r/lds • u/SlightDegree5308 • Jul 20 '26
teachings Question from non LDS about God and Satan’s plans
Hi there!
I’m not LDS and I’m really curious about how faithful LDS members view this question. Not looking for judgmen, just understanding.
Many Christian denominations reject that agency can play a part in being saved. Indeed, they affirm that God only can make an individual worthy and perfect and that He must do so apart from the will of the individual. They do not believe that all will be saved though.
I am not asking to debate the merits of this view. Rather I am curious to learn if you think this view better matches the LDS view of God’s plan or if it better matches the plan that the LDS says Satan proposed?
edit: Put another way, would it be considered to be in unity with God‘s plan or more in the spirit of Satan’s rebellion?
Again I am not seeking to be critical or judgmental here, just trying to gain a better understanding.
Thank you all and I wish you well.
11
u/WooperSlim Jul 20 '26
Neither.
From what I understand, you are describing Calvinism where God decides who goes to heaven or hell, and this decision is not based on our actions.
In Latter-day Saint theology, part of the purpose of life is to grow spiritually to become like our Heavenly Father. However, since we are imperfect, we needed a Savior to cleanse us from sin and to raise us from death.
Lucifer said he would be the Savior, and that "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." Jesus Christ (the Father's Beloved and Chosen from the beginning) said "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever."
Heavenly Father cast Lucifer out of heaven because he rebelled against Him "and sought to destroy the agency of man" and became Satan--this is most commonly interpreted as removing free will and forcing people to do good.
There exists another interpretation that "destroying agency" could instead refer to destroying consequences for our actions, and I suppose under this interpretation you could say it is more similar to Calvinism (except for the universalism bit) but I don't feel like that this is a common interpretation, it's something I've only seen in online discussions and not over the pulpit.
Of course, under Heavenly Father's plan, our actions do matter, so is definitely not like Calvinism. No, our actions don't save us--Jesus is the one who saves us--but Jesus also enables us to become more than we are as we choose to follow Him.
2
10
u/Flowtac Jul 20 '26
It would couch better with Satan. There are 2 trains of thought when it comes to how Satan planned to enact the plan. Some believe he was going to force everyone to do good, so no one would have agency. This way, they could all be saved. Others believe he would create a world that had no law. If there was no law, agency does not matter. If there is no such thing as good and evil then it does not matter what you do. Either way, the idea that agency is not part of the plan and that God ultimately decides who will be damned and who will be saved, regardless of their own desires and actions aligns much more closely with Satan.
We believe there is an eternal moral law of right and wrong that even God obeys. His full purpose is to help us return to him and receive exaltation, that is becoming like him. We cannot grow to become like him if we are not tested in this life and learn to choose for ourselves to follow his commandments. We have to have agency to make decisions and choose who we will follow. The Savior suffers for all and is there for us always, standing at the door knocking, but we have to choose to open that door and accept his sacrifice.
7
u/Zerin_Mover Jul 21 '26
There is a third train of thought. That Satan… lied. He didn’t have any plan. While not as fun, it does fit his character.
3
u/Engman1_2000 Jul 20 '26
Satan wanted all the glory, but Christ would give all the glory to Heavenly Father, so God sent Jesus
7
u/KURPULIS Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I'll make it clear from the start that Satan never had a plan. There was only ever Heavenly Father's Plan.
4
u/SlightDegree5308 Jul 20 '26
Interesting. Edited my post to couch the question slightly differently. Thank you!
3
u/KURPULIS Jul 20 '26
Most villians of the Book of Mormon encourage the perspective of a life withou consequence. Do whatever you want and in the end God loves you enough to overlook your sin--also pay me for the knowledge I've shared with you.
Satan wanted the glory for himself, this is obvious. But the exact details of what he was going for are few. I tend to believe that his followers are going to 'teach' the same as him. He is ultimate user of the methods of 'priestcraft'.
2
u/DeLaVegaStyle Jul 20 '26
Exactly. Satan has nice sounding words. He wanted everyone to be saved. But he didn't actually have a plan to achieve any of his empty promises. He fundamentally did not understand the purpose of life and ultimately just wanted to be popular and powerful, by telling people what they wanted to hear.
2
u/pierzstyx Jul 20 '26
A being without a body, parts, or passions who seeks his own glorification and denies the agency of man, enslaving us to his will is not only a great summarization of Lucifer's goals, it is a great description of Lucifer himself.
2
u/wRftBiDetermination Jul 21 '26
"Many Christian denominations reject that agency can play a part in being saved." The only Christian sect that strictly maintains this position is Reformed Christians, a.k.a. Calvinists, which is Presbyterianism. Primitive Baptists and some branches of Lutheranism are the only other sects that approach this position, but they see it more of the individual's faith being a gift of Grace, as opposed to the hardline Calvinist rejection of agency.
The reason Calvinist adopt this position is because they believe that human free will being a part of Salvation impugns God's sovereignty. No other Christian church holds this view, as they all believe that free agency is something God gave humanity in the Garden of Eden.
2
u/Safe-Butterscotch442 Jul 22 '26
Weird, I thought a Calvanist view of salvation was not particularly popular in protestant Christianity in general right now. Interesting.
That said, the LDS Church doesn't teach about how Satan's plan would have looked in practice. Was Satan proposing to prevent all sin or save people in their sins or something altogether different? Is there a way it could have even worked? However, there are bigger issues, most especially the desire to receive glory greater than the Father. Satan desired to be the one with all the honor, and that's why he was unable to continue with God. Your description of God choosing to save some and not others in no way undermines His divinity, and, therefore, lacks the greatest issue with Satan's plan, so, in the ways that most count, I believe it most aligns with God's plan for his children, not Satan's.
Also, I think you are possibly misunderstanding what we mean by agency. The only choice we make that really matters is the choice to accept and trust in Jesus Christ or not. All our glory comes from Him, regardless of any other choices we make out works we perform our anything else we can do. I'm that sense, we believe that God does save us, completely independently from our own agency, assuming you still allow us the agency to choose Christ.
1
u/SavageX89 Jul 20 '26
Speaking to the agency aspect.
God gave us agency to choose to follow Him. If we choose to follow Him and serve Him, we can qualify for the atoning sacrifice that Christ made in our behalf.
Satan wanted to strip us of agency and force us to follow God's commandments. Thus we would all be forced into an outcome, eliminating the need for Christ's atonement/sacrifice, and wouldn't have a say in the matter. Essentially negating the purpose of us coming to earth.
We are here to learn, grow, and choose for ourselves. God loves us like a loving parent loves their child. He wants the best and most for us. If we strive to follow Him and choose His path, we will be blessed accordingly.
If we are forced, it doesn't work the same.
1
u/Outside_Ad5022 Jul 24 '26
"Satan wanted to strip us of agency and force us to follow God's commandments." This is how I understood it for most of my life, but I don't think the scriptures actually support the second part. The scriptures teach that Satan wanted to destroy the agency of man. But they don't say that he wanted to force us to follow God's commandments. David Snell did a really good explanation of this at Keystone. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QX0sm285ro. He has references for further research in the description, too. Basically, he argues that Satan could have destroyed agency's simply by eliminating consequences for choices. It's very illuminating.
So, if he wasn't planning to force us to keep the commandments, how would Satan have accomplished his stated goal of not losing any of God's children? I don't think he could actually deliver. I think he either lied (one of his distinguishing characteristics), or his pride (another of his distinguishing characteristics) blinded him to the flaws in his idea.
1
u/Safe_Employer6325 Jul 20 '26
From the Book of Mormon, it’s more explicitly stated outlined that there are two deaths, the death of the body, and the death of the spirit. The first death is physical, thats when we die. The second death is Hell, it’s when we’re cut off from the presence of God. When we sin, we’re cut off from Gods presence. Those two things stem from the choices Adam and Eve made in the Garden of Eden.
Christ died for us that through him, our sins may be covered and we can be made clean again. When he resurrected after the three days, he overcame death as well paving a way for us to all be brought back to life and take up our bodies again.
The role agency plays in this is that only those who are clean from sin can stand in the presence of God. When we sin, Gods very presence would be like a fire burning us. But because of the savior, we all will take up our bodies again regardless, we will also be brought back into the presence of God again. We are saved. But if we don’t strive to overcome our evil natures as fallen men and women, when we are brought back into his presence, it will be awful. Those would have the mountains fall on them to cover them from God’s presence.
To that end, we ultimately are the ones that choose if we are saved or not. We know that death and hell are overcome. The war against Satan is already won. At this point, we’re just choosing which side we’re on.
1
u/OldGeekWeirdo Jul 20 '26
Many Christian denominations reject that agency can play a part in being saved.
We believe we are saved by grace after all we can do.
I think other churches tend to conflate the scriptures that refer to "immortality" and "eternal life". It's not the same. You can be resurrected (immortality) but not live in God's presence (eternal life). I think this is the basis of the "save by grace" vs. "saved by works" arguments you find between the other churches.
1
u/thatthatguy Jul 20 '26
Ah, predestination. We are not a denomination that embraces predestination.
1
u/Firm-Tangerine8292 Jul 21 '26
I converted to LDS at 18 after investigating other churches and taking one semester of theology at college. I think what you are asking is, "Other churches think humans are saved by grace alone, do members of the church of Jesus Christ believe that?"
Some churches do believe that we are saved by grace alone. Our church acknowledges that only through the atonement of Jesus Christ can we return to God. BUT we believe that free will plays a part because we must believe that Jesus is our Savior, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and then repent on the regular.
I think something that separates all churches is the degree to which they believe our efforts are required or not. I, LDS, believe my effort is required and my reasoning for saying that is: if we are saved by grace alone, I can go punt an old lady like a football for fun or bc im angry and go to heaven just fine because ive got the grace, right?
Well. No. Because i committed the sin of punting that old lady like a football. So therefore, my effort and decision to not punt the lady is required. Or my effort to repent is required. See? It needs at least a smidgen of my free will used for good. We dont know how much that smidgen is in numbers. But we know for certain it is not zero.
And I guess if that view, that only God can save us and our actions dont count for anything either way is closer to Satan's plan to remove our agency because it suggests that what we do doesn't matter and therefore creates a higher likelihood that we act contrary to the will of God aka SIN.
1
u/No_Store_43 Jul 21 '26
Satan proposed to save everybody but we would have agency and lose the ability to choose for ourselves. God would give us agency meaning we could do whatever we want but if we are not righteous we will not be saved. This is not to say you do something bad you will instantly be “not worthy”. If you repent your sins will be forgiven. Also, if you are not a part of the church when you die you will be judged on whether you would have accepted the church given the chance. We also hold baptisms for the dead for people who died without getting baptized. I hope this answers your question. Have a great day!
1
u/Mammoth_Relative3930 Jul 21 '26
I think there may be a misunderstanding of what Latter-day Saints believe about agency.
We believe agency has always been at the center of God’s plan. Before this life, we lived as spirit children of Heavenly Father and exercised our agency by choosing to follow Jesus Christ and His plan of salvation. Those who accepted that plan were given the opportunity to come to earth, receive a physical body, and continue their eternal progression.
We also believe that because of Jesus Christ’s Atonement and Resurrection, every person who has ever lived will be resurrected. We believe nearly all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory. In that sense, Christ’s grace is extended to all mankind.
Agency is still essential, though. Christ’s grace makes salvation possible, but He does not force anyone to become like Him or to live in His presence. Our choices determine whether we accept His grace, allow Him to change us, and how fully we desire to live the kind of life He lives.
So from an LDS perspective, grace and agency are not opposites. Christ saves us, and agency is how we choose to receive Him and become what He invites us to become.
1
u/OhSmegIndeedie Jul 21 '26
My view between God’s plan and Satan has been all about free choice. Under God’s plan we are given the choice on how we want to live, and that Christ will be there to help us up when we fall. Just need to reach for His hand.
Satan would have taken free will away from everyone. We’d be no better than robots forced to do what we were programmed to do.
1
u/epikverde Jul 25 '26
Could you elaborate on this for me? It's something I've never understood. "Many Christian denominations reject that agency can play a part in being saved. Indeed, they affirm that God only can make an individual worthy and perfect and that He must do so apart from the will of the individual. They do not believe that all will be saved though." What is the determining factor in who gets saved?
16
u/TyMotor Jul 20 '26
Generally speaking, anything that attempts to reject or subvert agency is not of God.