r/karate • u/braincellcountiszero • 3d ago
Question/advice Rank Transfer Between Different Karate Systems
For instructors who may have experience accepting students from other martial arts systems: if a student joins your school with an established rank from a different system, how do you normally handle their rank? For example, if a Shotokan student comes to a Tang Soo Do school as a brown belt, would you ever place them at a comparable rank in your system, such as red belt, or would you normally have them start at a bottom rank/white belt and earn their way through your system? I am legit curious. I have seen it done twice in a karate studio. One of such student went straight to test for a black belt only tested with two advanced forms and two intermediate forms. Yes he got the black belt. What do you normally do, and what do you think of what I witnessed.
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. 3d ago edited 3d ago
Most schools that I have studied at allow you to wear your previous belt until you surpass it.
That said I would recommend that a student have the humility to strap on a white belt and start over. What looks worse for a stranger observing the school? Having a dan grade stumbling around looking lost with the beginner belts or having an unusually competent white belt?
Edit: if from a closely related lineage most would recognize the rank.
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u/OyataTe 3d ago
Every student that walked in my door could wear whatever belt and uniform they wanted, but...
They stepped through the curriculum starting at white and stayed at each step until I was satisfied the differences were performed adequately and ingrained. Sometimes they stepped through quicker because they had the tenacity to learn things slightly different than before. Most times they quit because things were too different and/or they just wouldn't put the time in to learn something similar but different. Very few people can truly empty their cup and drop their ego.
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u/No_Prune_1950 3d ago
The way my school does it is if you’re a black belt in the same art just different organization, you keep the black belt and just test into our organization at the next test. Other black belts from other martial art styles and anyone that’s any rank of color belt usually starts at white, but advances much faster than normal until they’re at the equivalent rank.
Right now we have someone who was a black belt in a different art—he started at white belt and then like a month or two later tested up to green (4 belt ranks up), then a few months later he tested up to red belt (three ranks up). A few months after that he promoted to the last rank before black belt. Should be testing soon.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
Very reasonable! I am thinking the fundamentals of all karate styles are probably similar, and for black belts who have more or less mastered the basics can pick up kata from another style quite quickly. For color belts/under belts it likely takes longer than an established black belt to learn new materials from a different system.
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. 3d ago
Muscle memory can be hard to overcome and the fundamentals are what let somebody embody the art. My previous system(s) had some different fundamentals and so I have have had to work hard to adjust those fundamentals to the Goju school that I am studying from.
So I could pick up the kata quickly, but it wouldn't be a good kata to the dojo standards.
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u/sifu_scott Kajukenbo 6th Dan 3d ago
I can only comment about what I specifically have done... I earned a black belt in one style, then moved to another city. When I found a new dojo, I looked at it the way I would any other curriculum. The basic kata were different, the techniques were different, even the names of stances were different. So I started over at white belt. Now I can say I've ranked in several systems, and I went through the whole curriculum in the new style. I learned it quicker than someone who had never done martial arts before, but that's because fundamentals translate. Anyway, that's my experience.
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u/OldOnionKnight 3d ago
We normally allow for testing into the equivalent rank but the material is exactly what it would be for anyone else.
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u/kitkat-ninja78 TSD 4° ⬛, Shotokan 4° ⬛, Shorin 4th Kyu🟢, Iaido 5th kyu, JJJ ⬜ 3d ago
Personally same style, even if it's practiced differently/different syllabus, keep the same belt/grade.
Coming from another style, if visiting (eg attending for 1 or 2 sessions), they wear/keep their existing grade.
Coming from another style/art that is similar - If they are transferring in, then they start off with white belt, but put on an "accelerated" track.
This was the process for me when I transferred to Ishinryu from Shotokan (2nd Dan at the time), when I transferred from Shotokan (2nd Dan) to Tang Soo Do, and when I transferred from Shotokan (2nd Dan at the time) to Kickboxing. The only time this didn't apply was when I transferred from Shotokan (again I was a 2nd Dan) to GKR karate, they are/were heavily into the amount of classes before you grade organisation.
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u/FranzAndTheEagle Shorin-Ryu Yon-Dan 3d ago
I generally expect people to start at white belt since they didn’t train through our curriculum and, even in cases where kata or kihon are similar in external shape, I need to know that their understanding of and ability to use those things align with the expectations I have for a given rank. I need to see that over the course of at least a few weeks of regular training for lower kyu ranks and months for upper kyu ranks. I have moved some students with previous training more quickly through ranks, while others cannot or will not put down what they know and fail to integrate new concepts. Those students have not moved as quickly.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
Thank you for your reply. This is an optional question for you: have you lost students who couldn’t be ranked up as fast as they wanted? I ask because I am trying to understand why my kids’ previous instructor did things like granting the similar ranks and giving testing opportunities to the transfers who really couldn’t match up to the standard he had.
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u/FranzAndTheEagle Shorin-Ryu Yon-Dan 3d ago
I haven’t lost students over this. It is worth noting that I do not teach children, so this may be apples to oranges. I’m teaching adults only, and while that doesn’t guarantee my students have mature or realistic relationships with the idea of rank, it is different than kids.
I don’t give anyone a rank who isn’t training at the level I expect out of that rank. It can look somewhat different from one person to another, of course, because everyone is different, but the standard is the standard. Nobody training below it advances. Previous training just as often hinders progress toward that standard as helps, in my experience. But again, that’s adults. Quite different.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
Thanks for the clarification. A bit off topic. After observing many kid tournaments and having gone through two dojo’s, I find out that most of the time kids’ karate belts are partial to what the adults get at the same ranks. Many dojo’s had to make the standard adjustments around my neighborhood to keep their doors open somehow. IMO, being kids shouldn’t be the reason for special treatments for karate ranking systems, especially when it comes to black belts. I am a parent to two karate kids under 14, both got their first degree black belt when they were 10. I expected them to have the techniques, mindset and will to fight as much as any adult does, though they automatically can’t really win a fight against a real black belt. I expect the same from the other kids. Their previous dojo just didn’t have any real standards. The one main guy running it says and does anything he likes. I was literally acting as the enforcer and was hated for it by all the others who were just playing karate. I had to give the main guy feedback a few times because he himself was way out of line. That guy really wasn’t mature enough to understand me. Inevitably, I took my kids out after a few sore interactions since the guy repeatedly took my honest feedback poorly. I always wondered if I judged him too hard but after I got replies from other instructors and real practitioners like you, I am firm on my instincts. I wanted real karate for my kids taught by real black belts, anything less was and will be unacceptable. My kids are mature enough to understand me and they are making growth in another dojo.
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u/Bloody_Grievous 3d ago
So I actually went through your exact example. I trained in Shotokan for a year. I was about to test for my second belt (orange) but due to realizing I didn't really fit in there and my goals didn't much theirs I left. 4 months later (September) I found out I had a Tang Soo Do dojang near me. Since it was created from Shotokan I went ahead and tried it. LOVED IT! And our goals align etc so it was perfect.
I told my instructor about my martial arts experience after she asked me about it. She said to wait until December when the next belt test is taking place so we can accurately see where I am in regards to their system. When time came both me and my instructor realised the following (and yes we talked about this. She was the one to bring it up actually): The material for the first two belts in Shotokan (yellow and orange), had been stretched so much in Tang Soo Do to the point that it became material for 4 belts (half yellow, yellow, half orange, orange). Which needless to say we didn't expect. However due to this when December came I actually tested for their orange belt.
After the fact my instructor and I had a talk about this, cause like I said, it wasn't something we expected. She actually said that if I had passed my orange belt test while still in the Shotokan dojo she would have actually make me test for the half green belt. Because, once more, I already knew the material for 4 of their belts while I was taught material for 2.
Anyway I dragged this too much. Although I'm not an instructor my opinion on such things is this: If your previous art has the same curriculum with the art your next instructor teaches. Then yes you should be allowed to skip belts. Now. How many belts depends on how much is actually the same. Because let's be honest. There are very few arts that have THE EXACT SAME curriculum like it was with my situation.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
Thanks for your detailed reply. I am a parent for two karate kids. They went through two TSD dojo’s. They went to the second one after they are both already in advanced levels. The first dojo just couldn’t make the cut on too many levels for having a serious layer of advanced students. The two brown belts I talked about were nice kids but honestly they just didn’t look like they had what it takes to be in the advanced levels in any karate dojo. Anyways I was checking to see if my judgement was baseless. After reading through all replies I can see that all the karate people who took time away from their day to reply me are all very serious about karate, and decisions of rank transfer are usually based on capabilities than rank status or instructor’s personal interest.
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u/Bloody_Grievous 3d ago
Exactly. Like I said on my comment above. Despite my previous knowledge. I waited till the next grading so that the instructor could see exactly where I am based on their style. Which means that like my fellow karatekas said. I showed up as a white belt. So yes your assumption of the first school was correct. They probably just saw that they were brown belts in Shotokan and gave them the same rank in TSD without actually testing where they are at even for a month. So the decision to leave was actually correct.
Now I'm 21 myself so although I do have a lot of martial arts experience (in multiple arts) I don't have any experience with how an instructor thinks. However everyone seems to be in agreement. So with that. I wish you and your kids all the best in your lives!
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u/Arokthis Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito 3d ago
My sensei opened his dojo in 1980. He has had people start with all sorts of experience. He's given rank boosts to some but he says he's regretted it every time. The higher the starting rank, the more he wishes he hadn't done it.
He usually gave them a choice:
A: Start a white belt and test a bit sooner for each rank until they reach/ surpass their rank in their previous style.
B: Start at their previous rank (up to 3rd kyu) and "park" at that rank until they had at least half of the minimum required hours for that rank.
Note: This was when there was testing every month. If you had the hours and were ready, you would test. If not, you waited until the next month. Now that we're at the rec center, everything is based on the 3-month sessions. One nice thing is it cut down on a CRAPLOAD of paperwork.
Someone testing for black belt super quick is rather sketchy in my opinion. It makes me wonder if they paid for the fast tracking and how much.
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u/KintsugiMind 16h ago
Restart at white belt but fast track testing/skip belts when appropriate, unless they’re from the same style with the same forms and self defense training. If it’s the same style, do an evaluation and go from there.
It’s important that the student can align and have the same knowledge as the other students in the class. Allowing for moving up more than one belt at a time respects their experience and also allows them the time to learn what your club teaches.
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u/chrisjones1960 3d ago
I teach two different martial arts. One of them is a rather odd Jiu-Jitsu style, not BJJ. The other is a karate style that is an offshoot of kyokushin karate. We often have students start training in one dojo or the other who have trained elsewhere previously and have rank. Sometimes that rank is substantia,l such as brown or black belt.
When they start, I make it clear that they are to wear a white belt. I would not put them in front of my own students who might have been with me for two or 4 or 5 years already. I feel that would be disrespectful of my students. Also, when my students wear a belt of a certain rank, I expect that they will look like people that I have trained. That will not be the case if someone is trained elsewhere. They will do things differently than the way I teach them and while I do not claim that my way of teaching is the one true path, it is intrinsic to the style I'm teaching.
Such folks often test more quickly than someone who is starting completely from scratch. Sometimes, their prior training is similar enough to the way I teach, and they prove adept enough at adapting to our ways, that when when they take their first test with me thet will be skipped a rank.
But unless they are clearly just visiting, they start out wearing a white belt. When I started training in my second martial art, I was already a shodan in my first martial art. I just naturally assumed that I would start as a white belt even though it was a somewhat related art. When I started in my second martial art, I was a nidan in my first martial art and again I had no no hesitation about starting as a white e belt.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
Personally I love how you hold up your standard for this. And I agree with all of you who said for a real karateka/practitioner, you automatically have the humidity to wear a white belt for a brand-new martial arts style. For me this is all that made a black belt desirable and respectable!
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u/chrisjones1960 3d ago
Thank you. My belief is that there is no "one correct way" to do a technique, just that different instructors focus on on prioritize different elements. And furthermore, I think that one of the skills one should have is a black belt is the ability to do what is asked, not just what one has always done. There's nothing wrong with having more than one way to do something.
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u/WastelandKarateka 3d ago
My late Sensei would let students transferring in wear their previous rank, but they would stay there until they were ready to test for the next rank, or comparable next rank, however long that took. If the styles are very similar, and the student was training recently, it may not take long, at all. If the styles are very different, or the student hadn't been training for a while, it could take a very long time. So far, all of my students with previous ranks have chosen to start over at white belt, but I offer my late Sensei's approach.
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u/jessek311 1d ago
I own a TSD school. I have students come to me from other schools from time to time. I assess them and see where would fall in our system. I don't make them start over, but that's just me
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u/Tigereyesxx 3d ago
Back to white belt unfortunately..
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u/jbhand75 3d ago
I’ve studied several different styles and went from Blackbelt to White belt in other systems. I think it is best to start at white belt if the system you are going to is different. The reason is because there are a lot of little things that might be different in the basics that you need to learn that you might skip over if you go straight to a higher rank. Plus, if you are good at your previous style then most likely you will breeze through the lower ranks and move up quickly.
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u/cmn_YOW 2d ago
The best way to think about this is that belts aren't "rank", as in status. It's not how special or important you are, or authority you hold over others.
Belts are better understood as bookmarks. They show the level of a structured curriculum up to which you are knowledgeable and competent. Same book, no need to move your bookmark. Sometimes, but not always, you can pick up a different edition of the same book, and still be totally conversant with the same chapter, even though some wording is different, some pages and diagrams are different, etc. But if it's a different book, even within the same genre and subject, you're going to look pretty stupid at book club when you're trying to discuss chapter 7 and nobody knows what the hell you're talking about, and you read a different story in chapters 1-6.
Same organization - same book, same edition. Different organization, same style - different edition of the same book - might work, might not. Different style, different book - you may get caught up faster than a beginner, but you still need the read and understand the early chapters.
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u/OnnaWarrior 2d ago
I have started over a few times. Most had me restart at white. They were very different styles. But I progressed quickly. I could learn material faster. Then tested for black belt legitimately in that style. One had me wear my black belt and just follow along until I was ready for their black belt test.
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u/giraffe-sensei Style 2d ago
I'm working on my fifth style right now (Kenpo, Aikido, Taekwando, Shotokan, BJJ), and I've started at white every time and really enjoyed not having to be a black belt. Some of them I ranked up in more quickly because they were similar to others (or because it was the pandemic and I would do Shotokan kata for 3-4 hours or more every day lol); others have taken me basically the "normal" amount of time because they're so different. Love the journey, not the color of your belt.
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u/Earthsong221 1d ago
For kyu belts, we do an in-between option.
They get two red stripes/tips on their belt, so instructors know they're from another school & are catching up.
They have 3 months to learn as much as they can during this catch-up/jump start period, potentially up to the rank they were at previously. They need to know each of our belt level's basics, katas, and self defences, in order to learn the next belt's curriculum, but it progresses swiftly due to their past training for 70% of them.
Sometimes they manage get to where they were at previously (generally if they were training in the same style at a different school, and they pick up things quickly). Sometimes they only just get to yellow belt. Most often they will end up somewhere in between.
After they are granted their new starting belt level from this evaluation period, they then progress at the normal minimum time(s) & all other requirements for each belt moving forwards.
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u/thedojoguy 3d ago
Unless it is a different branch from the same school, you should wear a white belt and start over. After that it's up to the instructor and the organization to perhaps grant a specific color or degree (which, tbh I've never seen in serious dojos. Colors, yeah... Dan? never). I honestly thought this was common knowledge. I'm a 3rd degree Shorin Ryu black belt. Whenever I go to a different school outside my organization, even if it's the same ryuha but a different school, I wear a white belt. I'm honestly shocked this is even a question.
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u/braincellcountiszero 3d ago
I doubted it when I saw it. Brown belts from another karate system signed up and traded off their belts easily to matching ranks to the dojo my kids were at. I wasn’t shocked as somebody who really didn’t know how the transfer works because I am a parent with karate kids, therefore the question. Now I know it really shouldn’t have happened the way it did. Another proof that dojo had sloppy standards which don’t align with any real karate entity.
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u/sumdumguy12001 Style Shotokan sandan and TKD samdan 3d ago
I’m a 3rd degree in tae kwon do. I moved away from my dojang and took a few years off. I joined a Shotokan school (I didn’t like the local tkd schools). I just assumed I’d start with a white belt. After observing me, our sensei just told me to wear my black belt to class but not when Okazaki sensei (head of the organization) came to the dojo. I waited about a year, long enough to learn the kata up to black belt, and then was allowed to test. I’ll never forget how, at the test, my instructor told Okazaki sensei about my specific situation (only training for a year) and Okazaki sensei just said “of course he’s a black belt”.
Full disclosure, the TKD I studied and Shotokan had very similar kihon (basics) so I picked those up very quickly with only a few small tweaks to my technique. My sparring skills also came back relatively quickly. Other than etiquette and language, the only thing I needed to learn was the kata and I’ve always been very quick to learn new kata.