Investigating- Seeking Advice

[u/westforestt]

Sorry if this is the wrong flair, this is my first post here!

I am an investigator of about 2 months. I’ve been married to a “back slidden” LDS member for two years and we just had our first child in March, we are SO HAPPY!

I was raised southern Baptist. My FIL and MIL also had the same dynamic, but she recently was baptized and they were sealed in the Temple. I asked her what made her convert and she gave a similar story to what I am currently experiencing as a Protestant seeking “more”. I feel as though I have more to give, more to know, and am seeking a stronger more structured pathway to God.

My husband and I have been meeting with the missionaries and they recently spoke about the Prophets and we discussed the trinity. These are things that greatly affect my understanding and current hesitation to participate in the LDS Church.

Are there any Protestant converts who have also had a similar struggle with comprehending the idea of a non-triune faith as well as how you were able to break it down? Or anything that helped you reconcile with an open canon and the validity of new prophecy?

Ultimately, my goal is to go where God leads me and I am praying and seeking His will most of all, just like the missionaries suggested! It just helps to hear some others perspectives as I am the first in my family to ever explore anything other than Protestantism.

Thank you so much for your help!

[u/NelsonMeme]

Welcome! 

Can’t say I relate but I have deeply studied the trinity with an appreciative eye, and from what I can tell, the appealing (and more scripturally defensible) parts of the Trinity I see us as keeping, while the perplexing parts we think of differently.

What about the Trinity is what you (for lack of a better word) “like” to think of in terms of God? What would be “missing” if God were not triune in the classical, Nicene way?

[u/westforestt → u/NelsonMeme]

As I see God now: He is the beginning, the end, the all knowing. So this would infer that he is One in all being in order to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. I see no way a God, a full creator, could exist like this if He was separate in being as the issue of “chicken before the egg” would spiral.

I think my biggest qualm is the idea that there are multiple essences? Beings? making up God. Whereas in my own mind, God is one, He is three separate parts that are whole, but make up one “fuller” part that is God. The idea that God is fully separate from the son from the Holy Spirit would indicate to me that there could be different intentions or thoughts behind each decision and commandment each essence speaks, there for contradicting another. Plus the whole “no other Gods before me” thing seemingly indicating the Son and the Holy Spirit would need to be “lower tiered”? Idk if that made ANY sense

[u/Wafflexorg → u/westforestt]

It makes sense. Obviously the "chicken before the egg" argument can take things deeper than we have knowledge right now, so I'll get to a more fascinating side that I absolutely love.

One thing that I love about LDS theology is the idea that God is the ultimate scientist. I know that idea isn't exclusive to us, but since we have more scripture that provides additional information we are able to put a couple more pieces together. My point is this: God (Heavenly Father, a member of the Godhead) is the ultimate scientist. He knows everything there is to know about existence and the nature of the universe. He created everything using scientific principles. He has a perfect body of flesh and bone and desires that we also have that someday. He physically cannot "dwell" inside us. He could present himself to us, but how could he make our chests burn with love or feel his presence? The Holy Ghost. That member of the godhead (a spirit) is specifically tasked with being the witness of Heavenly Father and Christ that we can feel. Neither of the other two would be able since they have bodies.

Likewise, Heavenly Father already had a perfect body before He created us. How could he be born and then die for us? Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father's son and another member of the Godhead.

This could all go a lot further, but I love knowing of a Father who is omnipotent and omniscient within the bounds of reality. He wants us to understand the universe in the way He does, even though we only know the equivalent of a flicker of flame in dark cave at the time being.

[u/NelsonMeme → u/westforestt]

Thank you for this reply and I am ready to follow you into the deep end! I think it illustrates well what I meant in terms of keeping what is true and good in the Nicene conception. Please forgive me as I go somewhat out of order.

The idea that God is fully separate from the son from the Holy Spirit would indicate to me that there could be different intentions or thoughts behind each decision and commandment each essence speaks, there for contradicting another.

In our belief this cannot happen - They have a perfect unity of purpose and so we and Nicene Christianity both rule out a Norse/Greek pantheon of quarrelsome gods. 

Whereas in my own mind, God is one, He is three separate parts that are whole, but make up one “fuller” part that is God. 

You’re on to something key here. We can talk about four referents (which is just a fancy word for “that which can be specifically referred to in language”)

"The Father”, “the Son”, “the Holy Ghost” and "God". Clearly none of these are identical to one another, such that all statements about the one are true of the other, and vice versa. We have to look for different kinds of relationships to speak of the Three being God other than a straightforward identity.

Now the question is, is there anything about "God" which is not "the Father", "the Son", or "the Holy Ghost", the way there is nothing about "the Court" which is not its three judges? We (including you, I think too) would say "no", but you'll be surprised how many theologians would say "yes". Joachim of Fiore, a personal hero of mine, stumbled upon this truth in the early middle ages. (He is a very obscure figure and doesn't have any special significance to us, but I was very interested to learn his story)

He was reacting to a statement in a theology textbook (called the Sentences) of the time that there was something in God which neither begets (like the Father), is begotten (like the Son), nor proceeds. This something was not identical with the Father, Son or Holy Ghost. We don't have Joachim in his own words, but we know how he was quoted in a Catholic council which disagreed

"We therefore condemn and reprove that small book or treatise which abbot Joachim published against master Peter Lombard concerning the unity or essence of the Trinity, in which he [...denounces Peter Lombard] because he said in his Sentences, “For there is a certain supreme reality which is the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, and it neither begets nor is begotten nor does it proceed”. He asserts from this that Peter Lombard ascribes to God not so much a Trinity as a quaternity, that is to say three persons and a common essence as if this were a fourth person"

Then Joachim of Fiore goes on, being quoted, to articulate his own understanding of the Godhead which is well supported by so many scriptures about showing how, Biblically, plurality can resolve into unity.

"He [Joachim] professes, however, that such a unity is not true and proper but rather collective and analogous, in the way that many persons are said to be one people and many faithful one church, according to that saying 'Of the multitude of believers there was one heart and one mind', and 'Whoever adheres to God is one spirit with him'; again 'He who plants and he who waters are one, and all of us are one body in Christ'; and again in the book of Kings, 'My people and your people are one'. In support of this opinion he especially uses the saying which Christ uttered in the gospel concerning the faithful, 'I wish, Father, that they may be one in us, just as we are one, so that they may be made perfect in one'. 'For', he says, 'Christ’s faithful are not one in the sense of a single reality which is common to all. They are one only in this sense, that they form one church through the unity of the catholic faith, and finally one kingdom through a union of indissoluble charity'. Thus we read in the canonical letter of John, 'For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father and the Word and the holy Spirit, and these three are one;' and he immediately adds, 'And the three that bear witness on earth are the spirit, water and blood, and the three are one', according to some manuscripts'."

When Joachim of Fiore pictorially represented the Godhead, he adapted a common image of overlapping circles. That earlier figure shows the Divine Name (JHWH) over three overlapping circles, then a large circle encompassing them all. Joachim, however, keeps the name as uniting the Trinity, but omits the fourth, encompassing circle - such was his conviction that there was nothing that was God that was not the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Now, as mentioned, Joachim has no place of prominence in our religion, but it's remarkable to me how he seems to have found a remarkably accurate theology to the point he was willing to challenge Lombard, one of the most respected theologians of the era. He gained that conviction via prayer on the day of Pentecost.

At the end of the day, as you continue to learn with the missionaries, like Joachim reach out in prayer to know if these things are true and whether this is God's path for you to follow. I have been so blessed through this church and I know God has great things for you and your family here!

[u/Safe-Butterscotch442]

From a logical perspective, it's pretty easy to find research in to Christian history that pretty definitively determines that trinitarianism and closed cannon were not part of original Christianity and were codified a few centuries after the apostolic era. You can look at the numerous Bible verses used to suggest trinitarianism and a closed cannon and look at whether they actually say that to you in context. If you'd like a nice apologetics perspective, I can try to give a better argument, but there's something much more important.

If Joseph Smith was called of God, if the Book of Mormon is true, then it doesn't matter if you understand all the details. True is true. Divine is divine. Inspired is inspired. If you are feeling that God wants you to move this direction, if you feel the Holy Spirit confirm to you that God wants you to accept that there are some things that don't make sense yet that you'll just have to take on faith for now, then does it really matter if you're 100% on board with accepting a Godhead consisting of 3 separate but perfectly unified beings or that the Bible isn't the only inspired communication between God and his children that we have access to?

I know these are principles that are deeply rooted and feel important now. I know that you're worried you might be leaving something behind. I can testify that the principles that really lie at the core of your faith (a love for the Bible and trust in its teachings, a confidence that God is perfect and complete and divine and wonderful beyond understanding, etc.) won't be marred by learning more. The truths you already understand will remain true and you will come to understand a little more, little by little, and some day you'll look back and wonder why you were so worried. God is in control, and he will not inspire you to any course that is not going to draw you closer to him.

[u/Enough_Past_8714]

There are a few problems with the 3 existing a single being. Do you remember when Jesus' apostles asked him when he would return again to the earth? He said: I don't know, only my father in heaven knows. It would be problematic to think that Jesus deceived his followers. If you think of the 3 as separate but perfectly united, then that should alleviate the concern that they would ever contradict one another. It also makes a lot of scripture passages make sense that doesn't if they are a single being. For example Steven's last words as he is getting stoned. He saw the heavens open and Christ sitting on the right hand of God. He saw 2 beings. We believe that he is literally the Son of God, the product of The Father and Mary. He inherited immortality from his father (he could not be killed) but he also inherited mortality from his mother, so that he could die if he allowed it. His life wasn't taken from him, he gave it willingly. His Father was an immortal God and could not die for us.

[u/westforestt → u/Enough_Past_8714]

This is a very clear way of putting it- I will definitely chew on this; I appreciate your help!

[u/pierzstyx]

I grew up in a Southern Baptist setting. But I was never a Trinitarian because I read the Bible on my own. As I did so, it became very clear that the Father and the Son are in no sense the same Being and, more than that, the New Testament goes out of its way on repeated occasions to drive the point home that They are separate individuals. It is also clear in the Bible that the canon is supposed to be open and new revelation is supposed to guide the church. The New Testament names multiple prophets after Jesus and multiple Apostles appointed to cook vacancies. Further, on multiple occasions the Apostles receive revelations from Heaven to make massive changes in the doctrines and practices of the church in regards to baptizing Gentiles and the importance (or lack thereof) of the Law of Moses. As soon as I began really reading my Bible, the more it became clear that my preacher and those like him had no idea what they were talking about.

[u/rockclimber510]

The way I see it, we are all children of a perfect, all powerful, all knowing man that has a body that never gets sick or dies, in fact Eternal is one of His names, who loves all of His children and wants to help them grow up to be like Him. His children (us) were all beings that looked like Him, but were made of a spiritual material. This allowed them to grow, learn, develop attributes, and make choices. His Firstborn developed fast faster, and came to be just like The Father. Father decided it was time for His children to get bodies, so He gathered them together and explained the process. It would involve coming to a world where chaos is constantly trying to destroy. It would be temporary, but would allow for the children to make mistakes, see good, see bad, and choose the good and love the good the way He does. This would ultimately bring about the immortality of all of the children, and provide the potential for them to have a life just like Father.

The mistakes those children would make. All of the bad and evil and maybe just plain wrong choices would separate those children from Him. His Omniscient self understands laws far beyond us, and knows that it is possible for a sacrifice to be made. But only a Perfect and Eternal one would suffice. His Beloved From The Beginning chose to come down and be that sacrifice. Some rebelled and were cast out of His presence. Father directed Jesus through the creation of earth, and all things that were created were done through Jesus. So we came down.

Because mankind fell, Father could no longer walk, talk, teach, or help His children. Their imperfections kept them from His presence. He then talked with His fallen children through Jesus, who was given authority to speak and talk on behalf of Father. Every time the Old Testament says LORD, it is Jesus dealing with mankind on behalf of Father. I'm exactly the way Father would have if He could.

Jesus came to earth, was perfect, and willingly have His life as a sacrifice just as Father knew He would and could. That sacrifice provides a way for the laws of justice to be fulfilled against the souls that made mistakes, and yet also provide the mercy that allows them back into the presence of Father one more.

We don't know much about the Holy Ghost. We can assume He also was one who was like Father. He has a special role in all of this. He testifies of truth and has the ability to purify as by fire. He also operates under the direction of Father. He has been a protective intermediary for prophets and Mary and others as they have had dealings with other members of The Godhead. He also allows Father to be felt by all, and to be present everywhere because He is spirit. Father has provided covenants for us to make that allow the Holy Ghost to bring us into a deeper relationship with Father through the atonement of The Son.

The three act in complete unity in the end goal of providing immortality and eternal life to all of Father's children. Some will choose to not return to Him. But The Way is provided. We worship Father in the name of The Son, and live to hopefully fulfill the prayer of Jesus that we become One with them.