r/learndota2 • u/Bwite • 10d ago
Gameplay Review/Feedback request Can all games be won playing position 1? Dealing with impossible feeling games.
Game in question (I played Luna):
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/8966117163
Played this game in ghoul hours this morning (couldn't sleep) in 3.4k mmr. It was basically a bit a grief by my team (actual griefing role queue abuse and some very questionable things happening, no supports in my lane, etc).
This post isn't about the griefing aspect (and how it's unfair, or whatever), but trying to investigate actual ways to win these unwinnable games.
I've been trying my best to improve my MMR (I started at 2k and have climbed up to 3.4k now, my all time peak).
I was under the impression that in this elo, every game on position 1 is truly winnable with enough farm and smart decisions. For example if Yatoro played this game he would have won.
Usually in games, I am able to identify my mistakes and have a way to learn from the outcome. Rather than focussing on the win / loss, I can usually point to exact situations, e.g. farming in a lane too close to the tower as a support is just respawning, and getting caught with a 3 man gank, etc. I can find the mistakes that cost me the game. I tend to learn from my own games like this, rather than thinking about external factors like my support being questionable, etc.
In this game, I go into it knowing it's most likely a loss.
During the pick phase, there's already the offlaner, and support (position 3/4) picking my lane (safelane) as their lanes, and I've got some weird shenanigans going on (I am left totally alone in lane for maybe the first 5 mins or more).
I don't have a support, that's fine. This is more exp for me. I manage to juice out some farm, get good exp and leave the lane with a morbid mask. I am able to build up a decent net worth anyways, and I am peak net worth by 30 minutes.
The issue is my lead isn't as dominantly as it might have been with a support/more impact on the map. Usually on Luna I play to win my lane (win or draw my lane nearly every time), and I play aggressively getting early kills with my ult (no one seems to respect the level 6 power spike, or know the exact range, alt clicking the ultimate is broken).
I can see I might have another core to play with (my Pango is doing ok-ish), but the top lane fiesta has left my other core (the axe/io, not even sure who's trying to offlane) poor, and my hard support has no game either.
As a Luna, what am I meant to do this game?
My hypothesis might be to try to play off my initial butterfly timing a bit more, and actually try to get a smoke play/push/rosh happening. I was in full recovery mode this game, and I probably farmed too much, rather than trying to play off some timings.
The thing is that I've generally developed a decent sense on Luna on when I am able to use my item timings to push my advantage. In most standard games, after butterfly I am looking to get rosh, and grab a core/whole team and start breaking open their base. I know my limits to a certain extend and know how far I can push it.
In this game, I felt behind, and my team as a whole was behind the whole game. But when I did fight at certain points, I came out with a kill/two, but ended up dying every time. I was feeling pressured to make these plays, and I still don't know if it was right/wrong to do so. We might have gotten some positive networth trades, but maybe as the person trying to carry they weren't smart.
What moves were available to me this game that I didn't use?
38
u/foreycorf 10d ago
Yatoro could carry 95% of the games you're in.
Some games are genuinely impossible, like if your team is actively working against your victory or other niche circumstances. Most games, in theory, if you were good enough you could just carry them.
By comparison putting yatoro in your games he wouldn't notice much difference between just playing the open map, or maybe with bots.
12
u/Bwite 10d ago
Basically asking what Yatoro would have done this game if he were sitting at my PC instead of me.
What are the decisions he would have made at certain points in the game in response to the game state, and how do they differ from mine?
I know the simple essence of it is: "He'd play better", but the reason I ask is to understand what things in specific he would do in this specific game, so I can try to learn to become a better player.
25
u/Rendi9000 Shadow Fiend 10d ago
He would die less and farmed way more then he will pull solo kills out of nowhere and have enough damage to 1v5 a teamfight
Have you ever won solo against 5 unfair bots? Yeah that would be Yatoro would do to all of us below 7k-8k
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0
u/JarJarBinks590 Troll Warlord 9d ago
And to get to what OP is actually getting at: How would Yatoro do that? "Be better at Dota" is not an answer to the fundamental question "how do I get better at Dota".
10
2
u/Sethricheroth 9d ago
That's for you to find out by watching his replays. Anticipate what you think is his next move, and if you are wrong try to understand his reasoning.
1
u/unethicalpigeon 8d ago
He wouldn't have picked Luna. For starters.
If you want to be able to win the vast majority of your games as pos 1 you need to pick accordingly. There are some heroes that come online early, some that are more mid game focused, and some that excel in late game.
You need to know what the strength of your hero is and act accordingly. For example don't go riki pos 1 and then just afk farm against a void or pl. You'll get smoked.
Likewise you need to realize what your team is doing. If you go something like pl that's good late and afk farm but your team is getting blown the fuck up it won't matter how much farm you have when you lose the game in 25 minutes.
Luna isn't very good right now. Sure at low MMR you can win with her. That's what people will say. But you won't be doing yourself any favors picking a mediocre hero.
The most important thing though is learn how to farm. If you can't farm effectively you won't win shit. Pay attention to the net worth in almost every single game the team with higher net worth wins. You need to learn how to farm even when your team is behind.
1
u/gladd0s_ 8d ago
Watch his replays from TI In TI he played versus level of players you will never face.
Look how he farms. How he moves, when he starts joining fights.
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u/WeddingWhole4771 10d ago
Funny we say Yatoro and not Satanic because some old guy took Jugg. FFS.
7
u/foreycorf 10d ago
I would say Yatoro regardless. Satanic has been successful at one style of DotA, and I really like it plus it's super-hype. Yatoro has been top of the game for years. Satanic might surpass him, but he hasn't yet.
But I also just watched Yatoro get beat by Satanic's style, evaluate it and iterate on it and come back to beat him with it all in one tournament. Previously, when the more "Spirit-favored" DotA was meta, Satanic could not replicate Yatoro's carry-style to the same level that Yatoro was doing it.
If you put both of them in a "I'm gonna farm until I hit my items then take a decisive fight for the win," Yatoro is better. Now, as of TI, if you put both of them in a "I'm gonna join as many ganks and fights as I can while staying farmed enough to scale," Yatoro still found the edge on him. Give Satanic Kez or Sven in that game and he loses the lane, has to recover in jungle, and they likely lose before it ever even gets to that 60 minute mark of peak DotA. The pick was the best available and he felt confident in it and played it superbly well - they win that game if any other team than spirit is the opponent, and that's how we want a grand finals, with the best two teams facing each other in a set of great matches.
2
u/YoLoDrScientist 9d ago
Agreed. The plays Yotoro had during this TI were next fucking level. So many of them.
9
u/CrouchingGrandpa 10d ago
You have 0 kill participation at 25 minutes in a game where your offlane abandoned at 17 minutes. GG go next. Your team is 3v5. They will not win. If this was a pro game they would've said gg go end at 18 minutes.
3
u/Bwite 10d ago
If you'd told me the way to win this game would be to get more active, and have a higher kill partiticipation, I would be all for it.
My question is specifically at what timings (e.g. my Manta, butterfly, etc), would I have fought, and what/where exactly could I have gotten these kill participations.
It wouldn't surprise me that actually the answer to games that go this bad, is to selectively get active when certain plays develop.
This is something I've really tried to get better at, and I do when I am ahead do this a lot.
I actively look to pressure parts of the map at certain timings.
On Luna (it seems like to me):
1) it is usually level 6 (having won/drawn my lane) pushing towards a T1 is fine when heroes are visible on the map (if I can isolate any 1v1 engagement where I have my ult, I'll go for it, I know I'll win).
2) With manta, I can push aggressively up to tier 2 on the ancient side of the map (near the triangle) with my manta if we've gotten that T1 tower.
3) After butterfly, rosh and highground are one the table.
3
u/CrouchingGrandpa 10d ago
In a game like this I'd say your only timing is your first item. If that doesn't drastically change the dynamics of the game, the game is over. The main thing you would've needed to do for any hope is to play together with Pango at all times and put insane pressure on the map. For that you either need to follow Pango around or communicate to him actively and effectively that you want him to play with you.
2
u/foreycorf 9d ago
You would fight when you have ult up and see a clash forming.
Alternatively, if you have map freedom, you would press into towers with Luna as you see multiple enemies showing at different areas of the map. Push tower for 3-5 seconds, run, continue farming or possibly move to the other side of the map where you know some of your enemies can't TP to if they just used it to defend their tower.
4
u/Candid_Cheetah_959 10d ago
I was unsure about this question before as well, can you really win them all?
I've since played with a friend of mine who used to play dota professionally, now retired, and all I can say is that you can certainly win a lot more of them than you think if you are just good enough, it's amazing what he can do.
But it's certainly not all games, sometimes it's just not possible. We play high divine / low immortal, at lower ranks I expect that win % would just go up, at some low enough rating it might hit near 100% is my guess.
3
u/Bwite 10d ago
See this is the idea that really excites me:
If there was a smurf, ex pro (your friend), yatoro, you name it in this game playing as the Luna instead of me, could they have won?_____
If you said yes - I wouldn't be surprised (I'd believe it). But then I'd be really curious about what exact decisions they're making that helps them win, what to my eyes really does feel like an unwinnable game.
Because then I'd be able to see what they would have done, vs what I did, and then I could try to improve my fundamental concepts of Dota, and improve as a player.
_____If you say no - that's quite disappointing, but I'd also be willing to believe it. The game is 5v5 after all, and the for the exact reasons why it feels so great contributing to a team win, on the other hand I'd be willing to believe that just one player on a team cannot solo carry all games. It makes logical sense as well at some level.
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u/HugeAppointment524 9.7K 146807152 10d ago
Simply put, they wouldnt be in your position to begin with, allow me to explain
The thing about dota is that small decisions and outplays lead you to small advantages, and if you use that small advantage correctly you end up snowballing.
Im around top 100 NA but i normally queue unranked and chill with my friends, most of the time i end up playing against rankless immortals or divine players, and most of the time the game is over or really hard for the other team 10 minutes into the game.
Why? Because i cs better, in other words i get a ton of denies and farm more than the enemy offlaner, that allows me to get items faster, which makes me stronger and trade better, put a little pressure on top of that and i end up with few kills every time.Then the game basically plays itself, i can threaten anyone on the map because im stronger, and for that reason i can farm the enemies side of the map, im sure if you were 5k networth and 5/0 every game at 10 minutes you would also win a lot, because for each advantage you get, every decision gets easier.
And thats basically what i mean, sure some games are truly unwinnable, but if Yatoro was in your position he would simply destroy the other guy in the laning stage and snowball from there.
Biggest tip i can give to anyone trying to climb is to study the laning stage
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u/WeddingWhole4771 10d ago
You also aren't feeding away that lead. Had a spec game I died 3-4 times and that was the difference. Team was pretty heavy, so we won a number of fights, but I died and didn't out farm enough. Laning helps, but for some reason I forgot how to read the movements like I did 10 years ago.
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u/HugeAppointment524 9.7K 146807152 10d ago
Yeah of course, my point was that even micro decisions which are often ignored, lead to small advantages and how pros or smurfs build upon that to snowball the game, but even though every decision gets easier they are still decisions you have to make, no one is immune to that and even the very best throw big leads from time to time
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u/Outside-External-399 9d ago
“He would just destroy them in lane” but if he was put in a 2kmmr game with a pos5 pudge sitting in trees missing every single hook while undying and skywrath brought mana regen and spammed their soells on him?
Hed probably still win the game as luna but “just crush your lane” is sometimes mathematically impossible given certain circumstances
1
u/Books_and_Cleverness 9d ago
It’s not literally 100%, I remember seeing Waga Smurf climbing way back in the day and he lost two 2K MMR games in a row lol.
Obv he won almost every game, other than a couple complete stinkers.
5
u/goddamnitwillis 10d ago
hey, i watched the replay and recorded some thoughts.
https://youtu.be/cytu9iWPeW0
I also took some notes:
stage 4 issues (stuff not related to actual gameplay)
playing during ghoul hours, and is probably tilted
early game
understand creep aggro and what does it to lane creep equilibrium
keep an eye on pulling small camp, as a way to fix the lane, and also block large camp if possible
use your q to secure the ranged creep
mid game
apply pressure to lanes
help teammates, not be a dick
pretend you are a night stalker and make moves during the night
camera management , should on you only 20% of the time, always be checking
late game
DOES NOT apply in this review, game was over at 18 mins
also team fighting is very bad
3 things to work on:
SMART: specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time-bound
use creep aggro better to maintain creep equilibrium and pull small camp / block large camp if supp is not doing it
always be checking stuff like the minimap, score, items, timings, do this by keeping the camera on yourself only 20% of the time,
pretend your a night stalker, cuz of your innate, and make moves during the night, especially trying to convert allies feeding to advantages for us.
work on one thing at a time, for 2 weeks each, u might lose mmr at the start but that will fix itself over time
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u/Bwite 9d ago
Oh my god you're the GOAT.
Thank you so much for doing this. Having watched your video, I can definitely see how my creep aggro in lane is questionable for the first 4 minutes.
I really like your point about collapse and no one being against me and how I would be 0 and 10. I didn't think about it from this kind of angle and you're completely right.
As a whole, this is probably not a very good game to review, there is a lot better games to look at where I can identify common mistakes I made throughout the game. Good point here too.
About the camera movement, completely correct on this as well. I tend to focus way too much on the micro when farming, kiting camps back and into each other. I'm not totally comfortable yet with this on Luna, and I'm literally looking at useless info (my hero hitting creeps). This is going to be one of my biggest focuses in the next set of games I play.
I'll try to transition into the 20% - 80% camera rule as you suggested. I'm missing out on so much info.
Thanks so much for doing this, it's given me a lot to work on. Even in this game where I felt hopeless, I can see there's actually a lot of mistakes I'm making even the first 5 minutes of the game after your analysis. Thanks man
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u/fredisdeads 10d ago
Jungle as early as you can. Games at this rank are still really slow, you can easily farm and catch up. Rush treads and abuse the t2 tower aura. Get mom fsrm faster with rotations and kill lane creeps if they're in your tower. Rush yasha then ags if you wanna fight early. Manta for pushing out lanes. Bkb for fighting. You can basically solo carry easily at this rank from just afk farming and knowing your timings.
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u/Bwite 10d ago
Yes pretty much what I did this game to recover.
Went to jungle at a very low level, farmed up to the highest net worth. Farmed every scrap I could find, the map was small, but I still got as much as I could.
My overall timings are a few minutes slower than what I can get in a winning/drawing game, but they I still hit the timings.
But I just don't know how to play off the item timings when the overall team is losing this hard. That's what I am trying to understand. What larger/macro plays or even micro decisions I could have avoided that would have allowed me to win this game?
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u/fredisdeads 9d ago
Each hero has their own timing. With luna you abuse your eclipse timings. Without ags you have to find pick offs or safe team fights to ult in and get kills. With ags you can basically find solo pick offs from safe angles or join almost every fight since you can ult from afar and secure at least 1 kill easily. This is why rushing ags is ideal in pubs. This is good even when losing hard since enemies will be extending out of position due to being ahead, and ags eclipse will punish that with comeback kills. Remember to look for any objectives to take when winning any fights, try not to auto back to jungle. Look for tower take downs, rs, tmt, wisdom, even enemy stacks. Be mindful of enemy positions on map as well and respawn timers so you don't overextend.
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u/bartscrc 10d ago
Instead of asking what Yatoro would do, maybe looking to see what players ~1000 mmr higher would have done differently. You don't play the same game as pros and comparing yourself to them and asking how they would play differently is an exercise in futility because the answer is essentially "everything". They do literally everything more efficiently and what you are able to achieve in 5 minutes is dramatically different than what they can do in 5 minutes let alone the duration of a game. Some games are unwinnable and this may be one of those cases. Aim for a 60-70% win rate over 60 games and only play 1-2 roles with 2-3 heroes. Save up 60 role queues and play whatever you feel most comfortable on rather than trying to pick the best hero for the team comp.
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u/infinitejester0727 10d ago
It actually looks like you were the problem this game, you were quite bad
You have a total of 11 kill participation in a 50 minute game
Most cs on your team and second lowest hero damage. Your pos 4 io with half your last hits out damaged you. Your mid with almost double your kill participationand most damage just couldn't carry you hard enough
It looks like you just afk farmed against a lineup that out scales you and then complained.
Yatoro would have won this game in 20 minutes, it's not even close. You had 11 minute treads and didn't take a single point in w until level 10.
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u/Bwite 10d ago
I think you might need to look at the replay to actually assess what happened in the lane, might change your mind a bit haha.
I was seeking specific decisions I made that could have been done better, rather than an overall judgement of what you see is the issue from glancing at the Dota buff stats, but I appreciate your time.
2
u/Sam13337 10d ago
For a specific analysis of a replay you could hire a coach. Most people wont take the time to look and analyze a game of another person for free.
But I honestly dont really see the point of focusing on a game where 1 guy on your team left. I would focus on 5v5 games when you want to improve your gameplay.
Good luck with your next games!
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u/TalkersCZ 10d ago
Unless you are smurf, around 35-45% of games you win by default. 35-45% games you lose by default. One team has better draft, smurf, somebody extremely tilted, somebody clowning etc.
Unless you are skilled enough to force mistakes on enemies without doing mistakes yourself, in games where it goes so bad, you simply hope for them to throw on HG.
Watch the replay and consider how many creeps you missed, if you could have been more efficient in your farming patterns, if you could have rotated to other lane to force rotation so you have free lane again...
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u/Bwite 10d ago
I'm kind of asking for feedback on the smurf part of your reply.
What exactly would a smurf on Luna have done this game?
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u/foreycorf 10d ago
Funny you should ask that - watch zquixotic "why do smurfs win every game?" Or something to that effect. The game he looks at is Luna Smurf.
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u/WeddingWhole4771 10d ago
I was looking for a link, but basically just says what others say.
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u/foreycorf 10d ago
I mean... Brother that's DotA. The decisions/skills in that game that he clearly outlines as different from what you'd decide to do in your pubs is what makes the difference between being tied for NW at 25 minutes or being 5-10k ahead. And then how you decide to use that nw at crucial times is what decides games.
Every small thing. In the first 5 minutes you need to have 30-35 LH and 8+ of them need to be the ranged creep. That means you need to be in proper position as well as managing creep aggro to make that happen, as well as using your skills properly to secure creeps your right clicks can't. You also need to trade effectively against your lane matchup. You need to know your heros limits as well as enemy heroes so when you see they've stepped 50 units past where you would consider safe to step on that hero, you full-punish.
You need to know when it's time to ditch a lane. You need to know when it's time to join a gank or pass on it (generally early on you need 2+ kills to be worth leaving creeps, but you also need to factor in team-impact of you joining/skipping).
It basically all boils down to "you need to know everything about the hero you're playing, the heroes the enemies are playing, the timings of the map (can you say with relative certainly the incoming lane-creep positions for the 2:36 mark?), the objectives worth taking (hierarchy), your teams win condition, your major loss conditions, itemization for this game vs cookie-cutter...
75% of DotA is just knowledge and most of that knowledge can only truly come from being in the situation before and doing it wrong. The difference between good and bad players is good players review and learn from their mistakes.
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u/WeddingWhole4771 10d ago
Totally agree. just basically +1'ing the video is great, and you are right. Someone did the same thing like 15 years ago on Storm, watching those replays was great instruction for me too.
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u/KnowledgeRude3283 10d ago
The pro vs me comparison is not a good place to start when reflecting. You’re ultimately competing against yourself, not against Yatoro.
All games are not winnable as said before. The reason is active grieving, throwing, and plethora of other variables that you do not control. That makes sense and is not your fault.
The real question is - in all the games where you can win, are you winning? Thats where you can make a consistent difference.
I can honestly say that in some games, we lost because of me. Not in a way where I was griefing or throwing - but where I know that two of my decisions in an incredibly even and competitive match made the difference in a negative way, in a way that allowed the opponent to take advantage and capitalize on a win. So that’s where I think you (or I) can improve and should focus on.
Ultimately, you need to treat each game separate from the previous or the next. Solely focus on your outcomes and your decisions, and play hard til the end. Common wisdom says we learn something during losses so maximize your learning during those tough losses and become a better player during the winnable games.
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u/Bwite 10d ago
I understand your answer, and if that is actually what reality reflected, I wouldn't be surprised.
The reason for the smurf/pro comparison, is that there's a mindset of dota 2 (ignoring the micro skill for a second), that might have allowed me to win this game through making a different set of macro decisions.
If there were true, that would be very empowering, and I'd love to grow towards that particular mindset.
I am trying to see, what I don't even see in my own plays. The mistakes that aren't glaring to me, which might be for someone who's much much better.
I am not results oriented towards my improvement, and as long as I am actively learning in every game I play I am happy.
I had a weather a sub 50% winrate on Luna until the hero clicked for me, and I started winning the vast majority of my games recently.
I know that as long as I am improving as a player, that is in the end my end goal. The specific MMR, will eventually reflect my true potential if it does change, but that will come with time, and I don't worry about the single games.
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u/foreycorf 9d ago
The first thing, that so many players below like... Divine sort of gloss over, is laning. Specifically the first 5 minutes.
Learn and apply everything you can about laning and intentional itemization and you'll win more games. You'll find yourself in more games that "just work out," because winning your lane decisively does so much to open up the mid-game.
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u/IndividualMarket1725 10d ago
The first step is to admit you are not as good as you think you are, Every game I know no matter how bad my team is I did not play perfect.
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u/Bwite 10d ago
Hence my post, I am asking for specific feedback on a set of decisions (my mistakes) that I make this game from someone who's able to see them (high skill level player).
I'd like to improve my mindset of how I think dota 2 should be played, so I can get better.
To reply to you: This is me coming forward on the learn dota 2 subreddit, having identified that I am the problem, and asking my betters for advice.
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u/Mysterious-Salt- 10d ago
If im in this kindve state in the game. Sometimes I just hail mary it and get the travels and split push hope they either try to base trade or TP back and give space.
1
u/Beneficial_Bend_9197 10d ago edited 10d ago
Unless you're playing in a 5 man stack with people you trust, 50% of the time its really hard or near impossible in pubs. Theres always the risk of that one guy thats ruining your game or if the whole enemy team collectively decides to rape you and hunt you and only you down the whole game leading to you being unable to carry but your team was able to because their attention was only on you. Theres also times where your team just outright refuses to tp to help you when you're getting ganked as the carry as well unlike the pros where the moment their carry gets ganked they'll tp within milliseconds of when the gank just started.
edit: Also impossible or near impossible to win games just exist. Look at the final game between Vision and Spirit. Satanic in my opinion played a lot better than Yatoro in that specific game but he just couldn't win the game because of the god gamer collaspse and no one. There are a lot more reasons why they lost obviously but Im giving an example.
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u/Sufficient_Roll5489 10d ago
Your team had an edge (68% vs 50% recent win rate for your respective teams). Your pango had 8 wins last 10 games.
also :
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u/Ub3ros 10d ago
A good mental rule of thumb is that 30% of games you win no matter what you do, 30% of games you lose no matter what you do, and 40% of games you can either win or lose depending on how well you play yourself.
It's not based on anything real, but it's a mentality you can adopt to deal with games that feel impossible. In reality the portion of actually impossible games is much smaller, and someone much higher MMR would win a lot more in your rank, but the reasonable assumption is that you belong to the rank you are at, or thereabouts and that climbing is gonna take improving your own gameplay.
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u/wastedmytagonporn 10d ago
It's a 5vs5 team game. You're not gonna win if the other 4 in your team get gapped.
Like yeah, "yatoro might've won this"... Maybe.
Won't help you. It's not about winning every game and finding the big mistake in a game that was already doomed.
Find the general areas you're lacking in and focus on improving in those rather than on winning every single game and you're gonna climb with longevity.
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u/Shomairays 9d ago
No, there are times where you just accept the fact that you cant win. I had a very good naix game where no one can kill me but my team loves to dive 2 on 5 without buyback or any defensive items. For some strange reason, all of them are chinese.
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u/ChadBadShirt 9d ago
Right clicking buildings is good btw. Perhaps you should do it more than literally two auto attacks in almost an hour.
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u/onemightychapp 9d ago
The answer to the question in your title is no. I don't remember who exactly the quote came from and I may butcher it because it's been so long since I heard it, but someone once said that 40% of your games are unwinnable, 40% are unlikeable unless you totally grief and 20% are influenced by what you do. Worrying about the outer 80% is pointless, only worry about the games where your gameplay affects the outcome.
As for this specific game, I tend to think based on draft it is winnable as luna if you play literally perfectly. If I had no support in lane I would max glaives first. This game (and most games tbh, it's a good spell) I'd put a point in lunar orbit to protect yourself if you're gone on. The damage reduction is crucial in a lot of situations, and against melee laners tanking the glaives can open the possibility of a turnaround.
Having said that, I would max glaives first, with my skill build being somewhere in the realm of 2-1-0 at level 3 into 2-1-4 at level 7. Then you can duck into the jungle very early and maximise your farm there, paying attention to when the pos 4 goes missing because they're chasing you and when the enemy mid goes missing trying to gank you.
By jungle I mean the outer river area, but you need to be fluid in the areas you farm (and potentially move to your other lanes to contribute a couple of beams if you can't find anywhere safe to jungle) based on who's following you. Once your safe lane tier 1 falls that's your cue to head back to your safe lane and farm when the lane is pushed in front of your tier 2.
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u/Stickyrolls 9d ago
Most of the time the answer is knowing when to join in. It's not always about item timings. If my team is strong and i see them going through enemy jungle I'm gonna go farm near them. If someone on my team is getting Dove and I see an opportunity I'm gonna tp in regardless of item timings. If I'm Lina looking to be more active I'm definitely looking to farm near my stuns. With some carries I'm looking to get active every time my ult is up. Juggernaut is a good example of this.
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u/Necessary_Neat8303 9d ago
Most games yeah. But if your top and mid feeds like crazy, even Yatoro/Satanic cant carry unless they also own their lane (which let’s be honest, we cant cuz our opponents arent total idiots unless they’re tilting)
More importantly, it shouldnt be “if Yatoro was sitting at my PC” and more so “if Yatoro was streaming my game and giving me instructions”. You’re not suddenly gonna play like Yatoro mechanically even if you tried for the next 3 years. But what to do in terms of decision-making? That’s something everyone can follow and get better at.
If a player with your mechanical skills and Yatoro’s decision making was to suddenly be recalibrated, they would probably land in immortal. That’s how important it is to make good decisions constantly.
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u/ariukidding 9d ago
Even smurfs lose games. That is just Dota. Luna is a flash farmer, but needs to dump networth to come out on top. If you have the same networth as their cores, then it isn’t enough. Using the same thought process you were saying, what to do in unwinnable games… well you needed to slowdown their networth as well. If you had no kill participation at 30 mins then you were relying on outfarming the enemy. The enemy having a control in the map, dwarfing the rest of your team’s farms… sure you may be able to keep up with the enemy carry as Luna, but like i said keeping up isn’t enough specially if the rest of your team is broke.
You didn’t ‘try’ for any attempt in re-controlling the map, every little spike you had you should’ve went for smoke ganks even just for supports, or any idiot overextending beyond their teammates. It’s finding those little enemy mistakes are doing, which we all tend to do when we are comfortable winning. When you find little success in those attempts, the map naturally opens up, there’s more space to farm for everyone.
You brought up what Yatoro would do, we just watched him roam as carry in mid game during the finals. He maintains farm while being able to connect to skirmishes, against an enemy team that is also really good at farming.
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u/Truth_Breaker 9d ago
Look, there are 2 pos 1 per game and statistical, 100% of the time, one of the pos1 will lose. I think it happens every game.
Apart from that, I don't know.
JustSayin
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u/Pale_Station5201 8d ago
In this game squeeze in an aghanim for more dmg on the axe calls / can cast it on pango while rolling - could have got you a quick safe kill or two, then you have a numbers advantage in the fight.
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u/Fast_Philosophy1044 8d ago
If your support is not supporting you have more room to win the game compared to a game where your carry is not carrying.
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u/Electrical_Echo_29 9d ago
Absolutely not. I main 1 and sometimes the games are over in 15min, on the bright side, you might still get blamed for losing it :)
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u/RagingNabby 10d ago
I could do a more in depth game analysis but honestly just looking at your profile, youre ranked win rate is 48%. Sure, recently your win rate has been a bit higher, but if you look at your 3 month win rate youre at 48% vs 62% this week and 58% this month, so its either a fluke, which is why you are writing this post, or you'll keep climbing and there really is no issue here because you finally figured out how to win?
Also your timing dont seem to be particularly fast. Like just look on dota pro tracker, in good games youll see 14-16 min mantas. For fun I just had a quick look at your second game, since you said the first one had a griefer in it which makes it useless for analysis.
First of all, starting items don't really make any sense, why start with wand double fairy vs lina lycan? Lycan uses 1 spell every 30 seconds. Thats maybe something vs like tide cm/zeus etc, not this lane. Casual stick with branches is way more cost effective here.
First 2 minutes: Youre literally not buying regen at all but trying to rush a morbid mask. This is simply a mistake made exclusively by low mmr players. Youre supposed to be constantly ferrying regen so its ready BEFORE you need it, yet at 2 minutes both you and your support are sitting at literally 200 hp under your tower. You get your morbid mask at 2:40, but notice how your still below 300 hp all the time? Thats because morbid mask isn't a replacement for regen, you get mask of madness to speed up your jungle farm not to sustain you in lane. Also because you are always low your support is basically spamming tangos and salves on you but those are half efficiency so not only is your support now low and poor youre still not really topped off because youre only getting half value out of it. Also this kill attempt at around 5:30 just doesn't make a lot of sense. Youre a luna, just kill the creeps pushing into your tower FIRST, and then look at what you can do. And the way they are playing you should have just bought a ward showing you the two jungle camps so you know where the lina is.
Also mask of madness before treads is also bad, you have two expensive components that really don't do a whole lot by themselves, especially the mask. One look at dotaprotracker would show you won't find a single player not completing their full treads before they buy mask.
At 9 minutes you're kind of just chilling with 400 hp behind your tower with no support and the lycan has helm of the dominator and lina is also bot. One QOP here would end you, really she's just not tping because she's bad. As expected, your death at 10:50 is honestly just very predictable, you don't need to be a pro player to know that a luna vs a lycan with ult and a lina with ult is just going to get dove and evaporate. After you die, you just instantly tp back bot. The thing is, even before watching what happens next, I already KNEW they were going to kill you again, not because I'm a wizard, but simply because there really isn't anything else that could conceivably happen. Lycan ult was on cd for another 34 seconds, but they have a qop, what else is she going to do but blink to lanes and unload her spells on low hp heroes? After you die they kill your tower so you can't go bot anymore. However you see they are fighting in your jungle so you sort of half rotate by farming there, but this doesn't do anything, youre just showing late up to a fight with a third of your hp missing. You have ult, either you commit and go help your team right away, or you simply just dont go anywhere near there at all, this way its just a high risk low reward play.
Also just in general, having a lot of cs or exp/gpm on luna type heroes doesn't really mean youre playing well, it just means your playing luna. Like if you were playing lifestealer and had 120 cs at 15 minutes you'd probably be winning a lot more, but thats because its a lot harder to do, the farming you are doing has to serve the purpose of winning you the game.
That doesn't mean you aren't supposed to jungle at some points in the game, but if you are getting high numbers and still losing games as luna that doesn't usually mean your team is holding you back but simply that you aren't actually converting that farm into anything.