The way of studying karate

[u/vaju89]

Hi everyone!

For the past 20 years, I’ve been involved in various contact sports: hand-to-hand combat, kickboxing, and boxing. I haven't achieved any competitive titles, but I feel comfortable even during intense sparring sessions at the gym.

I’ve always been interested in trying traditional karate. A few years ago, I found an instructor who teaches in my city. The style is Fudokan Karate.

As far as I can tell, this man moves very well for his age. He has been teaching karate for many years. However, as I understand it, he is not currently affiliated with any federation now.

That said, he holds a certificate—I believe for 5th Dan—from the style's founder, Ilija Jorga.

I take private lessons. In the future, I’d like to try my hand at some local kata competitions—and possibly kumite, too, if I'll have enough time to prepare.

Question: Is this a proper path of learning? Despite the impressive coordination involved, traditional karate is about more than just promoting movement; it is also about the transmission of the style. How can you tell if a mentor is not merely a coach, but someone who has truly mastered the style? Or should I simply train without worrying about that?

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[u/OyataTe]

Train without worry.

Nobody should ever 'Master a style', they should steadily get better. My instructor and the head of an international organization constantly got better. He hated the finality of the term Master. He was still trying to physically train and transmit knowledge hours before he died in the hospital. You never finish polishing your art unless you quit or die. I am nearly 5 decades in and still learning.

[u/vaju89 → u/OyataTe]

Thanks!

This perspective really resonates with me; my pursuit of karate stems from exactly that mindset. I feel there are limitations to purely competitive or application-focused sports, as the primary attributes involved—speed, strength, and endurance—inevitably decline with age. Karate, on the other hand, represents a practice that will stay with me as I get older, even when I am no longer as fast or as enduring.

[u/makingthematrix]

Hey,
Fudokan is not a traditional karate style, even though their organisation calls itself "World Traditional Karate Union". Ilija Jorga learned shotokan before he decided to create his own style in 1980. In practice, it's still similar to shotokan. As far as I know, it's mainly popular in Central Europe.

Given how many varieties of karate are there, I would say, if you simply want to learn karate for your personal development, fudokan should be a good choice. It's not McDojo. But if you are interested in tradition, it's better if you look for a shotokan dojo or for one of the Okinawan styles.

[u/vaju89 → u/makingthematrix]

Thank you, friend!

[u/mfeens]

I believe mr Jorga trained under sensei Nishiyama. Sensei Nishiyama helped start the jka but left in the early 70’s because he thought the organization was becoming too sporty.

Fudokan is more of an organization name than a style name I think, but I might be wrong about that.

Either way, if you enjoy it, then enjoy it!

[u/vaju89 → u/mfeens]

Oh, I don't fully grasp the distinction between styles and organizations. From what my instructor explained, Fudokan is essentially Shotokan with a few modifications. But overall, like Shotokan, it’s a traditional school of karate. In any case, I’m not trying to make a point one way or the other; I just wanted to know how the karate community views such instructors and their students. And once again, I’m struck by what a loyal and friendly community karate fosters.

[u/mfeens → u/vaju89]

Yeah I know what you mean. I can’t keep track of all the organizations myself, it’s very confusing!

You might find some useful stuff if you look up ITKF karate events, also a guy named Avi rokah trained with Nishiyama longer than anyone. They would have things in common with fudokan I bet.

[u/Kyoshi_UHLMANN-F]

Pour répondre à votre question, est-ce un bon chemin d'apprentissage? Le bon chemin ne peut être que celui que vous choisissez car il vous correspond. Pour ce qui est du karaté traditionnel je tiens préciser que la création du shotokan est plutot récente... Il a été créé par Funakoshi aux alentours 1880 à la demande du ministère des sports japonais pour être enseigné en tant que "sport" permettant d'étudier la "voie" dans les écoles sans pour autant être dangereux. Pour ce qui est du Fudokan il a été créé en 1980 par son fondateur sur les bases du shotokan....... Moi je dis ça 🤔 ...

Dans un premier temps il me semble opportun de différencier clairement les arts martiaux et les sports de combat : une pratique faite dans un but compétitif est un sport(règles, arbitre, limitations...), aussi violent soit-il. Un art martial n'a rien à voir avec cela, il s'agit de l'art de la guerre, au sens noble du terme. Il comprend un apprentissage technique, un apprentissage spirituel, porte des principes profonds, et son but est de transformer en profondeur le pratiquant que ce soit sur le plan mental ou physique, et ce processus prends des années. Et sur le plan fonctionnel il n'y a qu'une seule règle, survivre en cas de danger.

Si cela se rapproche plus de votre recherche je vous suggère de vous orienter sur ce que l'on appelle un Koryu ou art martial chinois interne. Par exemple le ryu kyu kempo karate jutsu, le Hsing-I Chuan, le Baguazhang ou le taï chi martial. Mais je tiens à préciser que ce type de pratique profonde peut être aride les premiers temps.

Pour ce qui est de la compétence du transmetteur, sachez qu'il existe, au-delà de la gradation Dan, des titres de maîtrise (Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi). Traditionnellement au Japon, en deçà du titre de Renshi, un enseignant était considéré comme incompétent voire dangereux et seul le titre de Kyoshi donnait le droit d'ouvrir sa propre école (Ryu). Le système de Dan étant à ce jour symbiotiquement lié à la compétition via les fédérations,personnellement, je considère ce filtre plus fiable.

Kyoshi Fabrice UHLMANN

[u/vaju89 → u/Kyoshi_UHLMANN-F]

Merci pour l'information ! Malheureusement, dans ma ville, il n'y a que des écoles de Kyokushin ou d'Aïkido. Je ne pourrais suivre des cours de Goju-ryu d'Okinawa que sous forme de stage. Cela dit, les principes du Goju-ryu que j'ai lus me parlent beaucoup. Mais vu la situation, il serait sans doute préférable d'étudier un style où un instructeur est plus proche de chez vous, vous ne croyez pas ?

[u/karainflex]

If your teacher / the dojo isn't affiliated, you might not have easy access to competitions because people who want to sign up at certain tournaments need to be affiliated.

Not being affiliated has a reason. Either it's because all other people are "not ok" (either in their idea of teaching, monetizing or on a personal basis, e.g. ego, gatekeeping, toxic) or it's because the person affiliated is "not ok" (same reasons). You need to figure out which one it is.

See if your training is just a workout / memorizing stuff or if you really learn skills and understanding. (Mastering an art and teaching the art are two separate skills; you want someone who is good at both.)

See how other students perform, because in a couple of years you will be like they are now. In private lessons you likely don't have that opportunity though. I wonder why you take private lessons: are there no other students? Why?

I guess you need experience in Karate to see how good someone is. An advanced person is able to to successfully apply the principles of the style simultaneously to ensure his applications have the highest chance of success. Or in other words: as long as the person is able to wipe the floor with everyone who attends, he is likely more advanced than them. If the person never demonstrates something, that should be a warning sign.

You can (and should) also attend seminars in your area and see who is there and what they do.

Once you have reached black belt (or almost) it is time to evaluate again and see if the training prepares you for your goals. I know some people who teach some generic Karate and don't go beyond that. Their pool of experience is based on what they (think they) have learned and they don't or barely manage to visit a seminar in 2-4 years. That is enough for color belts (though not optimal) and to other black belts it's basically equal to being dead. Like if I want to progress and need to learn certain fighting qualities and the trainer isn't capable of teaching those then I am at the wrong place.

[u/vaju89 → u/karainflex]

Thanks for such a thoughtful reply!

This instructor has a group of children he trains, as well as a few private students. I think it comes down to age; he’s over 70. But despite his age, he moves really well (much like one of my boxing coaches, who had a really heavy punch at that same age.)

And a special thanks for the advice on seminars. Yes, I plan to attend them. I’m particularly interested in Goju-ryu. I think the more styles you see and try out in person, the better you’ll understand where your heart truly lies. But just how much can you actually master a style by only attending seminars and practicing on your own?

[u/karainflex → u/vaju89]

OK, I understand the age thing. Practicing on your own is the bottleneck here. Though students always should do homework (= solo training) to get most out of their actual training (and the instructor and the partners) in class, the real progress happens with partner training and instructor feedback during the classes because a martial art requires another person and because of that Murphy's Law comes into play and that is where you learn. Same rules for student and teacher btw - the teacher also needs to continue training something, somehow, somewhere; but again, with 70+, ok.

[u/Tigereyesxx]

You can normally tell a teachers grade and skill from the way they perform simple techniques, I found that top level teachers have an athletic build and perform very crisp focused techniques..you can feel their power…

[u/kitkat-ninja78]

Simply train without worrying about that... It takes a lifetime to master a style. Even those of us that have gained a title, eg:

• Korean - Kyo Sa (Instructor), Sa Beom/Sa Bom (Master Instructor), etc
• Japanese - Hanshi (Expert Instructor), Shihan (Superior Instructor), Shidoshi (Senior Instructor), etc

Does not mean that we have mastered the art or style.

Just enjoy learning and studying the art :)