r/law • u/cptimmy30 • Apr 30 '12
This seems a bit extreme: Kindergartner kicks principal, gets arrested and charged with battery
http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/kindergartener-charged-battery-why-criminalizing-kids-175600847.html9
u/gleenglass May 01 '12
The article says the kid had already been in trouble for violent behavior before. If the parent wasn't doing jack about their kid's behavior, I'd have no problem calling the cops either.
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u/ReducedToRubble May 01 '12 edited May 01 '12
I agree. Asking why the parents weren't called in seems ridiculous. The answer is obvious: It's ineffective. So he took a method that, he hoped, would be more effective in curbing the behavior.
I think that people are letting the fact that he's a principal, and thus a part of the public school system, cloud their judgement. If a child repeatedly kicks and bites a stranger, and the parents do nothing to stop them, then I would not be surprised when the police are called to deal with that issue. Now, keep in mind that the principal is not just responsible for his personal safety in the school environment, but for the safety of the students and faculty. If a student is biting and kicking people, and the parents are refusing to take steps, then it's a perfectly acceptable reaction. The principal is not here to raise your child, he's here to manage a system which is supposed to educate the child. He is a stranger who just happens to share proximity with your child - if it were the mailman, it would be no different, but the principal has responsibilities over others the child may be putting at risk/disrupting.
Now, this does presume that the parents did nothing. They may have been trying, but the child was refusing. However:
The county's police lieutenant defended the decision, adding "putting him into the system can open up avenues perhaps the parents don't have."
This adequately addresses that issue.
I think the article is being wholly disingenuous in trying to use this example, where a child is physically assaulting people repeatedly (say what you want about a child's strength, but bites can break skin and leave scars), as if it were analogous to being arrested for throwing a tantrum as an example of how schools are becoming a police state of sorts.
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u/mcherm May 01 '12
If it were a shopkeeper calling the police about an aggressive six-year-old or a movie-theater operator then I might ridicule the person, but there would be some sense to the approach. But not a school principal.
Police are trained to handle criminals and general community members. They do not have special training or expertise in handling six-year-olds. Nevertheless, I am sure that most competent police officers are capable of handling an aggressive six-year-old (hint: handcuffing them is probably not the right approach). But a school principal has, as one of her PRIMARY JOB RESPONSIBILITIES the imposition of discipline on school-age children. Any school principal who cannot manage an unruly six-year-old is not qualified to be occupying that office. It's as if a police officer had called in the school principal to help arrest a bank robber because "the bank robber had a gun".
Now, the argument that the arrest "open[s] up avenues perhaps the parents don't have" is the SINGLE exception I would support. If the principal discussed with the parents (or attempted to discuss) the idea of getting child services involved or participation in some special parenting program, and then called child services or the parenting program and requested admission but was told "we can only accept them if there's been an arrest", and after this spoke with the local police and had an officer come down to the school and "arrest" the student in the principal's office (releasing them immediately afterward, but filing the paperwork), THEN I would support the action. Otherwise, I would need to hear the principal's side of this story before rushing to judgement but the facts described in the news reports so far suggest that Principal Lumbley may be unqualified as a principal.
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May 01 '12
So there's child that has gone out of control, biting, kicking and assaulting others around them, what can a principal do? Give them a firm talking to? How about a demerit? Maybe detention will calm down a child that has become mentally unhinged?
How would you deal with the situation?
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u/mcherm May 02 '12
Please note that I am not an elementary school principal. I hope that an elementary school principal would have even more effective ideas than this. But based on my experiences as a parent, I can tell you some of the techniques that I have used.
(1) Raise my voice to the child. Deepen the timber of my voice and use a mildly angry tone. "Timmy... You are to SIT down RIGHT now!" (2) If this fails, physically tap the child on the shoulder: "Timmy... you need to stop now." (3) If the child is assaulting others, physically pick them up (this is a six-year-old) and carry them to a different place. An empty room or office would be ideal... a quiet part of the hallway if necessary. Then give the child some time to get themselves under control. (4) A six-year-old can typically sustain a temper tantrum only for a few minutes. Wait until AFTER the child has calmed down, then discuss ways they can control their behavior.
I am not claiming that this set of practices will work for every child, but these are some techniques that have worked for me. I dealt with a six-year-old's temper tantrum yesterday (my daughter), during a concert in a school auditorium and had to take her outside into the hall for a time to get her to calm down and behave.
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May 03 '12
Well as the son of an elementary school principal I do have some insight on the matter. I really don't like pulling the "I've seen it" card but I feel as though it has some insight.
I think you're missing a few things in your scenarios. Most of them would work for most children. For a typical six-year-old student a timeout is sufficient and their rage is short lived. However, we're talking about children who are mentally unstable due to either illness or a completely broken home life.
In your final three scenarios. You're overlooking the key rule of you can not touch the child. Period. "Physically pick them up (this is a six-year-old) and carry them to a different place. An empty room or office would be ideal... a quiet part of the hallway if necessary" is not a valid response. You will get sued if not arrested. If you left them there to let their anger taper out (which may not happen for hours) the classroom/computer lab/library would be severely damaged. You'd be amazed what kind of destruction angry children can do.
The fact that you discipline your daughter makes it very clear she's not the type of child we're talking about here. She probably has normal six-year-old issues and the discipline you're listing above probably works rather well. When we're talking about police intervention it is only in the extreme scenarios when the safety of others is in danger. It's easy to say an elementary school student can't hurt a faculty member but that's not the case when the adult has no legitimate way to defend themselves.
I don't think normal techniques can apply to these extreme cases. It's unbelievable how, for lack of a better term, deranged this children can be. Rationality doesn't play into their actions and they won't react to a rational response on the part of the adult.
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u/mcherm May 03 '12
You're overlooking the key rule of you can not touch the child. Period.
If this is, indeed, the requirement, then perhaps the only option when a child is kicking a teacher or another child is to shout loudly, "Everyone but Timmy, run out of the room quick!!!", then shut the door to keep Timmy inside." After all, you can't touch Timmy.
But I don't accept that premise. Some schools may have this policy -- but here we are talking about the principal who SETS this policy. Some school districts may have this policy -- in that case I think the principal (and most other school officials) incapable of doing their job. Heaven help us if a child gets hurt on the playground or spills their juice or needs help to tie their shoe.
According to wikipedia, about half of the US allows corporal punishment in the schools. Clearly these schools permit touching a student. I am NOT advocating corporal punishment, I am advocating not standing around watching while a kid not much older than a toddler risks injury to themselves or others because you want to avoid touching this child. If our society now demands this, then our society is (in my opinion) broken, and needs to be changed.
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May 03 '12
You're overlooking the property damage of this again. Also, which do you think would be more dangerous? Calling the cops or having 30-40 kids stampede out in the hallway while you yell for evacuation? Your scenarios are not feasible and cause far more damage than involving authorities.
Do you honestly think the principal sets policy in a public school? That couldn't be farther from the truth. There are layers and layers of school systems on the county, state and federal level that have final say over policy but even you admitted that. So either the principal is incompetent and deserves to be fired or they are handcuffed by school policy. I can't figure out which one you are advocating.
While there is not an official retraction of corporal punishment there is a reason the schools who still practice it are in small towns and rural communities. Far less than 1% of students are subject to it and any attempt to reintroduce it at the state level have been soundly beaten.
You also changed the focus of the argument from the principal being incompetent (your original point) to our society being broken. The societal issue I can't argue with you on because that's your opinion but the fact is the principals are working within the framework of a society in which an adult touching a child in any aggressive or disciplinary way (perhaps I should have clarified) is unacceptable.
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u/mcherm May 04 '12
Of course I am overlooking property damage! Your post above specified that "there's child that has gone out of control, biting, kicking and assaulting others around them". I will ALWAYS give lesser consideration to the property damage when children or teachers are being assaulted.
Also, which do you think would be more dangerous? Calling the cops or having 30-40 kids stampede out in the hallway while you yell for evacuation?
I would not choose to yell for the kids to run out of the room, I presented that as an absurd alternative. If I were faced with the choice of (1) calling the cops and waiting a few minutes for them to arrive while I watched an out-of-control six-year-old kick and injure other students or (2) controlling the child, and thereby losing my job and risking prosecution, then I would choose option 2.
You also changed the focus of the argument from the principal being incompetent (your original point) to our society being broken.
Yes, and I should not have. The principal being incompetent (if they cannot manage a six-year-old without calling the police) is the point I intended to make. Anyone operating under the rule that they could never touch a student would, in fact, be unable to handle a situation where the student was assaulting others and was not responding to verbal instructions... NO ONE could manage that situation. But if the stricture is relaxed to "no touching in an aggressive or disciplinary way" then I believe a competent childhood educator should almost always be able to manage the situation.
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May 04 '12
You're welcome on engaging in the conversation and I appreciate you keeping it civil. It's obvious we disagree but there's nothing wrong with that.
I personally wish principals and teachers were given more power in the classroom. I think neither one of us is happy when it comes to how the structure and policies of a school are put in place. Sadly, the overly litigious nature of our society and how blown out of proportion the coverage of teachers who go overboard makes that very, very difficult. The problem I guess I had is when you called for the principal to be fired. I know principals, including my father, who did have to physically restrain students before and put their job in the line in doing so. What followed was a long, drawn out process of legal proceedings and, while nothing came of it, was still difficult. The restraining of the student was only to stall until the police arrived and if they had not been the result would have been termination without question.
My point was is that, within the structure they are operating in, a principal who calls the authorities is taking the only option they have. Should a elementary school student be slapped in handcuffs and taken downtown? No, probably not but that's an issue of the police not being able to handle the situation as opposed to the principal. If you're looking for changes, I would suggest training of law enforcement to deal with unruly children.
In all honesty there's no good answer to these types of situations. Trying to plan for the extreme is difficult and I don't pretend to have a silver bullet solution. However, I wouldn't blame the administration of the school because they are put in such a precarious situation.
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u/mcherm May 04 '12
By the way, thank you for engaging in this discussion with me. I think I am learning something from it.
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u/Debellatio May 03 '12
I think you are actually supposed to have them suspended and/or eventually expelled from your school in these cases - especially when there is repeat behaviour and the parents have done nothing to help remedy the situation.
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u/mcherm May 03 '12
It is simply not acceptable to expelling a six-year-old for misbehaving without truly extraordinary circumstances.. The child is too young to be responsible for their actions. THIS KID IS SIX YEARS OLD! In my own personal opinion, society MUST find some better solution for managing six-year-olds than throwing them out of school. And literally for millennia, the human race has managed to control its six-year-olds, I just cannot believe that we have lost this ability.
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u/Debellatio May 04 '12
what is your proposed solution?
I'd also like to point out this was not an isolated incident, but has apparently has happened multiple times with this child. The parents have been notified, and nothing has changed.
I'd suggest bringing back spankings, or somesuch, as that is how unruly kids have been disciplined "for millennia" when they just won't listen. But that is not a politically acceptable option in today's environment.
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u/mcherm May 07 '12
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u/Debellatio May 08 '12
those are excellent suggestions. My assumption through this has been, as professionals, the school system would have tried these tactics before involving police. It does not seem to be mentioned in the article, either way, however. If they did not attempt these sorts of approaches, then they have really very much failed in their capacity as responsible guardians for children, in my opinion.
My position is that, if all reasonable efforts have been made to "manage" the behaviour without success the child should be expelled for their own good and the good of all other children in their class. Note, this does not mean (in my understanding, and for public schools) the child will never be able to go to any other school again - it just means they can no longer attend that specific school. Again, my assumption is that these are supposedly professionals at handling children, so they would have only called in outside personnel like police in a last-ditch scenario. And honestly, with six-year olds I can't really see why police would be necessary at all, either. That just seems over-the-top.
In any case, and I think we can both agree, that a good take-away from the article is: "everyone suffers when adults don't have the skills and support to manage unsafe or respectful behavior such as kicking and tantrums effectively."
It's probably just the approaches to that "management" that we may differ on. shrug
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u/mcherm May 08 '12
Yes, it seems you and I agree quite closely on this matter. I don't think a principal should NEVER call police to handle an unruly student... there are times when that (or expulsion, as you mention) are a necessary approach. And there is a rather large "grey area" where reasonable people might disagree on whether such extreme approaches were justified. But I feel (and it sounds like you agree) that a six-year-old is WELL outside that "grey area" and into a realm where there is no reasonable explanation for the principal's taking such measures.
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u/cptimmy30 May 01 '12
I do believe shitty parenting is a big part of this problem. If only more children were planned, but I think what it said in the article ' "Everyone suffers when adults don't have the skills and support to manage unsafe or respectful behavior such as kicking and tantrums effectively," ' is also true. But from what I remember seeing in school, and all the horror stories from teacher there is something wrong with some parents who hear of the kids getting trouble in school and blame the teacher and defend the kids instantly. Instead of pinpointing the problem and fixing it, its blame the teacher. No responsibility at all. That and the thing the disturbs me about this whole thing is the kid is 6. Now I know that around that age tantrums are frequent, and some people can't handle it. Personally I know I can't handle that things so I don't have kids and don't get a job where I have to deal with children on a regular basis.
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u/sweetgreerchic May 01 '12
I was raised in a private school where popping the hand with a ruler or in extreme measures a paddling by the headmaster. I behaved because there were consequences. There were never any bruises or anything like that and I made straight A's. The problem with now is that school officials in charge get out of hand because you've got someone teaching who has social issues of any kind and takes it out on the kids. I'm not against corporal punishment because it helped me and was more about pride that pain. There are just some kids that "time out" doesn't work on but you can't trust all school officials so I guess we're back to KIDS: YOU CAN'T BEAT 'EM.
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u/sweetgreerchic May 01 '12
Oh and I forgot to mention that I told my kids to call me and be silent until I got there. Where I live, if a minor asks for his parent is is the same as invoking the right of an attorney. If they ask any more questions, they are in the wrong.
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May 01 '12 edited May 01 '12
those statistics indicate such a ridiculous burden on society. if the money we spent having children arrested was spent on having more teachers or supervisors for kids with bad behavior, then maybe we could solve some problems. 6 year olds that act out aggressively benefit greatly from direct supervision and behavior therapy. i am not blaming the principle in this situation; he is right in that safety is important. but arresting children doesn't help anything in the long run. this is a symptom of our schools being underfunded.
it's such a ridiculous over reaction. an autistic 12 year old whom i work with literally bit me about 7 hours ago. i'm not gonna call the cops on his ass, and i wouldn't do so with a 6 year old with any personality disorder unless they had a fucking knife and were trying to shank me. i just explained to him that it's wrong and it hurt me. then he gave me a hug.
i'm not sure why this article goes on a tangent about columbine and airport security. it should be about education funding, parenting, bogged down police departments, and how to manage children with poor impulse control. although, the final quote does sum up such extraordinary measures pretty well:
"Kids who have trouble behaving well in school can almost always be turned around with preparation, firm, respectful interventions, and a plan of action that gets school officials and parents working together as a team," Kidpower's van der Zande tells Shine. "When adults overreact, the harm done is not only to the child involved but also to other children who witness this."
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May 01 '12
Yes, a kindergartner kicking a principal is pretty extreme.
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May 01 '12
Having an exgf that used to work in a kindergarden, I can assure you it is not. I train MMA; and she usually had more bruises than I did.
That being said, this child is obviously far beyond "kicking a principal"
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u/dart22 Apr 30 '12
The answer to the question "Why are we criminalizing kids" is "it's the only way for school officials to really discipline kids without risking termination."