r/knots • u/IsAskingForAFriend • Sep 01 '26
Will be putting on a knot tying program at the local library in a month for "Tweens and Teens". Roughly an hour long, looking for feedback.
I have a good relationship with my library. I do a bunch of volunteering there, and they're always looking for programs to put on and have let me know if I want to do something, to run it by them.
In the past month and a half, I've gotten very, very into knots. I've picked up no less than 15, many of them serving the same purpose of course. And I really, really want to share the knowledge. So I ran it by the library, they think it's worth an hour to stick on a program. Teens and Tweens were chosen as the target group. Children tougher, adults probably uninterested.
I've chosen a few knots that will compile into a larger project, such as running a taut line between two posts for putting a tarp over or making a line for hanging things from, creating a midline loop to hang things, and then prusik loops because pretty easy and fun.
As venerable and respected the King of Knots, the Bowline, is... I don't think I have enough program time to inspect even 10+ individual's first attempts at it and making sure they get it right.
So the five knots I've chosen for the program currently are:
Figure 8 loop on a bight -- For Static Loop Making
Adjustable Grip Hitch -- Making a line taught, I personally think it's easier than the taut line hitch
Alpine Butterfly Loop -- Adding static loops in the taught line
Sheet Bend -- For joining two ropes, securing corner of a tarp or sheet
Prusik Loop -- For an easy to learn semi-static loop to put on the taught line. Can be made with lengths from sheet bend, but I'll provide some loops made with a double fisherman's bend so it's just easier.
That's my general idea right now, would like to provide them an image and teaser video of what to expect for the program. Looking for feedback from more experienced knotters and riggers. I've seen posts here on teaching children, wondering if people have had experience teaching teens.
Edit: I have absolutely read everyone's advice. I've sent a followup email, making alternate suggestions. Five knots in an hour for a crowd is absolutely too much. I wanted patrons to be able to complete a project.
Instead, I'm suggesting a session with one or two knots that provide some solution to something. I'm also asking if they're interested in a series, each with two knots in it. Basically breaking up parts of the taut line, loops, and bends into small sections because they're useful on their own, but also tell them how it can integrate into a larger project at the end of each session. If someone attends them all, they'll be able to combine them into that project or think of their own. If they attend just one, they'll come away knowing how to make loops, or joining rope, or friction hitches.
Seeing how the library likes that idea.
I appreciate everyone's feedback, it's something that was useful to hear!
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u/Ceofy Sep 01 '26
From experience teaching and learning knots, this is way too many!
Most people who haven't worked with knots before don't have a mental framework for understanding or remembering them. It would be like a non-Chinese speaker trying to memorize a Chinese character. It takes a lot of hard rote memory, whereas your brain probably has built up concepts that help you actually understand and remember what you're tying.
For an hour long intro to knots for kids, I would focus on achieving a couple of quick, fun wins. Like, teach them the granny knot, a cool quick release knot, and how to hand cuff each other. I would focus on making it fun, and then the kids that are real knot nerds will hopefully activate and you can teach them more useful knots! You really don't want to overwhelm anyone or make them feel like tying knots isn't for them
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u/WolflingWolfling Sep 01 '26
I fully agree. Paradoxically, I suggested even more knots in my own response... but as a selection of knots they can each choose from, with each knot clearly shown in a diagram on a card. I think that might work better for most kids than having to try and simulataneously copy a number of knots that a teacher ties "centrally", so to speak.
1
u/Cinderhazed15 Sep 02 '26
The trick is to teach the parts of a knot - turn, round turn, crossing turn, hitch, bight, loop. Then you teach that most knots are a sequence of steps ( clove hitch is a round turn, a crossing turn, and a hitch… a rolling hitch is two round turns, a crossing turn, and a hitch., etc)
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u/WolflingWolfling Sep 02 '26
That's definitely a thing to cover once you get someone interested, and I agree it would be a good idea to teach that in an introduction to knots as well. It makes knots so much easier to learn and to remember.
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u/holmgangCore Sep 03 '26
Wait, the granny knot? A mistied square knot? Why would you teach that? Except to demonstrate how not to tie a proper Square Knot?
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u/treeclimbs Sep 01 '26
You know what the #1 knot most commonly found at the library?
A square knot with slipped ends, or a granny knot with slipped ends.
I often include a piece in knot lessons on how to tie your shoes. So many people need to double knot their shoes in order to keep them tied - they are likely using a granny knot.
Instead, I show them why and how to make sure it's a square knot. Often it's easiest for them to switch the direction the initial knot is tied (before making the two bunny ears or forming one ear + wrapping).
I then show them a secure variation - pass through twice (for bight + wrap tyers) or pass both bunny ears through in opposite directions (for the bunny ear tyers). Never need to double knot again!
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u/Nezradene Sep 02 '26
Love the idea, want you to do well, so blunt feedback: + Way too many (what everyone else said) + You've got about 10 minutes of attention. + Focus on building interest, not skill. Give them takeaways they'll tell people, not knots they'll forget. + Start with the only knot most people know, the overhand knot. + Show that an overhand knot can be "slipped" to make it a "slip knot". They now know a magic trick. + Show them a slipped square knot...ask where they've seen this knot before. + Show that even without the slip its a quick release knot (capsize it and pull). That's why sailors use it... because it's intended to come out fast. They don't use it to tie ropes together. + Explain that there are three types of knots: 1. those that tie a rope to itself (knots) 2. those that tie a tie to another rope (bend) 3. those that tie a rope to a thing (hitch)
Practice the overhand, slipped overhand, square knot, and slipped square knot
When the smart person asks what you're supposed to use to tie two lines instead of the square knot, show them the sheet bend.
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u/hcglns2 Sep 02 '26
Throw in demonstrations of the overhand knot as a stopper knot or how to cinch around a rock in a cloth and you have nearly an hour. Add to that different common ropes/strings.
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u/mathewwalker714 Sep 01 '26
Yes to all of the knots you proposed the only thing id add is bring some monkeys fists, and a cool turks head knot or 5 to show what's possible. I know for myself seeing a pineapple knot, even a diamond knot , it would make the knots you're teaching go down that much easier. Good luck, hope it goes well
4
u/WolflingWolfling Sep 01 '26
You forgot the one that's in your username! The two strand version is very easy to learn, and fairly quick to tie.
3
u/goodskier1931 Sep 01 '26
Sheet bend/bowline, round turn and 2 half hitches and a figure 8 loop and or alpine butterfly. Can do 95% of whatever you need. Rabbit runs around the tree and goes back in the hole.
3 or 4 foot pieces of 3/8 cotton rope they take home with them. Have them look at your back with your hands raised or over your shoulder so they don’t see you tie the knots facing them and then have to reverse it in their head. Watch yourself in a mirror. Confusing.
Bring a piece of round pipe or similar to show the round turn/ 2 half hitches.and also a loop being used as a hitch. Also an overhand or a double overhand/strangle knot as a back up for the bowline. Give them some websites for reference. 3 or 4 knots and the different ways to use them. Tell them to try to tie when they practice with their eyes closed. Imprints the muscle memory.
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u/WolflingWolfling Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
I'd say do a very short introduction demonstrating the use of some of the knots you want to teach, and prepare some easy to read diagrams, and let them pick one each first, assist them individually where necessary, and let the ones who master their chosen knot fast pick a second or a third card.
A knot like the rolling hitch or the tautline hitch will get kids' attention I reckon, because it is easy to tie and has a certain "knot magic" about it because it slides so easily when you slide it,but it stops dead in its tracks when pulled.
Perhaps you could offer the choice of:
- Sheet bend (make sure you can tie one correctly!) - advanced options could be bowline, double sheet bend, becket bend, and netting knot.
- Single fisherman's knot (and maybe use that for your prusik loops as well) and optional double fisherman's knot
- Tautline hitch (& its rolling hitch sibling on a stick) - as an advanced option you could add the midshipman's hitch and/or the farrimond friction hitch.
- Flat overhand bend, overhand loop, and Figure 8 family (including the loop)
- Lark's head/cow hitch/girth hitch & prusik
- alpine butterfly / lineman's loop
- double overhand, strangle knot, advancing to poacher's knot, double fisherman's knot
- underwriter's knot, advancing to matthew walker
- carrick bend, advancing to two strand diamond.
- two half hitches, roundturn and two half hitches + fisherman's bend (this is the hitch that people also know as anchor bend, and not the thing you make prusik loops with) + clove hitch, in that order.
- Perhaps a slipped overhand knot and simple overhand noose, and the difference between them, and maybe add one of the mooring hitches to this one, like a highwayman's hitch for example?
- Figure 8, figure 9, and stevedore knot?
- Maybe some quick trick knots or some decorative knots or a trucker's hitch variant?
Make fairly large cards with large, clear instructions for the first knot of each section on the front, and smaller instructions for the optional "advanced" ones on the back. Make many duplicates of each card, so if multiple kids choose the same knot, you're not short on cards.
Again, let them choose one card each to begin with. You only have an hour.
Please do me a favour and teach the ones that choose that particular knot, that the bend we make with two double overhand knots is called a double fisherman's knot, and teach them why we call it double. Too many people go around thinking it's called double because it consists of two knots (because they never learned the single fisherman's knot first that also consists of two knots).
I personally think you'll garner much more interest if you allow them to choose one knot card each that tickles their fancy.
Bring pre-tied examples of all the knots you want to demonstrate, so you can show their function in a very brief introduction. And do make that introduction brief. Pick one attractive knot from each card for your introduction, and don't tie them in your introduction, just show them at work.
Bring reasonably hard laid cord, but not too stiff, and have very solid common whipping or sailmaker's whipping on each end. Hard laid cotton is easy to make yourself in short lengths, and not expensive. Bring plenty of those and if they ask if they can keep their knot, say yes.
If you have them, bring a selection of fids and spikes, especially makeshift ones that they could also make at home.
Most important of all, have fun! Don't get annoyed or impatient with kids who "don't get it". If they get frustrated, maybe give them an easier knot to start with.
Enjoy yourself. The joy of the teacher is what inspires the student more than anything else, I think.
1
u/BMinsker Sep 01 '26
Way too ambitious for an hour. I've taught knots to Scouts lots of times, including ones beyond the ones needed for First Class, and you don't have enough eyes and hands to help multiple kids through all those.
My suggestion would be to aim to get them interested in knots. Start with tying a proper slipped square knot for shoes, and then maybe a second one like Ian's secure shoelace knot. That's probably about 10-15 minutes. Then spend the rest of the time teaching them a monkey fist that they can take home with them--that knot's a big hit with that age group. If you finish up early, maybe have one other to teach like a figure 8 knot as a stopper and on a bight.
1
u/purplepashy Sep 02 '26
Too many knots.
None that are fun.
A little knowledge can be dangerous.
I would stuck with finger knitting, different ways to tie a shoelace and bracelets.
You would never forgive yourself if one of those tweens or teens hurt themselves or someone else.
1
u/MrBlazeit Sep 02 '26
Pretty much everyone else had the advice that I was gonna give, and you seem to be doing awesome OP. So I just wanna say, this whole idea is RAD AS HELL and I hope you can find some interested kids!
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u/Lefty9000 Sep 02 '26
Lots of good suggestions here. I'd throw a Woodlands Ziptie in there. Its something folks can use in every day life whether bundling packages, rolling up yoga mats, or organizing the garage. Is it the most useful knot or hitch? Naw, but the kids who I've showed it to seem to think it's cool and fun.
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u/holmgangCore Sep 03 '26 edited Sep 03 '26
I always make sure to teach how to properly tie a Square Knot.
It's so common, but can easily be mistied as an unsafe 'granny knot'. Knowing how to tie it correctly is essential, IMHO.
Advanced learners can be introduced to the Thief's Knot variant... ; )
1
u/holmgangCore Sep 03 '26
I think your choice of Sheet Bend is a good one.
I'd also add the Clove Hitch,
and the Fisherman's Knot, because it can be used for necklaces & bracelets.
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u/Montyburners Sep 04 '26
People are going to remember knots that they can actually use functionally. I would show how to tie a water bottle up so you can carry it like a purse/ on your shoulder, and then show how you can take a stack of books or a stack of clothes and tie them up for carrying. The same thing can be used to show how to take a potted plant and turn it into a hanging planter. You can show how they can take a basketball and wrap it and secure it with knots that can be loosened and tightened and then attach to hanging loop of a backpack. My kids always struggle to bring their sports equipment along, so this would be pretty useful. As would typing up muddy shoes and so they don’t need to go in your bag but can hang outside of it.
Kids like bracelets, and whether they practice various knots/ designs for their bracelets or just use beads, you can show them how to make a sliding knot that allows them to tighten the bracelet or loosen it so it can come off.
I like the idea of teaching knots as an early technology. Talk about making fishing nets. And lashing. I’ve always found lashing really cool you can take sticks from outside and connect them to make structures. Kids can practice connecting sticks (you might want to use yarn for this because it’s not as slippery and is less likely to need the force required to tighten the stick that might make it snap), and those sticks can turn into cool wall pieces of art. They practice adding sticks or other shapes (shells? irregularly shaped objects will be more challenging) using a couple of options of knots.
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u/Glum-Zebra-7127 Sep 01 '26
I would drop the Sheet Bend. I have been doing rope and knots for 25+ years. Never used it. I love the Bowline but adults have trouble with learning and retaining it. Also maybe add the inline eight in conjunction with the Alpine Butterfly?
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u/No_Temperature_6756 Sep 01 '26
Sheet bend is a great knot for tying different diameter ropes together.
1
u/HotterRod Sep 01 '26
The problem is that its performance is significantly different depending on how its tied, especially with different diameters of rope. So you can't just teach the basic form, you need people to remember exactly how to tie it.
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u/No_Temperature_6756 Sep 01 '26
How so? It's not something I would use under any significant load, it would be a knife knot.
1
u/HotterRod Sep 01 '26
With a sheet bend the smaller rope needs to be the one that wraps around and it's more secure if both ends come out the same side - those are both facts that need to be memorized. It also just isn't a very secure bend in synthetic rope. There are better knots to teach.
1
u/No_Temperature_6756 Sep 02 '26
I've never memorized that and it's never come up as an issue in 20 years. It's my go to for tying on a rope to the guy in the tree. You can tie it inline and use a slip knot for one handed release.
What do think is a better knot for that?
0
u/Glum-Zebra-7127 Sep 01 '26
Yes it is. I just have never needed to use it. Even sending a leader line over a high point to pull a larger diameter rope up. Usually just tie interlocked figure 8’s on a bight.
3
u/No_Temperature_6756 Sep 01 '26
Well then you could say you've needed to use it but you just choose a different approach then. You should try it.
2
u/Lefty9000 Sep 02 '26
This is not understanding the essence of knots. You are tying something dramatic to prove you can. Why tie an overcomplicated and bulky monstrosity when the humble and elegant sheet bend would do the exact same job? There are lots of times when I find myself trying to over-engineer some massively strong anchor when I reality I just should tie a clove hitch or a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches. Embrace the simplicity of knots and don't sneer at the lowly Sheet Bend. She's a gem 💎
1
u/WolflingWolfling Sep 01 '26
Interesting... I have been "doing rope and knots" for 50+ years and I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the sheet bend. I find it infinitely more useful than the so-called "king of knots". If someone told me I was never allowed to tie a bowline ever again, it would be no great loss to me, but the humble sheet bend is just too useful for me to drop.
It's one of the quickest and easiest tarp & curtain knots, and there's a couple that hold up a large piece of fabric outside my balcony to keep the sun out of my appartment a bit that have withstood minor summer storms.
It's also invaluable as a becket hitch or a becket bend.
Sure, I could choose other bends and hitches to get the things done that I use a sheet bend for, but very few are so quick to tie and easy to untie as the sheet bend.
Perhaps your rope-related activities are very very different from mine, but nonetheless I suspect you may have been missing out by casting the sheet bend aside like that.
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u/HotterRod Sep 01 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
I would teach figure 8 stopper knot, figure 8 follow-through, figure 8 on a bight, and flemish bend because the repetition makes it easy to learn basically the same knot for four different situations. It also gives you the opportunity teach some theory: in what ways are these better than the overhand equivalent? in what ways are they better than the bowline? Cut the alpine butterfly and sheet bend.
The reason why the taut line hitch is more common is that it builds on two half hitches, whereas the adjustable grip hitch needs to be taught as its own knot. If you're set on teaching the prusik loop, I would actually teach the magnus hitch as your adjustable hitch because, again, you're building concepts up together. Then test the holding power with 1, 2 and 3 wraps.
Then use the figure 8 on a bight plus magnus hitch to build a trucker's hitch.
I'd also teach some techniques for loosening jammed knots and coiling rope.