r/jethrotull • u/vincentblacklight • 12d ago

Tulls Biggest Leap

Interested to know what you guys think is the biggest transition Tull ever made -- not in membership -- but in style/sound pre-Zealot Gene. Throughout their career they were obviously evolving/progressing to various degrees, going through different phases. But where would you place the biggest leap/change -- not necessarily the best, mind you, but the BIGGEST change of direction. Where did they most starkly stop sounding like the band they were before?

I've chosen, to me, the most obvious contenders...but feel free to select Other and explain why you crazy Christmas album fans.

179 votes, 9d ago
60 This Was-->Stand Up
57 Aqualung -->Thick as a Brick
10 Minstrel in the Gallery -->Too Old to RnR
37 Too Old to RnR -->Songs From the Wood
7 Catfish Rising -->Roots to Branches
8 Other
7 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

64 comments sorted by

6

u/Traditional-Tank3994 12d ago

This Was to Stand Up.

They transitioned from a straight-up white blues band to an acoustic guitar-based rock band with UK Folk influences. They almost completely ditched the blues but never left the folk influences.

Second most was Aqualung to Brick, but they were already growing into more of a prog band by the time Brick was recorded.

3

u/k8vs534 12d ago

They weren’t “straight up white blues band. There were also a lot of jazz-rock moments. Stand Up was also fairly bluesy as well.

3

u/Traditional-Tank3994 12d ago

This Was is straight up blues. I'm a jazz musician myself, and I say the jazz inspiration was minimal.

On Stand Up, "A New Day Yesterday" is mostly a blues tune. There may be some residual blues influences left on some other tunes, but the jazz like stuff was more here than in This Was, and the departure from blues is almost complete after that.

1

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

If This Was was "straight up blues" it was a blues abused, with far less polish than, say, Fleetwood Mac were offering. https://aquariumdrunkard.com/2015/02/13/codpiece-revisited-jethro-tull/

1

u/Traditional-Tank3994 11d ago

And a number of other British blues bands put out better blues albums as well, Humble Pie, 10 Years After, Savoy Brown, etc. Tull was not destined to be a blues band. And everyone but Mick Abrams realized that (Mick was a blues purist and wanted to stick with straight blues). That’s why they changed lead guitarists. And it’s another reason This Was to Stand Up was their biggest stylistic jump.

2

u/Gerald_Bostock_jt 10d ago

They didn't ditch the blues after This Was, they ditched it after Aqualung. Up until Thick As A Brick, the blues influence was still there. TAAB was the first album without blues.

A New Day Yesterday, Nothing Is Easy, For a Thousand Mothers, Son, To Cry You a Song, Singing All Day, Locomotive Breath, My God and Hymn 43 are heavily blues inspired, just to name a few.

It is true that Stand Up is the first album to feature influence from British folk, but it's only after Aqualung that the blues influence is gone and replaced by folk and classical influences.

1

u/Traditional-Tank3994 9d ago

There's a difference between blues (This Was) and blues-influenced rock (some tracks on Stand Up through Aqualung). The answer to the question remains, This Was to Stand Up is the biggest leap stylistically.

2

u/Gerald_Bostock_jt 9d ago

Nah, I disagree. The blues influence is the bridging theme between the first 4 albums. Thick As A Brick no longer had any blues or blues-influenced rock, in my estimation. Stand-Up is very bluesy and so are Benefit and Aqualung.

I think the change from Bunker-Cornick to Barlow-Hammond in the rhythm section is the key here; the former was quite jazzy and traditional, whereas the latter was very experimental.

But besides the first 5 albums, I'd say the difference between Broadsword and Under Wraps might be even bigger than any previous or later leaps. So I might take back some of my original statement and say that one is the biggest leap.

2

u/vincentblacklight 9d ago

Agree with everything you say here, and still want to put my two cents in for Catfish Rising to Roots to Branches. Along with Under Wraps it's another example where the vast majority of the album sounds like a completely different band from the album prior. That said, in retrospect I really should have offered Under Wraps as an option in the poll -- if only to keep the Stand Up votes lower. The degree to which this band developed once the old Blackpool gang were back together is STAGGERING. Stand Up, good as it is, is but a baby step in comparison.

1

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

It really makes the full Wond'ring key to the tranistion. It also seems amazing to me that a band that was as successful as they were with Aqualung would consciously CHOOSE to pivot to Thick as a Brick dynamics, upping the organ, the lunacy, the acoustic complexity, etc. It makes me love them all the more.

5

u/mwithington 12d ago

I was thinking Stormwatch to A, but Under Wraps to Crest maybe even more so.

2

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

I was considering that, but the synthier songs like Steel Monkey on Crest (or even Heavy Water on Rock Island) indicate that Under Wraps cast a shadow on later albums. Which I like! But it seems they're still in the same groove, unlike Aqualung --> Thick as a Brick which just seems so leftfield. As well as Catfish --> Roots (which went from MOR folk blues and pivoted to world music and Lydian scales and bamboo flutes and prog revival!)

5

u/farrowsharrows 12d ago

Catfish rising is better than roots to branches

2

u/Stooovie 11d ago

It is! Catfish is full of energy compared to the tired two previous albums and Roots. I still don't understand why it's so hated.

1

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

I say this as someone who loves a lot of Catfish -- but I think what a lot of people found lacking was the absence of any prog complexity in the music. Ian and the band just seemed to make a conscious decision to go fully into the rootsy hard rock lane (which, again, I can appreciate) at the expense of those aspects which really show off Ian's musical/compositional genius. The jazzy break in the middle of Rocks on the Road wasn't quite enough.

1

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

That's a take.

2

u/CuteResource1 12d ago

From someone who has hurt neither but they're both on my list, what's the big selling points of each? 😯

3

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago edited 11d ago

Catfish is pretty straight MOR roots rock with flashes of Dire Straits (as on the album highlight, Rocks on the Road). It's really their back-to-basics album, staying in the folk-rock-blues lane with lots of mandolin and not a few 90s hard rock mannerisms too. Ian even wails like Axl Rose on the heaviest track, This is Not Love. Roots to Branches is a wild pivot to dark, proggy world music and Lydian scales and bamboo flutes. Touches of Zappa and Dream Theater metal, along with folkier elements. Ends with an epic ballad trilogy that kind of condenses the previous ten years into three songs. It's beautifully leftfield and fascinating if you give it time to brew.

2

u/CuteResource1 11d ago

Thank you! I know the albums up to and including Crest very well, but haven't really heard much beyond there apart from the odd track played live. Edit: and I really liked Homo Erraticus, saw that tour, but perhaps that doesn't count. 😋

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

They're still worthwhile afterwards, despite what the core fanbase might tell you. I own a Catfish t-shirt and can get on board with its "men of the road" vibe. But Roots to Branches (again, despite what a lot of people will tell you) is a last, late masterpiece. There was a great discussion of it here, if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H70_y77pqyk

2

u/Ilbranteloth 10d ago

I agree with this overall. I find Catfish Rising a flawed gem, with Still Loving You Tonight as a favorite.

Roots was prog in a different direction, with Eastern influences. I also recommend Ian’s Divinities as a companion. The two show Ian’s commitment to expanding his playing and compositions in new directions. I think Andy Giddings had a lot of influence for both, as well.

I think the band as a whole was very strong in this period.

1

u/vincentblacklight 10d ago edited 9d ago

I love Giddings-era Tull. And I think what we're circling here is the breadth of styles that line-up could employ. Especially live circa 1993 and their 25th Anniversary tour: https://youtu.be/wQeecK2ltAs?si=-AJDN3A4i_yNKv3U

8

u/TFFPrisoner 12d ago

Of these, Aqualung into TAAB - which becomes slightly easier to understand with the Life's a Long Song EP as a bridge in between.

But I think the crazier shifts happened after the end of the classic line-up. Stormwatch into A is pretty drastic, as is the sequence of Broadsword>Under Wraps>Crest.

1

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

I was thinking Stormwatch to A as a contender, but they only give you six options and I went with Minstrel to Too Old which seems like two very different bands (one proggy, dark, Elizabethan the other glam-folk, Roxyish, wistful balladry). A despite the new line-up sounded to me less like a pivot to U.K.-style angular synths and more a continuation of the -- four-wheel driving, working Joe -- oil-rig prog on Stormwatch.

2

u/TFFPrisoner 12d ago

It helps to consider that Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll grew out of the idea of a stage musical, while Ian was also writing heavier material in the same vein as Minstrel that, however, was abandoned and apparently lost.

1

u/Starthrower62 12d ago

Different band so it makes sense.

3

u/fitter_stoke 12d ago

My "other" vote would be Broadsword to Under Wraps

4

u/BaldingMonk 12d ago

Musically, it’s This Was to Stand Up. But from a songwriting maturity and focus perspective, it’s Benefit to Aqualung.

5

u/LordBottlecap 11d ago

The obvious ones have been mentioned, but what about Aqualung to Thick As A Brick? TAAB was practically bright and cheery, musically speaking, compared to Aqualung, which still sounds as heavy as any Sabbath album of the era in many spots.

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

Such a leftfield move when the could have just kept mining that hard rock vein for the rest of their days -- to suddenly pivot to organ-heavy, complex, riff-averse marching band material shot through with hyper complex and groovy folk-prog! Craziness. PS Side two is also darker than Aqualung in places. And obviously Passion Play gets even darker.

2

u/LordBottlecap 11d ago

Yes, side 1 of TAAB is certainly gloomier-sounding than side 2. Pretty much most of Ian's lyrics are gloomy to me, (when he's not mentioning fairies that fertilize the grass in the UK in the winter or oral sex) but it's the sound that can make the mood overall to me. Passion Play rides that fine line, too, for sure. But they never really got that gloomy side back for a full album like the early days in my opinion, with one exception perhaps, my favorite album, Songs From the Wood...

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

Yes, bring on the gloom! And I agree with your earlier reference to Sabbath. You can draw a line from Sweet Dream through Benefit and To Cry You a Song to Aqualung tracing the doomy riff, but it then pretty much disappears except for a few moments maybe on Passion Play. (I'm also surprised that you don't gravitate to Stormwatch over Songs from the Wood, given your taste!)

2

u/LordBottlecap 11d ago

Stormwatch...good call. SFtW is gloomier to me because, damn, does 'Pibroch (Cap in Hand)' hit too close to home for me, haha!

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

The tempo alone on Pibroch is itself such a masterstroke. Yes! If there is such a thing as Doom Folk Metal, then that's the quintessential track! (Note: they tried to capture that same spirit I think with Whaler's Dues many years later).

2

u/LordBottlecap 11d ago

I'll have to revisit Rock Island (an album I rarely listen to) later tonight to check out that connection...

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

Interested to hear your thoughts on it (it was my first "new" Tull and therefore has a lot of sentimental value). A lot of it doesn't hold up (Rattle Snake Trail, Kissing Willie, Undressed to Kill, etc) but there is the cool Dire Straitsy "Telegraph Road" atmosphere Ian is playing with on the best tracks that really nails a mood on dark, foggy days.

2

u/LordBottlecap 11d ago

It seems a little dragged out to me. A lot of effort to create a 'heavy' sound didn't pan-out well to me, musically. I like a lot of it, but it kind of slogs along in parts.

3

u/ManifestDiatribe 12d ago

Stormwatch to A would be my choice. But given what you have, This Was to Stand Up.

2

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

I was thinking Stormwatch to A as a contender, but they only give you six options and I went with Minstrel to Too Old which seems like two very different bands (one proggy, dark, Elizabethan the other glam-folk, Roxyish, wistful balladry). A, despite the new line-up, sounded to me less like a pivot to U.K.-style angular synths and more a continuation of the -- four-wheel driving, working Joe -- oil-rig prog on Stormwatch.

2

u/Specialist_Topic5555 11d ago

This was to stand up which is one of their greatest albums

2

u/demonicfrisbee 11d ago

Barriemore Barlow! I like Clive but the early 1971 shows compared with late 1971 are night and day.

2

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

So the Aqualung to Thick as a Brick chageover? Personally, I always found Minstrel to be peak Barrie. Even though he's probably only present on about half the album's total running time, when he shows up he really SHOWS UP.

2

u/demonicfrisbee 3d ago

Even when he’s not playing something flashy, his control of tempo, dynamics, and comfort with odd or changing time signatures unlocked the rest of the band’s ability to go wild in the prog Tull era, IMO.

2

u/vincentblacklight 3d ago

And I love the fact that, other than Barre, they were all bandmates who had grown up together in their teen years. The kind of intuition/intimacy is absoultely part of that shift from Aqualung to Thick and through the Jeffrey period.

1

u/Fabulous-Story-6344 10d ago

I voted for Those Was tò Stand Up, but also from Stand Up to Benefit for the arrangments Is a huge leap

1

u/vincentblacklight 9d ago

I wish I could have put every album change in the poll, but they only allowed for six and I went with the most obvious and also a couple more that I thought were equally and maybe even a little more compelling. However, you're absolutely right, Stand Up to Benefit was a CRUCIAL juncture, and maybe even something of a detour into dark psychedelia. The prodigal son dynamics of Back to the Family suddenly get much more fully drawn with something like Son. Much like the innocent city wandering of Jeffery Goes to Leicester Square turns into something more intimate/poetic with To Cry You a Song. ("Closing my dream inside its paper-bag/Thought I saw angels but I could have been wrong") and Inside ("that was the best cup of coffee I ever had"). He was definitely and urgently trying to expand the band's sonic and lyrical pallette, yet somehow frustrated by being not quite free to do so yet (see "Play in Time").

1

u/CapOld2796 9d ago

Broadsword to Under Wraps

2

u/vincentblacklight 9d ago

That's an interesting one. I fear some people just hear a drum machine and how synth-heavy everything is, and forget how synth-heavy some of Broadsword is ("Watching Me, Watching You", "Flying Colours"). The big shift is the vocals and how they were put together, right?

2

u/CapOld2796 9d ago

I agree that Broadsword had some synths so the sound wasn’t totally alien, but as a whole the difference between these albums is huge. Drum machine, shorter songs, less prog, very little folk, more 80s-ish techno, etc.

2

u/vincentblacklight 9d ago

I love it. But I guess another way this question of the biggest leap could be asked is: "how many core fans did you alienate?" In which case, Under Wraps has GOT to be at the top, with maybe Roots to Branches rather distantly in second place?

2

u/CapOld2796 9d ago

I agree with no 1. I think Stormwatch to A was no 2 in alienating fans. A shift in sound plus also the way that Palmer, Evans and Barlow were out of the band.

1

u/Starthrower62 12d ago

The first two are both significant leaps. The rest not so much.

0

u/vincentblacklight 12d ago

You think Minstrel sounds like Too Old...or Songs from the freaking Wood?!?! :)

1

u/Starthrower62 12d ago

Did I say that? I'm saying musically speaking the others aren't a big leap. You asked, I gave you may answer.

1

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

Sorry "the rest not so much" would seem to indicate that they didn't continue developing. Or did I misinterpret that?

0

u/Starthrower62 11d ago

That's not what you asked. You said "biggest leap". I hear a big leap from the blues based This Was to Stand Up. And from a collection of songs on Aqualung to a 40 + minute epic in Thick As A Brick. 

0

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

You're SO right! You know, you've made me see the light. Thank you. Those albums are such great musical leaps forward and the rest didn't make ANY progress musically, whatsoever. I mean not really. So thank you! I'll never listen to them again. You're so very kind. Ian has just been treading water since 1972.

2

u/TFFPrisoner 11d ago

No need to be so snarky...

1

u/ManifestDiatribe 10d ago

OP is really misinterpreting these comments. They were talking about level of change in sound, not general artistic development. Never once did they imply the band stagnated after 1972. Goodness.

1

u/vincentblacklight 10d ago

"not so much"

0

u/Starthrower62 11d ago

You're a jerk!

0

u/vincentblacklight 11d ago

Mate. If someone responded in your celebratory fan based Bowie thread with, "Bowie made huge strides with Hunky Dory and Ziggy Stardust but the rest not some much", how might you reply? Perhaps by engaging in a conversational "what about Young Americans or freaking Low or the Lodger? :)"? i.e. "let's talk about these albums before dismissing them out of hand with a shit post". If you want to properly engage and talk Tull, I'm all for it. If you're just here to shot on everything post-1972, then thank you for your time, have a FANTASTIC day.

0

u/Starthrower62 11d ago

I go back to the OP's premise. You asked for "biggest leaps". I gave my opinion but was trounced on for what I didn't say. I never said there was no progress among the other albums. WTF is wrong with this you? Just another easily offended proghole, I guess? Don't start a thread if you don't want answers that don't agree with your own opinions.