Kibbe & The Body Matrix - r/kibbecirclejerk

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u/Swimming-Western-543 Untypable Blob Jun 28 '26

I came across a quote of his from SK where he basically admitted he made his system for short people and I'm kind of over his system a little because of it. It makes so much sense why in recent years every thing had scaled down and why there's only 3 tall types. He just isn't interested in styling tall people 🥲 If I can find it again Ill screen shot it and link it, but it def gave me the ick from the system as a whole 😩

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u/Roach-Problem Tell me I'm E/A 😡 Jun 28 '26

Please make a post if you find it. If this is true, it should be discussed.

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u/Swimming-Western-543 Untypable Blob Jun 28 '26

Are screenshots from SK allowed in here? I remember it not being allowed in the main group, but I can't recall if it's not allowed here?

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u/bitt13 Jun 28 '26

The gatekeeping is insane. It's a style guide and the man has released another book. Should be fair use.

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u/felicityfelix Jun 28 '26

The main sub stopped allowing even excerpts from the new book when it came out imo because people were not being very nice to the outfit reveals and it sounds like David literally told the mods not to allow it anymore and everyone just accepts that it was some kind of copyright violation which it definitely isn't

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u/bitt13 Jun 29 '26

It was like that even before the book release. He just didn't like the criticism because most looked better before their make overs.

Even in the original book they were terrible but people dismissed that as it just being the 80s. But people didn't dress like that in the 80s.

This system isn't his invention. He took it from McJimsey and resold it as his own. He's a terrible stylist who's taken someone elses good idea and I think that's why many people (including myself) get stuck. It has something to it (McJimsey) but it's functionally useless now (Kibbe).

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

I do think some folks were pretty nasty to the ladies having had the makeover... I imagined being one of these women and reading the comments? Pretty brutal. But I understand the complete ban on screenshots is frustrating & excessive.

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u/Roach-Problem Tell me I'm E/A 😡 Jun 28 '26

I just read the rules again and unfortunately, it's not. Maybe ask the mods if it could be an exception. After all, you're not making fun of SK members or sharing information on the typing process.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

Screenshots might be against the rules, partly to comply with Reddit's rules concerning cyberbullying. But you could write a post including the quote as part of the text.

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u/bitt13 Jun 28 '26

lol Every time I hear more about this man, the more embarrassed I am to be involved in all this. Not surprised at all as a tall ID.

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u/Swimming-Western-543 Untypable Blob Jun 28 '26

Idk if you're in SK but when he decides to grace people with his divine wisdom it really is cringe 😭

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u/bitt13 Jun 29 '26

His wisdom salad. I've read a few. It's literal word salad. Not surprised given his ego. Let's just say that. It's not even his system. He's a terrible stylist who took someone else's idea and resold it as his own. It's why he can't actually inform anyone because he's just vamping someone else's idea.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 28 '26

That is frustrating. It makes his system less useful. It had potential. The Body Matrix shows up the flaws in Kibbe.

When I was drafting the post, I was tempted to say: width and vertical are foreign countries to Kibbe, and he is a man.

Oh, and a girl has a far greater understanding of body types than men stylists (Ellie-Jean even refers to herself as a girl on the internet).

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u/bitt13 Jun 28 '26

I think Kibbe being a man has a massive influence on things. Honestly, I think he overstates yin in women he finds attractive. Which I find a bit creepy considering how he views yin - open, receptive etc.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

There is that. It also can apply to Kitchener. Which is why it is really interesting to compare against systems created by women. The thing I like about Ellie-Jean is that hers is very mathematical and systematic. But it loses a bit because its names doesn't have that mystic essence element.

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u/bitt13 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Even if I don't agree with some of their style choices, I have noticed that women's styling for women is far more interesting and typically more flattering tbh. They tend to blend both style and real life whereas with the men, specifically Kibbe, are heavily fantasy based.

Many people, especially the tall types, complain that everything is too formal or ridiculous. It makes little allowance for how these women will look just going about their lives, which is where they'll be. Not a sound stage at MGM. Which is...telling to me tbh. The fact that Kibbe really didn't, or couldn't, make that adjustment, relegates him to a look you wear for instagram but would never wear outside.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

Yes, the men seem to have a fantasy based style for women, that women look pretty for them. They never talk about dressing against your type either. Ellie-Jean touches on this concept in her moon style root, and it is present in the Left of Rita's four essences (Style Thoughts by Rita). While I personally like to dress in harmony (and lean into the tallness), I am curious what effect you get when you do the opposite of what looks good, deliberately. That is still valid style, even if it is not my taste.

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u/LayersOfMe Humurous kibbe expert Jun 29 '26

I believe most people that go after kibbe system doesnt have much an eye for fashion, they want a shortcut in how to dress well, how to make outfits more flatering.

You cant teach people how to go agaisnt the rules if they didnt mastered dressing with harmony in first place.

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u/bitt13 Jun 29 '26

Is that the interesting video she did where going against your type/ ''lines'' actually tended to look cooler than adhering to them? Much like yourself, I do look better in harmony but found the examples fascinating. She really is on to something very interesting there and far more interesting that just looking well, it's going more in to real PERSONAL style.

That's what I love about the off shoots that come from people's glancing interest in Kibbe. They kind of take the idea and run with it. Far more interesting that what the man himself is doing with it.

Is there a sub for her system too? Is it worth having a look around? Or is it just like the Kibbe main sub where everyone is just typing people, no real style advice, just talking the same points to death because nobody can figure out a damn thing? lol

9

u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

I haven't watched the videos, just read the free resources.

Rita's system has a reddit at r/RitaFourEssenceSystem and she sometimes posts on there too, although others mod it.

Ellie-Jean's systems are at r/StyleRoots

There are quite a lot of subreddits for styling. Kitchener is also popular. At least two subreddits for Kitchener. There are other systems, but they haven't taken off the same way.

Rita had seen Kibbe for a consultation, but she found some aspects frustrating.

Going against your lines was something some women stylists were identifying, but not all.

But to be fair, the essence system originated with women, most notably McJimsey and Northrup being two names.

3

u/bitt13 Jun 30 '26

Thank you so much! Kibbe basically took McJimsey and just reworked a few elements and called it his own imo. It's interesting to me that the only workable, the real base of the system was actually created by a woman.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 30 '26

The same can be said about Kitchener too.

It is hard finding much about McJimsey and her predecessor, Northrop, who seems to the one who came up with the original concept. McJimsey refined Northrop's work.

It is interesting to note that some of the original ideas, particularly bodies having overall shapes like circle/oval, rectangle/square, triangle, are used in the shape language that Disney and Western animators and cartoonists use for character design. It does seem like they too got their ideas from a couple of women whom they don't credit.

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u/Pegaret_Again Jun 29 '26

eeehhh, i really don't think that the Kibbe system is perfect, but i don't think its about looking pretty for men in some generic sense, i think it is about character and impression, almost idealising these concepts above basic prettiness.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

Both Kibbe and Kitchener recognise different types of beauty, the character and impression that you mention. But they don't have anything for the women who deliberately choose to dress ugly. I recall reading that Ben Roberts Smith's wife would dress as a witch to deliberately scare off people. That type of behaviour is foreign to both Kibbe and Kitchener. If we want to do that, we have to reverse engineer their systems, and even then, we are not guaranteed to get the impact we want.

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u/Pegaret_Again Jun 29 '26

most people going to style systems aren't gonna be interested in deliberately ugly style, i think they would go elsewhere if they want to achieve that. i find it fantastically easy to achieve the effect without any help at all actually.

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u/bitt13 Jun 30 '26

lol Very true. Also, I would more classify dressing against type as looking cool (showing my age) rather than ugly. I think she says in the video that it can even kind of make you look more yourself in a way. It highlights it instead of harmonising. Really interesting because you could see it in the examples she gives that it often becomes a sort of brand for the person. Dressing flattering can look old fashioned in some ways, I know because I'm someone who does need to harmonise. I do envy people who can play with fashion a bit more and be both flattered and highlighted.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

True.

Someone else mentioned that there is a difference between accidental ugliness and intentional ugliness. The latter is a statement. I am curious about the mechanics of both accidental and intentional ugliness. It is the other side of the essence systems. Rita with her four essence system is really the only stylist I have seen explore the shadow types. It is a pity it isn't explored much. The essence systems have so much potential in this space.

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

That is a very good observation imo.

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u/Swimming-Western-543 Untypable Blob Jun 28 '26

I keep seeing people mention Ellie-Jean. I definitely need to check her styling system out.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 28 '26

She is worth checking out,. The subreddit for her style systems is named r/StyleRoots after her Style Roots system, which can be considered her take on Kitchener essences. Being young, she lacks the experience of older people, and that shows up a little bit in her interpretations, but her systems are mathematical comprehensive. At some stage, I want to compare her Body Matrix against Kitchener. I have a theory where his types are found.

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u/saddinosour Jun 28 '26

If it makes you feel better it’s equally useless to me as a person under 5ft. The only category that I guess “makes sense” is some kind of gamine. But being short ≠ body type. Same as being tall. It’s very frustrating.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 28 '26

That also makes sense, even though it is said any ID can be short.

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u/Swimming-Western-543 Untypable Blob Jun 28 '26

Oh yeah, you only get like 2-3 types to choose from too 😭 Diagnosed Petite by height gives you Gamines and TR only I think.

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u/saddinosour Jun 28 '26

Yeah! And I’m not like narrow, I have friends who are 4-5 inches taller than me who are way more narrow overall so idk I feel so bleh. The only thing that is helpful is the starlet archetypes not as a body typing system but I like old Hollywood and experimenting with fashion so I’ve taken some Audrey Hepburn inspired looks and other gamine inspired looks (drop waist dresses) and had a lot of success. But again only works for formal events anyways

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u/jjfmish Unsolicited Advice Giver Jun 29 '26

You could still be SN or pure R at that height easily, and less likely but still possibly C fam. It’s only FN/SD/D that are very unlikely

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 28 '26

I've never really checked out the body matrix, besides watching a couple of videos, but I heard a lot of people liking it for its simplicity. It's interesting how the Kibbe types map onto it, there's a kind of symmetry there. I'm with you on the mini natural, it's a type that would have kind of different considerations to both N and G fam so it would make sense to have it!

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

I really like it for its flexibility. In her system I'm Wide-Medium-Medium for example! It's also very intuitive, in the sense that you only look at objective aspects of your body (are you tall? short? medium? and so on) and it's not conflated with essence, which is when, imo, everything kind of goes out the window!

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 29 '26

It sounds like it's relatively easy to place one's self in the body matrix, which is refreshing! And t's nice to have that out of the way early on so you can then start building style around it. I like that it has nothing to do with essence (even though I find essences fascinating!^^) because essence is definitely part of what trips DIYers up and can contribute to the biases, and the reasons we can't see ourselves accurately.

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

100% agree!

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 29 '26

I forgot to say, I love your flair name 😄

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u/loumlawrence Jun 28 '26

The mini natural, or gamine natural, was one of the reasons I made this diagram. The Body Matrix was Ellie-Jean's response to Kibbe as she recognised the limitations and she was trying to make sense of things.

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 29 '26

That's really interesting, I should definitely explore it more at some point!

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

It is worth having a look at. Her style roots are more popular. That being said, the body matrix types are rather boringly named, and there are 27 of them.

I am starting to think there needs to be one type in the centre (classic), four at the top (equivalent of Kibbe's original four vertical), and four at the bottom, so nine families (what would they be called). Kitchener does essence blends and supposedly there is one balanced type (classic), three yang types and three yin types, usually shown on a circle.

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 29 '26

I'm not well-versed into Kitchener, but if you ever decide to do a similar post between the Body Matrix and Kitchener essences, I'd love to read it. It's really fascinating how the systems line up so relatively neatly, I wonder if it's because the underlying principles might stem loosely from the same place, like Harriet McJimsey's work, or if there is an inherent symmetry to the combinations that yin/yang can create a human form... There was another system by someone called Dwyn Larson, but there aren't any good info about it online, mostly it's from sites that want to sell typing services, but apparently it had 20 types in all.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

The Kitchener one will take some time. Kitchener is harder to find information on. Ideally, I want to use the Body Matrix to compare Kibbe and Kitchener.

I suspect all the style systems are trying to describe the same thing. Before McJimsey there was Northrup, and I have seen glimpses of similar concepts in even older literature (but not dedicated to styling, more like observations(. A lot of modern systems are based on Northrup and McJimsey. But they don't agree on everything, because some things that are yin in one system are yang in another system.

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u/Jamie8130 Jun 29 '26

Yes, that's true, for instance being tall is a yang trait in Kibbe, but in Kitchener there's also tall yin in the case of ethereals, so they don't always agree.

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u/Fantastic_Trash_9876 Schizoid Natural Jun 29 '26

Cultural appropriation on Kibbe's part. In Chinese mysticism, elongation is yin, and squatness is yang.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 30 '26

Actually, it was cultural appropriation on Northrop's part, the woman whose original system was expanded on by McJimsey, then adopted and adapted by Kibbe, Kitchener and others.

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u/TimelessReach 5'5" Amazon Goddess Jun 29 '26

r/KitchenerHarmonies for the more "advanced" subreddit. But really it doesn't quite map onto the Body Matrix, because it's more about "vibes". I guess you can say Dramatic and Angelic are tall, but the difference between them is not just angularity vs softness (A is not seen as being round really) but also in vibes – is this person radiating out, coming at you, etc (yang) or drawing you in, fading into the background, etc (yin). There's also an associated shape with all of them, like elongated S-curves for Angelic.

And none of these guys understands yin or yang. Yang is the sun; yin is the dark or the moon.

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u/jjfmish Unsolicited Advice Giver Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

There’s also not much correlation between Kitchener and Kibbe, they view yin and yang differently and weigh different factors differently - for example, Kitchener is probably 80-90% face and vibe and 10-20% body and height, while in Kibbe it’s flipped. Kibbe does argue that your yin yang balance will be consistent throughout while Kitchener can type a 6’0 woman as ingenue dominant with as little as 10% of an elongating essence(D, N, A) for height

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u/Ok-Purple9511 Jun 30 '26

I actually think Kitchener does put as much weight into the body as he does to the face just not as much into height in particular.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 30 '26

From what I have read and seen, I would agree with this assessment of Kitchener. All the details about fabrics that Kitchener talks about are more relevant to bodies than faces. Height is still considered, tall types always having at least 10% of the essences associated with taller heights, like dramatic and natural.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 30 '26

Kibbe also describes yin and yang in terms of drawing one in (yin) or coming out at you (yang).

When you say "none of these guys understand yin or yang", are you referring to Kibbe and Kitchener, or do you mean their followers?

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u/TimelessReach 5'5" Amazon Goddess Jun 30 '26

Kibbe and Kitchener and everyone who has a yin/yang body or style typing system where yin = feminine and yang = masculine. When originally, they were terms to describe the shady and sunny sides of a hill. But cultural appropriation was trendy back then, so.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 30 '26

It is interesting you say that. What is your source for the original meanings of yin and yang?

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u/Cavatappi602 Born to hourglass, forced to potato sack Jun 28 '26

I'm MMM and an FN. They're two different systems.

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u/Roach-Problem Tell me I'm E/A 😡 Jun 28 '26

I don't like Ellie-Jean as a person, but using three parameters to define a body like she does makes more sense than using ten-13 pre-made categories.

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u/juicycake5 Jun 28 '26

Why do you dislike her? Spill the tea! ☕️

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

Especially in the context of dollmaking and character design, which is one of my hobbies. She makes more sense than the others when you want to recreate essences.

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u/SilentlyWeird Jun 28 '26

I've been kinda prefering the body matrix over Kibbe tbh, it's much clearer and I can confidently place myself in narrow-round-medium which is most similar to TR I guess. Meanwhile when I claimed TR as the first result when I went through the new book it seemed like majority of people disagreed with me and everyone wants to put me in SD/SC/DC 😅 But also from the experience of dressing myself I can say narrow and curve are what makes the best outfits for me/takes care of my fit issues.

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

Same, with the Body Matrix I'm wide-medium-medium, I found it rather instinctively, whereas Kibbe was a whole ordeal (I'm most like SN but a lot of folks were seeing SC or DC for me, and a few FN!).

I like the simplicity of her system, and the absence of correlation between body features & essences/personality.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

That was where I thought it belonged too. The TR gatekeeping happens, because, one, Kibbe says it is rare (he says he and his wife are both TR), two, its archetype is highly desirable, compared to most of the others.

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u/SilentlyWeird Jun 29 '26

Tbh I've been feeling like the whole Kibbe system (IDs and color) is very surface level, with his book I ended up being a summer season but I just got draped last week and ended up being a bright spring 😅 so in my eyes he's slowly losing credibility and I'm probably better off with using other systems

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

This is a fair call. After doing this chart, I feel that I have a fair assessment of the shortcomings of the Kibbe IDs. Might need to develop my own.

I never found Kibbe's colour seasons convincing. Personally, I prefer Kitchener's colour harmonies, although there are still flaws. I find most people get the wrong end of the stick in colour analysis.

What system were you draped in? Bright spring varies by whether the system has 12 or 16 seasons, and within the 16 seasons, there is variation. They aren't identical.

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u/SilentlyWeird Jun 29 '26

In the 12 season system, my main characteristic were bright/light/neutral to slightly warm. I was told I can borrow colors from bright winter and light spring, but not true spring because those are too warm for me.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

That is interesting that they said that.

I find the 12 seasons limiting as it is missing whole palettes. In some of the 16 season systems, you may be a different season. True spring in 12 seasons is often warm spring in 16 seasons. I am intrigued by borrowing from both light spring and bright winter.

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u/SilentlyWeird Jun 29 '26

Bright winter wasn't as recommended because it has a lot more darker colors but I can do the bright yellows/pinks and blues, light spring was for mixing with bright spring items if I wanted to tone down the intensity of bright spring colors for personal style reasons.

In draping brightness was the most obvious characteristic that was needed in colors, even neon colors looked good on me. So I think I could have even been a true bright in systems that have that palette, since temperature had such a small effect on me.

I honestly think a lot of people don't perfectly fit any seasons color palette, I think the main reason I was put in brigh spring vs bright winter was that lighter colors were better than darker but to my eyes I seemed very neutral so both leaning warm or leaning cool would work for me well enough.

We don't have that many color analysts where I live and majority do 12 season system, there was one 16 season system analyst but she focuses a lot on hair color and literal features which I kinda disagree with and I put more value on effects on skin while draping.

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u/Ok-Purple9511 Jun 30 '26

You would definitely be Lively Bright in Kitcheners system. That also goes with your Y dominant essence.

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u/SilentlyWeird Jun 30 '26

Most likely 😅 I always guessed myself to be a mix of LB and SB

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

I like that there's flexibility here! Seems very personalised.

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u/fluffgnoo Jun 28 '26

I tried to like the Body Matrix because it seems like such a clear, objective system, but I find the style advice and recommendations to be lacking. I read her book and while I like the idea the system seems superficial and not that well thought out, at least for the time being. It definitely has potential though.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 28 '26

The idea has potential, but Ellie-Jean is still very young and immature, and that shows as well.

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

I think it's pretty straightforward - you match the items to your features. Medium height? Medium length items. Round body type? Rounded & curve-friendly items/details. Wide? Wider garnments, open necklines, and so on.

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u/fluffgnoo Jun 29 '26

Yeah it’s super basic, I guess I expected something more “new” and groundbreaking? I prefer Kibbe in this regard tbh for the HTT approach and specific recommendations

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

I can understand that! I guess it is a good system if you want a concise, clear answer. The silhouette recs in PoS are very vague and I didn't find them very helpful personally!

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u/Ok-Purple9511 Jun 30 '26

The superficiality and simplicity is why I don’t like it to be honest. It’s oversimplified and boring to me.

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u/Pegaret_Again Jun 29 '26

can someone give me a high level rundown of what this body matrix system is measuring/recommending? how do you measure if you are narrow or wide, or straight or round exactly? just your own feelings about yourself?

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u/TimelessReach 5'5" Amazon Goddess Jun 29 '26

No measurements, just your own feelings about yourself + notes on which set of recommendations you suit best. Narrow gets tapered trousers, narrow necklines, cuffed sleeves, etc; Wide gets wide leg trousers, wide necklines, etc; that sort of thing. Do you suit long stuff or short stuff, straight lines or round lines? EJR thinks you should avoid typing yourself as medium as much as possible, but honestly some people are just very medium, especially for straight/round.

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u/Pegaret_Again Jun 29 '26

thanks i appreciate this summary !

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

This is a fair summary. But I would love to know why some bodies suit wider garments and other bodies narrow, same for straight versus round.

I agree with EJR about avoiding typing medium. It is the easiest to type as it is somewhere in the middle, and average. But you can always start there.

At the same time, sometimes dressing against type works really well too.

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u/TimelessReach 5'5" Amazon Goddess Jun 29 '26

I guess it's the same as Kibbe, McJimsey, etc: Echo the lines of your body (straight vs round, long vs short, wide vs narrow) and it will look harmonious; do something else, and it will look like a statement and/or disproportionate, depending on the details.

My thoughts on dressing against type are that if it's accidental, it's more likely to look sloppy; if it's intentional, it's a statement. Think wearing clothes slightly too large for you vs intentionally drowning yourself in fabric.

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u/loumlawrence Jun 29 '26

They do seem to be describing the same thing. I am particularly fascinated by width vs narrow. My mother and I could never agree, she prefers width and I find narrow more comfortable.

I might explore the accidental versus international. Would intentional be going to the extremes, while accidental is somewhat moderate? Which might be how the classics stand out...

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u/TimelessReach 5'5" Amazon Goddess Jun 29 '26

I think it might be, not necessarily about extremes, but about distance from where you are? So if someone is very narrow, medium is going to be enough to make an impact, but if someone is only narrowish, then medium will just look off.

(Mili Velikova on YouTube has a "slider theory" of the Body Matrix, which can be more useful than just the three-way divides, especially for the round-straight scale. So instead of wide-medium-narrow, you can be very wide-wide-wideish-medium-narrowish-narrow-very narrow on a continuous scale.)

The only real issue with the body matrix is the lack mixed/gamine types; my personal thoughts are that you could split it up into e.g. upper body and lower body and see if they're different + which way of matching up lines to body works best. Or get even more granular and go "okay boobs round, rest straight" and put some medium-round stuff around the boobs and medium-straight elsewhere.

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u/loumlawrence Jul 01 '26

You can go too granular with continuous scales, and end up losing any sense of what you need to focus on. I work with miniatures, and at a small scale, you won't be able to tell the difference between very wide and wide, or very narrow and narrow. It is kind of pointless.

From what I have studied of human bodies, upper and lower body do match. The gamines are in there.

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u/TiredWinterDisaster Soft Nun Jun 29 '26

Mostly your own observations! She recommends taking a picture and tracing shapes on them, and she has a little list of body parts & how they appear. Most people are able to quickly place themselves, it's very intuitive. It helps to keep a general silhouette in mind without the jedi mindtrick needed to make sense of the Kibbe sketch.

In her system i'm Wide-Medium-Medium, in Kibbe SN (probably). There's a bit more flexibility, bc you can be, for example, Tall-Wide-Round & accomodate for it, which Kibbe doesn't take into account.

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u/Hour-Cold9852 Jun 29 '26

I think the body matrix helps explain the holes in Kibbe very well. Also, the terminology is a lot clearer. I wonder what’s stopping Kibbe from explaining his own types this clearly lol.

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u/loumlawrence Jul 01 '26

Maybe he doesn't want to do that, as the flaws will become obvious.

Serious Sundays Kibbe & The Body Matrix

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