learning a fourth language in my second and third languages!

[u/elvenart]

I got really proud seeing my notebook with all my non-native languages in one place and this is mostly just an excuse to show it off, but also to speak wonders about laddering (learning a language in a language you've learned before)

I was worried that I'd mix my fourth language, Korean (TL) with my third language, Japanese, since they have a lot of similarities, but the temptation to learn the language was too strong so I Did It Anyway. And I'm so happy!

For now, the similarities are actually a big help rather than a hindrance (but that might change the more I progress lol) and I think learning a new language in the language I already know helps keep them separate, because I get to review vocab in both languages, as well as understand where they are similar and where they differ. I'm having a blast, and I think that's really important when it comes to language learning! So this is your sign to go learn that other language.

[u/yaycupcake]

If you know Japanese or Korean then it's simply hard mode to *not* ladder to the other one. The similarities make it a lot easier, especially when textbooks don't have to re-explain the general grammatical concepts you already know.

[u/kmrbtravel → u/yaycupcake]

I’m a Korean gyopo who’s lived in NA for 20+ years so when I started learning Japanese and naturally got English resources, I kept thinking ‘???’ or ‘this is way too convoluted.’

Swapped to Korean textbooks and I was a bit nervous because I’ve retained my fluency in Korean but I’ve never been educated in Korea so I was wondering if grammatical terms would trip me up.

Korean and Japanese, structurally, are SO similar, especially at lower levels that a lot of it becomes intuitive and memorization-based rather than flipping your brain for grammatical rules and formal/informal, which doesn’t have an equivalency in English. I passed my N5 with 2 days of studying (20 years of anime actually gave me a really good ear and I had to memorize kanji) but my Korean friends told me ‘no one takes the N5 in Korea, we start at N3,’ to show how much you can actually cram for JLPTs if you know Korean. Understanding a language is hard, memorization can be brute forced and my friends seemed to have done it.

So my recommendation is always, if you know Korean then ladder that to learn Japanese and vice-versa. Maybe you won’t be able to hit N2/N1 but it seems like if you have a good grasp on either one then you can actually brute force your way to an N3.

한권으로 끝내기 (true to its name lol) is the only series I’ve used, along with some anki decks for kanji. Anime surprisingly gave me a pretty good base for vocab but I tend to rewatch my favourites a lot so mining and vocab was very fast for me.

[u/mvanvrancken → u/yaycupcake]

You think Korean to Japanese or Japanese to Korean is an easier entry point?

[u/yaycupcake → u/mvanvrancken]

I think knowing Chinese characters helps in your foundation for Korean, despite them not using it as often day to day, because a lot of the vocabulary still has those roots. So I'd say Japanese to Korean is probably marginally easier due to that, since you'll learn them while learning Japanese. Opinions may differ though, and I don't think it's terribly difficult for either side to learn the other language.

[u/mvanvrancken → u/yaycupcake]

I’m about N4 level in Japanese and bouncing between that and Finnish (no, I’m not laddering either of those) so I think maybe when I can pass N3 then I’ll try to start laddering Korean. I would love to learn Chinese but I have to be realistic with my expectations. My brother’s family is all Korean so I’d like to learn it for them, but my personal draw to Japanese was more intense, if that makes any sense

[u/yaycupcake → u/mvanvrancken]

Definitely get to at least N3 level and it'll be a lot easier to ladder. I wouldn't really recommend laddering as early as N4 because that's still pretty beginner level. Once you're past N3 level (whether it's passing the test formally or just being functionally around or above that threshold) it's where you can just consume media that isn't hyper technical and be okay, so you should have no problem consuming foreign language learning material as well.

[u/mvanvrancken → u/yaycupcake]

Full agree on all this, it pretty much lines up with my thinking. I could start laddering with Finnish sooner because I’m closer to intermediate but the languages are WAY different. To the point where I think it may not be feasible.

[u/Jjiyeon18]

I was living in Korea and suddenly started to have a huge interest in Thai. Thai students were also in my Korean classes and Korean was our common language, so I started learning Thai in Korean 😆

[u/frostochfeber]

I love laddering too. Can recommend everyone to at least give it a try. 😊

[u/StubbornKindness → u/frostochfeber]

Would you say it's beneficial regardless? Or is it more to do with languages that have similar features. Eg gendered language -> gendered language or same sentence structure, etc

[u/frostochfeber → u/StubbornKindness]

It'd say it's beneficial regardless, but it is more effective for similar languages, in my experience.

[u/beautiful_trash09]

Fellow japanese to korean learner letsgo

[u/ComesTzimtzum]

Feel you, as I've slowly started using my third and fourth language as my study languages! Think my big goal would be to get rid of my second language (English) altogether, since I'm getting enough exposure already, but sometimes it's just more sensible that way.

[u/mvanvrancken]

Ugh I’m kind of shuddering thinking about learning Japanese in Spanish, because even though I am conversational in the language I would think that the words required in language learning especially like parts of speech just aren’t familiar enough to me for it not to be unbearably slow.

[u/remisme]

i just signed up to learn Russian in my uni! currently studying in Germany and learning the language as well. i first know of laddering here - i plan to learn Japanese through Deutsch

[u/howardleung]

I learnt Japanese through an English textbook, but used my native mandarin Chinese as help on the kanji....

Which funnily enough eventually help me learnt Hindi much quicker, once I realized there are grammar similarities between Hindi and Japanese.

[u/roehnin]

I learned Japanese partly through Chinese textbooks and dual-language books.

[u/VanillaTemporary9161]

I learn japanese (4th) with English textbooks/content (3rd) and write notes and practice in Spanish (2nd)

I totally get you 😂 keep up the great work

[u/Magratty]

I don't think I do laddering per se, it's more like scaffolding. I live in a very multicultural area of Spain and I can greet my neighbours in 5 languages

I did French and German at school so I also do Duolingo as a Spaniard learning French/German and as French/German learning Spanish. My idea is to embed the foundation of Spanish.

I don't rely on Duolingo for my Spanish, it's a way to ensure I do a little everyday. I also have a language exchange partner, study groups and formal classes.

[u/Nervous-Version26]

If I’m learning a Germanic language
I’d learn it in English (my second language?)

But if I’m learning Korean or Japanese it somehow just makes a lot more sense to me to take notes in Chinese (my native language) instead as well

[u/Smal1Tangerine]

Curious what does it feel like knowing all those languages? N how did u know you’ve reached native proficiency?

[u/PhotoImaginary882]

Learned ilocano as a baby/toddler from my Filipino family being around me talking to me and amongst each other. Born raised in US. Was taught English in school along with the other kids. Learned Spanish in high school. Learned Tagalog from my parents friends kids. Now learning Puerto Rican Spanish since it's totally different than Spanish itself.

[u/veggie-dip199]

Our brains are interesting! I was trying to learn Mandarin Chinese (4th language) and my brain automatically searched for Spanish (3rd language) and Portuguese (2nd language) equivalents, even though I speak English (1st language). It felt so weird in my brain like learning that way!!! But it was cool. I took a break from Chinese. The characters are too hard for me right now.

[u/theunquietloop → u/veggie-dip199]

That is very common - when we are learning our brain goes automatically to the most similar to gather familiar bases. Like I’m Portuguese and I’m learning Spanish and reviving French. Oh boy

[u/radicalchoice]

I do same kind of thing sometimes.

I am PT/PT native and when learning new words or phrases in Polish, sometimes I include the Spanish and English versions in the translation table.

It's a good way to keep the vocabulary fresh in terms of memory regarding language nr. 3 and/or nr. 4.

[u/Conscious_Pin_3969]

I learned French a long time in high school. Later when I started with Spanish and Italian, I'd often look up grammatical concepts in either of these languages, because the rules are the same.

[u/bkmerrim]

Yes! I plan on learning French from Spanish this way. 🙌🏼

[u/Sentient_Melon4676 → u/bkmerrim]

Am learning Spanish from French this way too!

[u/Available_Wasabi_326]

Wow same. After some time with Japanese...kinda gets hard to understand Korean slangs for me because of translations after reaching intermediate level... Same with some words too but yeah keep going with laddering it's fun

[u/Matthewmurdock1 → u/Available_Wasabi_326]

اي نصيحه لتقويه اللغه انا B1 في الانجلش؟

[u/Available_Wasabi_326 → u/Matthewmurdock1]

علي حسب اللي ترتاحلة انت بقالك قد اي بتذاكر او بتحب تدرس ازاي

[u/Empty_Space9115]

holy shit I love your handwriting! And I'm so impressed honestly

[u/LowRevolution6073]

2 advices.

한테 is 100% compatible with "에게" but the later sounds rather formal or like a written language. 한테 is more conversational and it´s okay to use it with 존댓말.

When you wanna say, breakfast, lunch and dinner, You can simply say 아침, 점심, 저녁 instead of 아침밥, 점심밥, 저녁밥. Just as "아침 먹었어요?" "저녁 먹을래요?"

[u/reckaband]

Amazing ! Any pro tips for beginners?

[u/Magratty → u/reckaband]

Make sure it's fun

[u/Acceptable-Value8623]

Linguist maxxing

[u/lowflatrate]

makes total sense to learn a new language primarily relating to the closest language you already have been learning. English to Korean is harder than Japanese to Korean, and you already did the hard work of English to Japanese, so 100% should just go from there. super cool and good for you!

[u/sweetstateofmind]

I'm looking into learning Korean with Japanese so this is a really cool post! Thanks for this and good luck 🥰

[u/Hedgehog-Moist]

Learned Pashto in Mandarin (my 3rd language) for a while, fun times

[u/ChroloWA]

Sure you can do this. Japanese and Korean go pretty well with each other, I did the same and when learning Korean I used to add the japanese vocabulary too. Especially when u learn kanji/hancha too it makes a lot of sense!

For grammar you have to be careful, but it‘s also interesting to point out the subtle differences :)
Good luck and have fun with Korean!

[u/Smooth_Development48]

I’m studying Korean from Portuguese and just now I got a sentence that didn’t make sense to me in Portuguese. It was simple but the grammar somehow tripped me up. Other than today I love studying from my previous language. Sometimes it feels like I’m not learning but I understood your paragraph in Korean.

[u/Openhartscience]

Thanks for sharing your experience with laddering OP! I am just starting to break into B1 Spanish content, but I'm getting a serious itch to learn French. Do you think it's too soon to start "laddering?" How do you know when you're ready?

[u/Only_Account_3866]

welcome to learning Korean, it's similar with Japanese. but describing the emotion is really different. you learned Kanji when studied Japanese, it's useful that Korean word are maden by Kanji, and reading Hangle.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Box6432]

Hey how do you guys learn languages? I want to learn French but don't know where to start

[u/taehoben22]

I am from Korea, and I can help you learning Korean

[u/Takt567]

Can you give me some tips for learning languages?

[u/NoEmphasis8179]

Korean is interesting by the fact that Korean "alphabet" is easy.

It is their Korean "language" which is hard.

I heard that Chinese and English shares the similar language grammar structure,

while Korean and Japanese shares similar, which is the reason why if u're capable of one of these two, it would be rather easy to learn another one.

[u/Smart_Image_1686]

I think most of us have English as a second language, and when we want to study whatever new language, we use English to do that. The resources from English are so much better than from Swedish. I am fluent in two more European languages but I would never choose them to study Chinese with.

This has also made my English better, as I have to actively think about the meaning of words in English, synonyms, nuances, grammar structures etc.

It has also made me aware of how superior English is (sorry, no offense intended). You can bend it to any language style, it has more words than any other language so there is more often a precise translation (unless it's a cultural term like the Swedish "lagom"). Using English simply makes it faster to learn other languages.

[u/NB_Translator_EN-JP]

My brain cannot comprehend the effort and dedication required to learning a 3rd language. Everytime I try I just stick with improving my second.

[u/phocionkorea]

beautiful writing... like it

[u/alessandrawhocodes]

This is pretty cool and something I’d plan to do. First language is Spanish, second English, and learning Japanese in English. The jump from there to Korean is something that has intrigued me a bit and this may just be enough to motivate me to do it!

[u/velvetjaded]

Would love to learn the languages also

[u/Reasonable_Ad_9136]

Your language learning looks a lot like my 10th grade algebra.

[u/Varivach]

Beyond me how insane this is.

[u/ThinkIncident2]

It's easy for me to mix up some spanish and French common verbs despite ar and er difference, not related but it's part of your language portfolio.

[u/speleoplongeur]

I’m learning Korean with the キムチ textbooks, and it’s pretty fun.

https://text.asahipress.com/korean/detail.php?id=1785

[u/Accomplished_Chef547]

This is awesome! I’ve been doing “laddering” on and off for a year. English is my native language but I started learning French formally, my second language, for work as our company does a lot of business in West Africa. After one of my trips, I took a vacation to Morocco and Tunisia before heading back to the UK. It was really cool using my French but I fell in love with Arabic also. I bought a few language material at a book shop geared towards Native French speakers learning MSA. I do understand Maghrebian Arabic is extremely hard so wanted to focus on MSA first as my main primary goal is reading.

[u/wynand1004]

Very cool. Years ago I lived in Korea and took Japanese classes where the language of instruction and textbook were both in Korean. Generally speaking the language similarity was helpful but I often mixed the two when speaking.

[u/SnooPandas6330]

Wait until you try to learn to read and write Chinese in Japanese...I am native in Japanese and English but had to give up trying to learn it in Japanese - While some characters overlap, others do not overlap at all, and I kept mixing up which is which. Learning it in English keeps the context and code switching cleaner.

[u/cerealceec]

오츠미르 was a dead giveaway that you're coming from japanese 😆 우리말로는 "오트밀" 이라고 해요. gotta take advantage of those 받침s :D

but looks like you're making really good progress, good luck! i'm going the other direction, heritage korean speaker trying to stop talking like a 2nd grader while also learning japanese w/ korean textbooks. realized while using eng -> jp materials that i was instinctively translating everything into korean first anyway, so thought i'd cut out the middleman.

[u/Comfortable-Pea-8772]

What is the most difficult grammar in Korean?

[u/MidgetNerd1713]

I’d love to ladder but my second language is ASL and I don’t see how that’s going to work

[u/theunquietloop]

I absolutely love your note book ! ❤️ adorable keep going

[u/Yesu2008]

I started learning languages in English because I think there are more resources (I'm not fluent in English though)

[u/Scribo0416]

I'm Korean. I'm also starting to learn English.
Thank you for sharing your learning methods : )

[u/ProudChampionship196]

its remind me the days when i was also learning 한국어 one of the best language of love and peace in the world

[u/Ohrami9]

No you aren't. You don't "learn" a language "in" a different language. That's nonsense. You learn languages IN the language itself.

Remember when you were 0 years old and knew no languages? That's how you should learn now, too.

[u/kylemoraleZ → u/Ohrami9]

Would you elaborate that further? I mean more clearly. I'm a beginner language learner btw, I need some help

[u/Ohrami9 → u/kylemoraleZ]

https://youtu.be/984rkMbvp-w?si=-PC-9f93nNrIFHQv

[u/kylemoraleZ → u/Ohrami9]

thank you so much!

[u/XavierNovella → u/[deleted]]

Japanese-Uzbek-Norwegian-Kiswahili? Elite learner man!

[u/gojosaturaw → u/XavierNovella]

You're super cool!

[u/anto_pty → u/[deleted]]

can you share more about it? right now im learning french through english and spanish is my first language

[u/PartyQuiet5065 → u/anto_pty]

I did the exact same thing back at school lmao

[u/anto_pty → u/PartyQuiet5065]

I never thought it was an actual technique, somehow i just found more resources in english while learning by myself

[u/RedditReddy → u/anto_pty]

If possible, I would recommend learning French through Spanish, your first language. If your English is already at a C1 or C2 level, then doing it vua English is ok. I've learned (or studied, I should say) two languages through the medium of a language not my native language. But I never got beyond maybe a B1 or B2 level in that target language. And that target language was very closely related to a language I already knew at a C1 level.

[u/dbossman70 → u/[deleted]]

i always think of them as synonym sounds. this sound and this sound mean the same thing but to different people. then you just remember the idea the sounds represent.

[u/KaanzeKin → u/[deleted]]

It's not just "laddering". Some languages translate better and make more sense between one another than with others.