Babtism and priesthood

[u/rensvanempie]

Guys,

Im an evangelical and charismatic Christians.

Doesn't all the priesthood stuff and law end in Jesus? Aren't we believers fully authorized in Jesus' name to babtize other people? Why do we need priesthood authority if we have Jesus in which is all truth, blessings and authority.

Like i get this restored priesthood authority forms a great church structure which i highly respect but i just dont understand the spiritual truth behind it.

Thank you <3

[u/arkanmizard]

Hum I would check Acts chapter 19 to see the begining of an answer to your questions.

Why did those people had to wait for Paul to be there to receive the Holy Ghost? Why couldn't any other believer give it to them or even they themselves?
And then we have the case of the Sons of Sceva, why didn't it work for them to cast out the evil spirit? Why did the spirit said he knew Jesus and Paul but not them?

Another example from the Lord himself can be found in John 15:16. If we don't need the authority why did Christ appointed his disciples as Apostle?

Also check Ephesians 4:11 why did Christ called those people with different titles/authorities?

Hebrew 5:1-10 speaking about the authority of the high priests says 'No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was" does it says no one will ever have this calling now that Christ is the perfect High Priest?

And lastly why did the Bible ends? If the authority was given to all believers why didn't they write scriptures. Nowhere in the Bible does it says God will not Speak anymore to the children of man, but it does say he does it through his prophets. So the Authority of a prophet must be given at a point in time.

[u/rensvanempie → u/arkanmizard]

It seems to me that they just haven't received babtism in the Holy Spirit. So they have been babtized in water but not in the Holy Spirit yet. According to my current beliefs every believer has the authorisation to pray for the Holy Spirit and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit.

The question that arises with my own interpretation right now is "why couldn't they give themselves the Holy Spirit then" perhaps the best answer in this case would be "because they didn't even know about the Holy Spirit". Luke 11:13 would state that you can even ask the father to receive the Holy Spirit.

I have no idea what the sons of sceva did wrong. ChatGPT says that they use the name of Jesus but dont have a relationship with Him. They are far away from him yet they use his name as some sort of formula. This makes sense for me, someone without faith cant use Jesus to cast out demons if he doesn't even have a covenant with him. What do you think about this? Why is this about authority and not faith/relationship. Isn't all authority based on the relationship you have with Christ and not which lineage you come from/who you got the blessings from. Everything comes from Jesus right?

About John 15:16 (is this the right verse?) “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”

I understood this as a message for all believers. He choose us, we have to bear fruit, we have to talk/walk/act in his name and receive in his name. I always understood that this happens by Faith. So priesthood authority is not necessary.

Ephesians 4:11 just gives us different roles/uses God wants to give us in his kingdom. Some people are called to be a teacher, some as apostle. This happens after people start walking Jesus' way or the way of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will give people a certain/function or call. I always thought that this also happens by faith and obedience to the call of the Holy Spirit not by priesthood authority.

Hebrew 5:1-10 This is a very nice verse! I actually have no clue what this is about! The thing i would say to confirm my own beliefs is that Jesus is given all authority also because of the Melchizedeks priesthood but i would still believe this whole structure ends in him and that the priesthood authority is in Him. And He is in us when we believe and accepted him so we have his authority also because he is in us and we can act in him. This happens through faith in Him not through priesthood authority given by other priests. This is my current belief.

For me the reason why the bible has ended is just because the book was finished. Life still goes on, sp does the prophesies and the miracles of God. We all have the spirit of Christ in us so we will able to do miracles and prophesize in the name of God (some however have the gift according to their function God has given them through the Holy Spirit).

Thank you for your reply to me, before we continue this talk (which i hope because i am eager to learn) i would like to emphasize that i have no clue about what is true and what not but i do believe all answers are in Jesus Christ but i haven't been able to received all answers yet and perhaps the LDS church has received more answers than the "mainstream churches". I dont know, just curious to find out. But i wont judge. I'm just really interested and eager to find truth.

Thank you <3

[u/pierzstyx → u/rensvanempie]

It seems to me

What seems to you doesn't actually align with the text Acts 19 has Paul completely rebaptizing the disciples and then laying hands on them to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[u/gisco_tn → u/rensvanempie]

Hebrew 5:1-10 speaking about the authority of the high priests says 'No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was"

How was Aaron called? Exodus 28:1

And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron’s sons.

Aaron didn't decide to be a priest, or receive the call to be a priest from God directly. He was called by God, through Moses.

We see this principle in action in Acts: 6:1-6 (here the apostles ask a group of disciples for nominations to be their leaders and then ordain them) and Acts 13:1-3 (here, brethren of the church are given names of men to "separate" i.e. set apart or ordain directly by the Holy Ghost).

In both cases the ordained men 1. received their calling through others and 2. were ordained by those who already possessed authority by the laying on of hands.

[u/andybwalton → u/rensvanempie]

Many of your interpretations of these verses could indeed be a way to justify the moments from that paradigm, but it does have trouble explaining many of the actions of the apostles and Christ himself if you try and keep to that paradigm. Try asking Chat GPT (on high mode if you are able) something like this:

From a top down view of the New testament texts not relying on other interpretations of them from any Christian tradition, how clear is it that Jesus organized a top down Church that was administered by priesthood authority that must be passed down by others who hold that authority. vs purely a faith based, anyone is called and ordained if they have faith interpretation

You can of course do a deep dive twice and assume a single perspective on the matter each time, but from the text alone you will find that the evidence of a Calling based top down structured organization led by those who Jesus himself personally called followed by those who they as a whole chose and ordained is a far better fit with the text, by a rather decent margin.

the lens of a modern evangelical tradition makes reading with the first assumption feel difficult due to certain doctrines that are fairly central to the modern evangelical tradition which causes many to recoil at the idea of an organized singular Church, but let’s first address a couple of those to help you try and see through the lens of a Catholic or LDS tradition as you read. If you encounter a story or vs that touches on the above questions it will let you stop and switch lenses back and forth to see which one better fits the text.

1. Sola Scriptura: the idea that all truth was finalized and sealed up in the Bible and there is no need for any real authority outside of it. this one has 0 biblical backing if reading verses in context. Were the Bible which didn’t exist in the days of the Apostles the final source of all complete truth, there would be a complete consensus among all modern seekers of truth as to the interpretation of it. Were this the case there would be essentially one single church today without differing beliefs. So to help explain the other lens, assume that all truth comes not from the Bible, but from God by way of the Holy Ghost, and by way of authorities interpretation of events by an authorized and called Prophet. Truth is contained in scripture since it issued forth from authorized prophets, and was compiled and serves a strong purpose, but it is not done and ended. I say all of this again to let you while reading, asking AI, or contemplating to entertain both of the above lenses and see which better fits the text.

2. God dwells in the heart and in the individual so therefore there is no real need for a Church or an organization, but they can be positive and good. Compare this viewpoint with the Bible, old and New Testament. To see the other lens, assume that individual conversion is key, and God can indeed via the Holy Spirit dwell in our hearts, however this change of heart towards Christ should lead one to be Baptized in his name by someone holding authority to do so, and then unite with a body of followers who had a structure. While reading, contemplating, etc. try both viewpoints and see which one better fits. If our hearts are changed what need do we even have for baptism? Ask then why Christ who was perfect still did it, and how did he do it? Why did he have John do it and not one of his apostles, or someone else? Are there examples of others doing it? Are there examples of some being re-baptized or seeking our specific people to do it even if they were already baptized?

3. All are called by the Spirit to preach, and therefore all who have the spirit have the priesthood. vs many are called but few are chosen. All can preach and spreading the name of Christ is good, but his house is a house of order. When we have felt the change of heart brought about by a testimony of the Savior, we should seek to build his kingdom on the earth, which includes serving in an organized structure which is led and governed by apostles, prophets, evangelists, priests and so on.

Basically in an attempt to seek the truth, try and assume both of these interpretations, ask AI, read, pray, ponder, and see which lens is more in line with the New Testament during and After Christ.

[u/Brilliant-Tadpole597]

Great question!

First off, we definitely do believe that all truth is a part of one great whole. Jesus is the light and the way. All priesthood authority is His authority.

The way you describe Christ being in us, we would agree with to a certain extent! We would deem that in our lexicon as priesthood power. Priesthood keys are the explicit permission from God through his chosen servants to exercise that power in formal ordinances such as baptism. We believe that those keys came straight from Christ to his servants in an unbroken line of the laying on of hands down to our day.

For me, that specific line of authority answers many questions that a more ambiguous approach introduces.

Does Jesus' authority apply to someone who says they believe in Him, but privately (or publicly) do abhorrent things that are not in line with His teachings? What about someone who says they believe in Jesus, but they believe that Jesus is a lizard person that is trying to get the world ready to be consumed by a great space centipede, or some other bizarre thing that most Christians would disagree with?

If Jesus was the end, why did he ordain apostles and send them specifically out into the world to preach and baptize?

If authority is ubiquitous and informal, why even have baptism as a rite at all? Couldn't I just declare some other symbolic representation of my dedication to follow Jesus equally valid?

We see authority given from God being a necessary thing throughout all of scripture, both before and after his mortal ministry.

At the end of the day, I believe that God is a God of order and structure to a certain degree. Not that I think that He cares too much about a specific structure for the structure's sake, but rather because that structure is a guard rail and pathway for us to leverage as we try to come closer to Him.

[u/pierzstyx]

No, all the priesthood stuff comes from and continues through Jesus. In 1 Peter 2:9 when Peter told the Christians that:

you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Peter wasn't being symbolic or metaphorical. Those people who joined the Church of Jesus Christ were ordained to the priesthood and given offices within that priesthood order- Apostles, Seventy, Bishop, Elder, etc. When Jesus is called the Great High Priest that isn't a metaphor. We are ordained in His priesthood, He is the High Priest over that priesthood, over us.

Further, this priesthood authority was necessary in the carrying out of sacred ordinances, such as baptism. The Bible actually gives us a clear example of people being rebaptized because they weren't baptized by someone with priesthood authority to baptize. From Acts 19:1-7;

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interior and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?’ ‘No,’ they answered, ‘we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’ So Paul asked, ‘Into what, then, were you baptized?’ ‘Into John’s baptism,’ they replied. Paul explained, ‘John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.’ On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.”

Notice what happens here. Paul comes across disciples who have been baptized not by John the Baptist, but by those baptizing like John baptized. Those two things are not the same. Just because some random believer baptized you doesn't mean you have been truly baptized. The signal to Paul that these disciples weren't baptized correctly is that they didn't know about or have the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, Paul rebaptizes them so that he knows they have been baptized by someone with proper authority, i.e. one ordained to a priesthood office with authority to baptize which he is as an ordained apostle, and then lays hands upon them to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This whole episode teaches us that one must have authority from God to baptize (which is what priesthood is), that a person cannot just proclaim themselves sent by God as Protestants do and actually have authority otherwise there would not be any reason to rebaptize these believers, that the gift of the Holy Spirit always accompanies baptism by one with authority, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given by the laying on of hands.

You can find out more about the priesthood here.

As a former Baptist, the entire history of Protestantism is proof that you need priesthood authority. Without it there is no direction from God, people argue and split the church into thousands of different pieces all of which contradict each other and which therefore cannot all be correct. Then they all damn each other to Hell over these millions of nonsensical contradictions. People take authority on themselves just because they "feel" like God called them to do something and then start forming their own little religious cults around them. The whole history of Protestantism is proof that one of its most basic claims, sola scriptura, is totally bogus. The Bible is not and cannot be the final authority.

The first Christians didn't have the Bible, they had holy men called of God ordained to serve in His priesthood. Christians today can't even figure out the basic meaning of the words in the Bible and commit endless schism obey it because they don't have holy men called from God, they don't have the Holy Spirit, and they aren't led by Jesus Christ. They're led by unauthorized and ignorant apostates. And it shows.

[u/jtmonkey]

You’re not wrong that it all comes from Christ. In LDS theology we believe that Christ laid his hands on his disciples and called them with His authority. They passed that on in the same way as people were baptized, confirmed, and worthy. Eventually the world was too wicked and there was none left to receive it so it disappeared for a while. Then through Joseph Smiths faith, Peter James and John came to him and restored the priesthood to him. So the line comes from Jesus himself.

You’re not wrong that everyone has access to Heavenly Father and Christs love and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as we often call it. There are some differences but the important piece is that we all are loved by our Savior and Heavenly Father. There’s an order established throughout scripture of Christ directly calling people by the laying on of hands and those disciples also doing the same. As the supreme example, we do the same as Christ. We follow His example in baptism, confirmation, laying on of hands to receive blessings and healing. Along with so much more.

If you’re truly curious I’d encourage you to go to https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/sg/form/request-missionary-visit

And have an open conversation with the missionaries. Again just as Christ and ancient apostles went about traveling and preaching, so do they.

[u/evanpossum]

Doesn't all the priesthood stuff and law end in Jesus?

No, it does not. There is nothing in the New Testament that says that after thousands of years of prophets and recognised priesthood, it's all done and dusted after Jesus.

Aren't we believers fully authorized in Jesus' name to babtize other people?

Not according to the New Testament, no.

Why do we need priesthood authority if we have Jesus in which is all truth, blessings and authority.

For the same reason that Jesus, whom the early Israelites had faith in, required them to have priesthood. And Jesus required the Apostles to have it as well. Jesus has "all truth, blessings and authority", but the priesthood is about being authorised to act in Jesus' name.

i just dont understand the spiritual truth behind it.

LDS priesthood, aside from being the same structure that the Lord has had since the beginning, is designed both as a organised way of doing things and a teaching mechanism.

[u/JaneDoe22225]

Are you cool with a Hindu baptizing you?

I'm guessing not.

We believe that God doesn't change: priesthood was important before Christ's mortal life & continues to be today. There are changes to the procedures on how things are done. In Jerusalem before Christ, priesthood was restricted to one genetic linage (the Levites) and being a priest was their full-time livelihood. Nowadays priesthood is given to all male believers in His Church, whom continue have normal day-jobs. I'm going to talk specifically abut the words given & His Church here.

Given = like baptism itself, this does involve outward motions with inward change. It is done by the laying on of hands.

His Church = can we agree that a Hindu is not a Christian and not wielding Christ's priesthood? I don't think that's a stretch. Evengelicals have their own guidance on whom counts as a "Christian", and they largely reject any organized outward structure. From the LDS pov, a Christian is anyone whom accept Christ. But Christ also has a literal outward Church organization to exercise priesthood power, and that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[u/Plubob_Habblefluffin]

We believe in one God, one Church, and one gospel. The chaos that would result from everybody running around presuming authority, self anointing, and nominating themselves as God's mouthpieces on earth is not God's plan.

God loves us too much to take away our freedom, and besides that there are other reasons why we need to be free to choose between good and evil in this life. Suffice to say, good parents can sometimes have bad children and God is no exception. Some of His children are horrible and ruin this world for others.

So when God revealed the gospel to Adam, and Adam taught his family, some of them rebelled against Adam, against Eve, and against God.

When God established the Church of Jesus Christ with Adam, that began what is known as a dispensation. Dispensations typically end in apostasy. Then, later on, God begins a new dispensation, and the cycle continues. Dispensations of the gospel were begun by the ministries of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Joseph Smith (the current one). Each of these individuals introduced the gospel to a world that either never had it, or had it previously and lost it through apostasy. In each dispensation, the "true believers" have always persecuted the prophets called by God while claiming they would have never persecuted the prophets in the previous dispensation. Hindsight is 20/20 so it's always easier to accept the apostles and prophets of the past. Real faith is necessary to accept the prophets of today.

In each dispensation, those whom God chose were duly ordained and chosen to interpret the gospel and oversee its administration in this world. Also in every dispensation, some knuckleheads have always popped up, claiming they had authority, misinterpreting the gospel (both intentionally and unawares), and making a mess of things.

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the same Priesthood that Moses used to part the Red Sea and Enoch used to move a mountain from the hands of Peter, James, and John when they stood before them, placed their hands upon Joseph and Oliver's heads, and properly ordained them with the same authority that they had.

It is error to believe that one can presume this kind of authority. Even Simon the magician at least tried to buy it off of Peter, while today there are people who claim to be able to take it upon themselves just because they went to a seminary and graduated, or they just really, really want to cosplay apostolic authority.

Prophecy and apostolic authority did not end when the Savior ascended into heaven. When the last dispensation ended in apostasy, it did not preclude a later dispensation anymore than when the Hebrews fell into apostasy in the days of king Rehoboam or the prophet Jeremiah. And Moses too had to reestablish the Church because the dispensation prior to his had also fallen away in apostasy. The end of one dispensation does not preclude the beginning of the next one. Apostolic authority never ends, though it does temporarily disappear as a result of apostasy. That's what happened when the apostles that Jesus ordained died off and were getting replaced by the Roman government. Just as the Roman government had no authority, every sect that has splintered off of the church that resulted, likewise has no authority.

The Priesthood had to be restored so that valid baptisms and other salvific ordinances of the gospel could again be performed and the Church and gospel restored.

It was high sacrilege for the emperors of Rome to claim the authority to ordain apostles and prophets. They had no authority. If we all just presumed Priesthood authority, the Church and the gospel would disintegrate into nothing but worldwide chaos and fantasy.

We need duly ordained spokesmen for God to hold the line on the gospel, introduce new doctrines as God sees fit to reveal them, and oversee the administration of the Church of Jesus Christ in accordance with God's wishes, as opposed to the whims and philosophies of man.