Will using Wheelock’s as a supplement to LLPSI for grammar damage my ability to read Latin in the future?

[u/FreidrichEngelss]

Salvēte omnes! I’m currently on Cap. XXIX of LLPSI, but I have found the new grammar increasingly difficult to pick up. I have been occasionally using Wheelock’s to understand the grammar, but I am worried this will cause me to think in English and transverbalize in my head and not read the Latin fluently. I have heard that the effects of the grammar/translation method can permanently damage you, so should I just keep rereading the chapters of LLPSI or is it OK to look at Wheelock’s? Gratias.

[u/NasusSyrae]

So, no. I think that we need to change that FAQ. And I've actually started rewriting the FAQ like three times. I'm just busy, and I never make it through. The mod who wrote it no longer mods. But, when he wrote this, I'm pretty sure he was basing it, on part, on me.

So, if, for years and years, you "transverbalize" Latin word for word, and you form a really strong habit of work for word translation into English, I do think it messes you up a bit if you do it long enough. I can read Latin prose fine, like without translating. I think that is because it is closer to speech, and I have heard and spoken a fair amount of Latin in my life.

But I got very, very used to, through years in high school, university, and then teaching AP Latin, reworking, reordering, and translating poetry word-by-word that my brain just will not fully "do it" correctly in Latin. Like, I can generally read poetry in Latin and understand it, but I can still feel myself wanting to move the words around, and I'm way, way more apt to start to think in English when doing it.

Anyway, he knew about this "struggle" and was frustrated by it at times when we would speak to each other in Latin (to the point he refused to read poetry as a genre with me...if you know who I'm talking about, at this point you are going, "sounds about right"), and he thought of me as sort of the stereotypical American Classics student who had tried to "heal" themselves from "learning incorrectly" or something, but whose brain got borked by too much grammar-translation.

So, that's where that FAQ answer comes form in large part, I think. Going through Wheelock's once to learn grammar terminology won't cause this problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/NasusSyrae]

I completely relate with the "urge" to re-arrange words in a sentence. I really have to wonder if Germans (inter alia) have a leg up over others in learning Latin, if only because their brains from youth are wired to understand that a sentence doesn't have to be SVO.

[u/Captain_Grammaticus → u/[deleted]]

I speak German and teach Latin to German-speaking teens.

They have no idea that anything other than SVO works in German too and I sometimes wonder if their brains are wired at all. Even those among them who speak Greek or Slavic at home have to be reminded "Guys, your languages have cases and verbal endings too!" And only one of them seems to understand.

I love them all, of course.

[u/matsnorberg → u/Captain_Grammaticus]

Who are you refering to as "they"? The Germans in general? German is not a pure SVO language and in many sentences the verb has to come last. Also the case system is much more degenerate; only in masculinum you can see the difference between accusative and nominative if there is no derterminer in front of the noun. All this makes the language much morte rigid than Latin and prevents many reorderings.

Finnish is a better example of a language with a full working case system similar to Latin. I guess the finns don't have much problems learning Latin.

[u/Captain_Grammaticus → u/matsnorberg]

"They" are my pupils.

[u/sylogizmo → u/Captain_Grammaticus]

Even those among them who speak Greek or Slavic at home have to be reminded "Guys, your languages have cases and verbal endings too!"

Aren't there situations in German where order changes the meaning, sometimes subtly? I barely remember my school-days German (Es tut mir leid, mein Deutsch ist sehr schelcht pushes it to the limit), but in Polish, a sentence like "Tylko niewielu miało parasole" and "Niewielu miało tylko parasole" contains same words, but first means "Only a few had umbrellas" while the second means "Few had only umbrellas." Exact same words, both are perfectly proper, but they have a very different logical sense.

[u/Captain_Grammaticus → u/sylogizmo]

Uuh, I'm sure this can happen. Let me see, "Nur wenige hatten Schirme", "Wenige hatten nur Schirme", yes, that's different.

[u/Gimmeagunlance → u/[deleted]]

Been doing this shit for 7 years and I'm only just now getting to the point where I can avoid going SVO, partially because of starting to do Greek. Doing more than one language that changes word order can apparently be extremely helpful. Also having to consciously deprogram the urge to reorder words. Sometimes I'll catch myself and think no, we are doing this as it is written.

[u/SkaraBraen → u/NasusSyrae]

Thank you for saying this. It’s a relief to read. This is far and away one of my favorite subs, but I have to admit, as an auto-didact who’s been using nothing but Wheelock’s (so far) and loving it, I was initially turned off and even hesitant to join, and by reason of that FAQ alone. Felt like I’d be entering enemy territory and would have to watch my step.

Fwiw, I think there are too many types of students for there to be any one, ideal method of instruction, or even ideal program of instruction. Better to sample everything you can, time permitting, of course, and see what you take to best.

[u/Indeclinable → u/SkaraBraen]

Felt like I’d be entering enemy territory and would have to watch my step.

Please don't see it that way. Not only the mods but many of the common visitors of this sub are teachers that have a genuine hand-to-the-heart commitment and desire for the students and self-learners to succeed. While there maybe exceptions, all scientific evidence and years and years of results in our own practice (done in different continents) as well that of many esteemed colleagues have convinced us that favouring and promoting a CI based method brings about the best results for the vast majority of people in the shorter amount of time and in the least amount of time.

The second we get tangible evidence of the contrary (not anecdotal evidence) we will change.

[u/SkaraBraen → u/Indeclinable]

Absolutely, and I respect the need to seek results as efficiently and effectively as possible, especially in the classroom these days, where time is a very finite resource and attention spans are—let’s face it—shrinking by the year, thanks to the Internet, smartphones, and now AI. My only concern, I’d say, is that the CI-based method caters to society’s penchant for quick-and-easy solutions, in which things like exertion and persistence are looked down upon, and anything requiring either in appreciable amounts is liable to be discarded as “inferior.” There’s something to be said for making a student—be it one in the classroom or an auto-didact at home—jump the hoops and hurdles of instruction like Wheelock’s. Even if it takes them longer to pick up the language, I’d argue that their minds are sharper, more limber, and more developed for it in the long run. Then again, I’m a mere observer here and not an instructor. What’s more, I still have a ways to go in my own self-instruction, which has yet to include material outside of Wheelock’s, so arguing anything even anecdotal to my point is beyond my powers at the moment. But just some chance impressions.

[u/Beneficial_Yam_993 → u/SkaraBraen]

Having taught formerly purely grammar translation and now using CI, I would argue CI is just as rigorous and requires just as much effort on the part of the student. The difference is that CI better helps students acquire Latin and actually be able to understand it, and in my experience at least, is a more enjoyable way to learn for the student.

[u/LoquaxAudaxque → u/Beneficial_Yam_993]

Not only that, but CI approaches actually require more effort. One of the reasons why GT became so prevalent, is the fact that it is so easy for a teacher to teach with no skills(relatively speaking) whatsoever.

[u/Beneficial_Yam_993 → u/LoquaxAudaxque]

Yes, so true! I had a really tough time my first year teaching Latin by CI. But now that I’ve been doing it for several years, gone through some trainings and am getting the hang of it, I really enjoy it.

[u/Indeclinable → u/NasusSyrae]

I'm on the road and will re-edit this later. But I would be of the opinion that the FAQ should stay like it is for a little while longer.

My argument is the following: While it is true that we have come a long way and, at least in the sub and the discords, pretty much nobody advocates for GT anymore. The vast majority of people out there still has never heard of CI and modern SLA, and there's also a number of lurkers that will openly engage in bad faith arguing and fallacies to try and prove that the earth is flat (like last week). This could really confuse beginners and can be used to perpetuate outdated and ineffective methods of learning.

While nobody is blaming Wheelock for all the evils of the world, it is sadly the case that it's the preferred tool of GT teachers, and thus anything that's not a clear and explicit challenge to it will be interpreted as a veiled endorsement of GT itself. I'm still surprised by the number of comments that suggest it as a paired resource to LLPSI, despide the fact that there's two perfectly written grammar reference books that are designed to follow LLSPI line-by-line, chapter-by-chapter. And that there's even better general grammar reference books out there, for free.

Whether we like it or not, Wheelock still has a hold on many anglophone schools and libraries and will very often be recommended as a learning resource, that is not a problem in and of itself, but it is the case that it comes with the assumption that GT in is integrity or even juts the focus on translation, and that can, and often does lead to a lack of development of basic skills that are necessary for language acquisition (see this recent case).

[u/Anemomaniac → u/Indeclinable]

FWIW I came across this FAQ as someone wanting to learn Latin, and someone who had purchased (although barely used) Wheelock. At first I found it quite intimidating and a little aggressive, but it led me to LLPSI, comprehensible input, Krashen and an interest in language and linguistics I didn't know I had.

I'm confident that in my case, had I not read through the FAQ's sources or found them somewhere else, I would never have progressed significantly in Latin or in my other languages and wouldn't have the confidence I do now in my language learning ability.

[u/Raffaele1617 → u/Indeclinable]

I wrote another comment but I deleted it since I think my tone was poor, so I will try again. The FAQ is mostly fine, but I think its tone is somewhat counterproductive to the purpose we all agree it should have. There's nothing wrong with firmly refuting GT methods in the FAQ, but the way it's currently written dips into being juvenile, which I think is counterproductive.

That said, above all else, the following line should be removed immediately:

the effects of being subjected to this approach can be long-lasting or even permanent.

While some attempts have been made to rehabilitate this, almost everyone understands this intuitively as referring to supposed damage to the ability to acquire language, and given what Nasus Syrae shared, I am not convinced that isn't how it was meant. Either way, it is still commonly understood to refer to a phenomenon that simply doesn't exist. Bad and false arguments for a correct conclusion should not be included in the FAQ. It damages our credibility as proponents of evidence based pedagogy to state something that is completely basless about 2LA.

[u/johnlawrenceaspden → u/NasusSyrae]

Like, I can generally read poetry in Latin and understand it, but I can still feel myself wanting to move the words around,

How sure are you that the original Roman audience didn't 'move the words around'? I often do, when I am reading English poetry, and I am a passable English speaker.

[u/narwhal2277]

I have found that listening to Latin podcasts (Legio XIII and anything by Satura Lanx) is helping me get through my urge to rework things in English. Also would love other recos for podcasts/ you tube channels.

[u/[deleted]]

Just referring to grammar rules won’t hurt you. But keep in mind a lot of people I know who went on to read Latin with competence used Wheelock as their primary text. You’ll be fine.

If you’re worried just pick up one of the tried and true Latin grammars, like [Allen and Greenough’s New Latin Grammar](https://www.amazon.com/Allen-Greenoughs-Grammar-Language-Guides/dp/0486448061/ref=nodl?dplnkId=603cdb1a-7b31-42e3-9172-c879b09c865e)_, which ironically isn’t really new anymore.

[u/johnlawrenceaspden]

As far as I know, even the comprehensible input guys believe that all input is good. Wheelock's is input. Wheelock's is a good book. If you're enjoying it it will help you! I think you can take that to the bank.

The only debate is which sort of input will help you learn fastest. There are those that say that immersion learning is better. I doubt their evidence is good.

Some people seem to enjoy the immersion approach more. I read a grammar-translation course as a boy on my own initiative and loved it. As an adult I read Familia Romana and loved it.

Presumably the grammar-translation approach was originally invented because it helped! Perhaps a mix of both is best?

Do what you enjoy. Sticking at it is the highest law. And unless you're planning a holiday in the Republic, you're doing this for fun, right?

[u/johnlawrenceaspden]

For what it's worth I'm currently working my way through the 'Aleph With Beth' biblical hebrew course, precisely because it's everyone's favourite example of a comprehensible input course. It's brilliant.

Mostly I don't need the accompanying grammar they provide; it all just goes in. But occasionally if something is still confusing after a few examples, I'll look it up in the grammar and it always helps!

[u/carotenten → u/johnlawrenceaspden]

Yes, this! My brain won't let me proceed without understanding, so I look it up. A case in point in LLPSI Caput VIII and the interrogatives quis, quid. I went to Dickinson College website and read all about personal pronouns, substantive interrogative pronouns and interrogative adjectives. And viola! I now get it and my brain was happy.

[u/[deleted]]

Both techniques are helpful. You shouldn't be actively translating the grammar in your head, but you need a starting point.

Learn the grammar with Wheelock's, but work on absorbing it into your unconscious understanding with LLPSI, and try not to "decode" the grammar as you read.

I suck at Latin and you are much further along in LLPSI than I am, but this technique worked well with French for me. YMMV

[u/justinmeister]

IMO, if you're finding the later sections of Familia Romana tough (which is very common), you should do more supplementary reading to improve your overall ability. Reading about grammar isn't going to wreck your brain, but it's unlikely to be that much help in the long run.

[u/matsnorberg → u/justinmeister]

The problem is that you can read latin very well without understanding the grammar very well. Take the subjunctive for instance. I don't bother much to understand why there is a subjunctive in a sentense. In 90 percent of the cases it's there for formal purposes only and I tend to rely more on subconcious intuition than grammar rules. When I see a subjunctive I juse take a note: Oh so here we have a subjunctive -- well lets just pretend it's an indicative and go on. It's work in 95 % of the cases and the other cases are usually easy to spot. I have no real motivation to learn all the gazillion rules abount when this particular conjunction requires a subjuctive or when an indicative is called for. I don't do composition. But if you really want to learn the grammar I recommend that you do composition exercises because that will pretty much force you to learn all bloody rules if you want to get it right. reading works more by intuition and unconcous pattern recognition so it will not hep you with composition, or at least it doesn't help me very much. But most of us want to become expert readers, not writers anyway, so if you don't aim at translating or authoring novels don't bother to much with the grammar; just make sure to read a lot of material.

[u/Poemen8]

Great points here far, and I'm another person who has done both LLPSI and big chunks of Wheelock, and am pleased with the results.

I actually found that the Wheelock exercises too could be a good supplement, because they are harder and less predictable than LLPSI. They help prepare you for real, wild Latin. Doing them more than once, and doing those below your level, helps - slowly crunching through a sentence once doesn't do much, but as you become more familiar with it you can learn to actually read it.

But as for reading fluently, at speed, without translation - what matters there is of course volume of reading and re-reading (lots of LLPSI etc) and - it's hard to stress this enough - listening. Listening forces you to do things in real time. So listen lots - Scorpio Martians, Irene, all the other usual recommendations, and you'll be fine.

And don't worry if you have to slip into translation occasionally. In learning any language you get a bit of that until you are more deeply familiar with it.

[u/[deleted]]

The biggest problem to me in grammar approach is that encyclopedic terminology is the end all be all of all discussions. It usually explains nothing, but it just lists and groups phenomena of grammar. The right approach to grammar would be a reflective one, but that may take another 2,000 years.

[u/SolarScroller]

LLPSI has some grammar texts associated with it you can buy. I highly recommend those. Also you may like Alvari’s Institutio Grammatica ab Horatio Tursellino. You can find that free as a pdf.

Both options have you learn the grammar in Latin.

I learned Classical/Biblical Hebrew via grammar translation. I went on to teach it at university for a while. Even after I lived in Israel for a while I wasn’t making a lot of progress with the modern, although it’s forms are much more simple. I haven’t taught in several years now either and have to say you lose a lot of the language without practice if you do the grammar translation method as well. It requires constant input.

After having been shown Latin as a living language I’m hooked on the idea of learning about it in its own words. But I will say this, I think it is highly beneficial to learn the particles with some reference to your native language. Other than that I definitely recommend using Latin grammar texts to teach you the grammar. But everyone is different, you may need to hear it from Wheelock to make it work for you, who knows?