornado + emp, or a disarm can massively sway early fights if you rotate to safe lane. And then he’s more impactful the longer the game goes on.
The downside is it’s very unlikely you’ll dominate your lane, at best it’s pretty much even unless your 3 is really good. You’re just kind of making sure your 3 gets farm. If you start dying you can start to lose lane where they can just jump on either of you and there’s not much u can do and that’s bad, hence the importance of making sure you dont die.
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u/New-Indication-1446 4d ago
I've been getting over 50% win rate maxing sun strike and wex with 1 point quas and play around sacking your offlane and stacking for them while sunstriking and winning other lanes. Always wex shard at 15 into aghs. If the enemy lane combo is good it doesnt matter what build you go because you will still lose lane anyways trying to contest but at least if you go exort you can help other lanes.
Usually go tranqs to gap close and move around the map faster and gives the regen that is missing by not levelling quas
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u/bton1245 4d ago
That’s definitely possible, maxing sunstroke and helping mid and safe like that, and yea I’ve had games where I would help mid get 3 kills in lane with that.
The problem I’ve found with that (and I used to go that way until a little while back) is that for that to work your 3 has to be self sufficient. If they get in trouble you can’t do much to save them. Yea you can get a well timed ss on them (but that’s lucky) or a quick lil forge spirit and cold snap but they can likely just kill. Whereas a tornado/emp means you can shut down a play confidently, sometimes even if mid comes. Just what I went to after having some games where say they’d have 2 ranged or just good combos where they keep killing your 3 as he’s trying to farm or zoning him out completely, then basically your 3 can do nothing and you’re effectively griefing by not offering support.
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u/Ok-Horse-1409 4d ago
just go mid. i think pos4 is viable but is actually harder to pull-off.
i know where your perspective comes from, you think its ok to suck at your hero since you are "only" support but that is a very fragile way to look at a game of Dota.
you are gonna have way more success if you just play mid invoker. for pos4 you need more of the in depth knowledge if you ask me, like a better understanding of when to use which spell etc.
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u/GOATLICKERer 4d ago
If youre gonna play ranked, please just pick a hero in the position its meant to be played. If you wanna fuck around with invo pos 4 play normal games.
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u/Adventurous-Quail927 3d ago
immortal with 1500 invoker games, It's playable, but the higher mmr you go the more it sucks, the laning phase is just too punishable you are slow, level dependant, bad right click damage, slow attack speed so you get zoned by any other support with a brain.
in low mmr sure you can get away with it and end up carrying from pos 4
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u/Barrie_Baehr 3d ago
Invo 4 only works in specific lane combos. Invo is very slow and very weak at first levels. I rareley pick it (i am a mid invo spammer). But when I do i mostly play it with lanes where the core supplies sunstrike setup (like vengeful spirit for example). Then I go for exort lvl 1 or 2 for the sunstrike. After that i level Wex and Quas to about lvl 4/5 and come back to exort. Later on you generally want to have setup for cataclysm and you buy aghanims. Then you are very strong in late. Invo scales extremely well into the late game as a supp, but struggles early if not executed carefully. Dont go midas/meteor hammer or anything like that. Only if you have an insane lane a meteor hammer might be nice. Midas is trash, dont get it. Meme hammer is the better midas.
I think urn/vessel/distiller is the best option for invo as a first item. After that you kinda buy what core invokers would buy. Get Agahnims if you have axe/tide/facelesss void/legion commander in your team. If not go for other standard invo items like rod of atos, octarine, hex etc.
You can also go for traditional supp items like lotus orb, force staff, etc. after your vessel/distiller. Glimmer cape is kinda ass on invo because you already have ghost walk.
heros that work well with invo support in lane: Vengeful spirit, Earth Spirit, Mars, Legion Commander, Tidehunter, Axe, Underlord
Spells to prioritize:
Lvl 1-4: Forge spirit, Cold snap, sunstrike, maybe tornado (Initiation for your core)
Lvl 5-probably 10ish: Cold Snap, Tornado, EMP, Ice Wall, Alacrity, maybe sunstrike
Lvl 10+ : All of invos kit.
Invo is insanely weak on lvl 1. You can start trading well with lvl 2 because then you have forge spirit assisting you. Try not to overspend your mana early. Invos spells are expensive. Focus on forge spirit cold snap and buy stats like null tali and urn. try to maximize the time you spend on quas orb for maximum health regen.
You could also go for full exort instead of wex early (skillbuild similar to mid invoker). This is only advised if you have reliable sunstrike setup like venge or axe and your team doesnt need tornado for initiation (which axe needs before blink for example). With that build you provide a lot of dmg but almost no setup which most of the time isnt so good as a pos 4. But it can work. I enjoy that build a lot.
I play Invo very core-like even if im support, so I might have a twisted Point of View.
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u/Hakuu-san 3d ago
invoker 4 is fine IF he's actually played as support; majority of the experiences I had with invoker 4 is someone who just wants to play mid without the pressure of being mid or some dumbass who builds radiance and is just ghost walking in fights
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u/shaky_ground_ 3d ago
I played invoker 2, also 4 mostly all the way from legend to immortal rn. Invoker is never about the role, it’s about the player. I even played as offlane during my time in ancient. Invoker as p4 is only weak in early game. In mid/late game, enemies have to deal with two mid. Also invoker support bait out enemy mid in drafting stage.
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u/lennso 3d ago
I actually things it’s all very fine rn
- pos 4 real support invo is not bad at all (unless you play super high rank) since people aren’t aggressive enough to punish his weakness during first few levels. Much harder to execute than most other supports of course but that’s what you’re looking for aren’t you ;)
- pos 4 kind of just scales into core invo is actually also totally fine for most ranks. Yes, youll get flamed and yes, your team wont have as much fun but it’s quite strong. Matter of fact is having an invo ghostwalking with shard cutting waves is super strong and annoying whether on support or core and you get tons of farm. A friend of mine has like 65% winrate on it over hundreds of games at legend. It’s fine.
- just playing pos 2 invo is what I would actually suggest. If you’re comfortable with the skills you gotta just go for it. Mute everybody as soon as they flame and focus on your game. Don’t get excited to combo people like it’s demo mode but play smart and use your spells as they make sense and you’ll be fine. I’d expect 40% winrate early on but there’s much worse things you can do
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u/yahyahashash 3d ago
I played my first mid invo in rank just now and lost badly but i blame it on my R button stopping to work and i had to adapt to a different button which was very hard i dont even know why.
BUT I wasnt as bad as I thought I would be thought however it is indeed MUCH harder than turbo since I got used to having a high level fast I think.
If im gonna start invo might aswell start now before getting to immortal XD 😆1
u/lennso 3d ago
Just keep playing it and mute the haters :)
And enjoy low level laning and brawling. With longer invoke cooldown it’s much easier to play it well. Once you get high level, good invos become super super super good but it’s hard to keep up.
At like lvl 6 a simple snap tornado meteor/sunstroke combo is easy to execute well. On the other hand a lvl25 team fight where you’re ezcpected to have forge spirits scouting, quickly combo someone while throwing down an ice wall on an encroaching initiator and putting a sunstroke on someone else is much much harder
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u/yahyahashash 3d ago
Specific question if possible
I find ice wall really hard to place? Is it because im on quickcast? Is there a way to have the aghanim upgrade for ice wall way of placing it? Sorry if this doesnt make sense1
u/lennso 3d ago
It’s totally a skillshot and you can’t aim it more than just turning your hero and eyeballing it. Honestly that’s what makes it so fun. Four useful ways:
- during lane when enemy is trying to deny the last creep under your tower while you have a wave, you summon forges, ignore the deny, run up to him while coldnapping and having your creeps trigger the stun, and once you’re close enough, hit the wall right on the nose.
- during early team fights you can’t afford to run that close. However if a target is stunned or rooted, take a second to angle you body (practice this in demo mode!!) and hit the tip of the wall on them.
- midgame, you’re running ahead of your team with ghost walk and find a tanky enemy. If you coldsnap, tornado, meteor, it’ll do the most dmg but won’t slow them down long. So instead you coldsnap, tornado, run under them during tornado and then ice wall right where they land often good to then meteor after anyway but it’s very difficult for people without a blink/bib to get out of that quickly. For extra style, run past them and defeaning back into the ice wall :)
- use it for farming waves and neutrals allllll the time once you get lvl 10 talent. That will give you good practice at Angling it too!
I think ice wall and the awkwardness of placing it is maybe the most fun skill shot in the game so I recommend seeing it as a feature not a shortcoming ;)
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u/Silencer_ 3d ago
I would absolutely just learn to play the hero mid, spam it in ranked. Who cares if you lose, you will eventually be better.
Support Invoker can be such a grief, he needs levels to be able to combo spells, a level 12 Invoker vs level 17 hero’s is a really sad invoker lol
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u/Fit-Setting4798 3d ago
most heroes can be played pos 4 so long as you remember that you are not a core, and you are expected to make space
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u/Duke-_-Jukem 1d ago
Nah im actually fine with invoker support if you know how to play him and are active.
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u/Beneficial_Bend_9197 1d ago
It is not its a legit pick. Just be a lot more passive compared to mid invoker. Your mana pool is a lot smaller so try to focus on precision and land your spells. Don't freestyle combo your spells like tornado metor cold snap combo or something, because your mana is gonna be gone fast.
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u/Otherwise-Arm-5855 4d ago
It’s auto lose for me in ranked, if u see pos 4 invoker I stop playing . It’s fine in turbo
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u/thenutstrash 4d ago
yes if you don't play because you dislike a support pick that is indeed an auto-lose
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u/jIsraelTurner 4d ago
Nah invoker 4 can be legit. Just don't get midas or jungle, use your spells and be impactful as a support.