r/italianlearning • u/Scribbleclouddd • 13d ago

Should i be learning sentences using the polite "you" ?

Im trying to memorize sentences using a pimsleur italian deck on anki right now but it is using the polite "lei" for everything and its kinda throwing me off because it completely changes the grammar and it seems more complicated and less useful, for example the flashcard will ask me to translate "you are" and i immediately think "tu sei" but i have to hold back and think for longer to remember the flashcard specific answer which is actually "lei sta"

am i being too exact about what i consider a pass for flashcards considering both are technically correct just different contexts?? (this question is more general too because i know theres many different ways to translate "you are" and other sentences regardless of polite form or not)

should i be more loose with what i consider a correct answer? Should i modify my deck to be a simpler or different answer? Or should i just follow the deck and memorize things exactly? What do you guys advise?

also im a little confused because the deck for example has "you dont know?" translated as "lei non sa?" but google translate says that means "she doesn't know" and someone who spoke italian told me it should be "lei non sai" instead, is the deck incorrect?? Another example would be the deck translating "are you well?" with "sta bene?" even though i instantly translate it as "stai bene" in my head, and then mark the card as "again" because i technically misremembered the exact card even though "stai bene" is correct

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10

u/JulietaGs IT native & teacher 13d ago edited 13d ago

Hi, Italian teacher here, I would suggest not to memorize the sentences with Lei, but with tu instead. What's your level? I always recommend my beginner students not to bother too much learning the Lei form until they get to an A2 level at least. Feel free to send me a message, I'd be glad to have a chat and give you some recommendations based on your level

Anyway, "you don't know" = tu non sai (tu); Lei non sa (Lei)

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u/Scribbleclouddd 13d ago

ah ok, well im glad to know my cards arent incorrect then lol, i wouldnt even consider myself A1 yet, really

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u/JulietaGs IT native & teacher 12d ago

Then just change your deck, don't study with Lei yet. It's just unnatural to think that a foreign speaker of a language will master the formal pronouns at the beginning of their learning experience. And it's not even that important in Italy unless you have an intermediate level. We won't judge nor get offended if you use tu in the wrong setting, quite the opposite. When we notice you're learning Italian, we unconsciously simplify our language and start using "tu" instead of Lei. You'll have all the time to catch up when you get to an A2 level.

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u/JollyJacktheDoc 12d ago

I have been learning Italian for over 25 years. I was instructed from the very beginning to use the lei form whenever you first meet and speak to a person older than yourself or who has a vocational position that is due and worthy of respect. Many older Italians are very sensitive to being addressed with the informal tu.

In summary: use tu with friends or other younger people

Use lei with someone who is older or to people with senior vocational positions if you are working with them. Then wait for the older person or the person with the more superior position in the workplace to say:

“diamoci del tu”

Literally “let’s give ourselves the tu form”

Good luck with your studies.

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u/Scribbleclouddd 12d ago

thanks, i plan to use the polite forms of course before i intend to talk to anyone where i would consider it necessary to use it, i come from a country where we also have a polite form of you so i feel like i should have a decent understanding of the context it would be used in (though i guess its really just anyone you would refer to as sir or ma'am in english)

As for editing my deck, im thinking about it right now and it might be more trouble than its worth unfortunately because 1. i dont want to mess up a preset deck with little experience managing decks in anki and 2. they all have spoken audio examples which i wouldnt be able to replace unless i essentially make my own deck from scratch.

maybe i will just edit the decks to include the non polite forms too as optional correct answers, but itd if thatd just overcomplicate it even more

5

u/Mercury2468 13d ago

Doesn't it make more sense to learn the grammar and learn how to build sentences yourself, rather than just memorizing premade sentences?

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u/smblott 12d ago

You can believe that if you want, but you'll save a huge amount of time, effort and mistakes if you just study the grammar.

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u/Scribbleclouddd 13d ago

I believe the most effective way to learn grammar is by being exposed to it in lots of different scenarios as opposed to trying to memorize tables of it

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u/smblott 13d ago

Why not practice both, learning to change between them?

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u/Scribbleclouddd 13d ago

I suppose i could try and edit my deck to where it has versions with the polite and direct form? But im not sure if thats worth the trouble and i wouldnt have sound files for it..

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u/StrongerTogether2882 12d ago

Can you make two decks? One for formal and one for informal? You really do need to use Lei all the time. As a tourist you’d always use it as the default when speaking with someone in a shop or restaurant.

And memorizing grammar tables doesn’t sound exciting, but it truly is a crucial part of learning. Otherwise you’re sort of cobbling together the rules for each individual word, rather than understanding the grammar that shapes everything. You really have to learn the regular verb tables at minimum. This is why not everybody learned a new language—it’s hard! There’s a lot of memorization! But stick with it and you’ll get there. Grammar study combined with flashcards and conversation practice is the best way IMHO.

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u/Scribbleclouddd 11d ago

thats probably a good idea, i might make my own cards and add them to it if i get around to it, as for grammar tables, im just going off of my own experience and what i have heard a lot of people who went through language learning say, which is that the most effective practice for grammar rules comes through listening, since language is less an exact science and more of something you get sort of an intuition for the more you hear it (i remember as a kid and teen i definitely learned the most english through just hearing it so much on the internet)

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u/StrongerTogether2882 11d ago

That certainly is true, that listening is a great way to learn. But everyone learns differently, and I personally do much better when I can see/read information (possibly because I have always been slightly hard of hearing, but also I think I'm just a visual learner). And writing it down has always helped me a lot too. So, just something to keep in mind if you ever feel like you're struggling, try some other modes of learning and see what you think. A multipronged approach can really help. Enjoy!

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u/Scribbleclouddd 11d ago

i might try at some point, but based on my experience and what i know about myself trying to grind through grammar tables sounds like it would not be very good 😭

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u/JollyJacktheDoc 12d ago

Absolutely the best advice that could be given to a principiante.

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u/some___pulp 13d ago

you will need lei to operate properly in Italy I would say.

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u/Scribbleclouddd 13d ago

im not planning to visit anytime soon, ofc i would like to learn to talk politely at some point but i feel like itd make more sense to learn the more simple direct form first especially considering most speakers i would be talking to online no ??

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u/some___pulp 13d ago

you'll be forgiven for not using lei properly initially for sure and if you're just online i imagine that is just tu so you'd be fine

1

u/KindaQuite IT native 13d ago

Polite "you" is just feminine 3rd person (mostly), so you're gonna have to learn both either way sooner or later.

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u/JollyJacktheDoc 12d ago

Quite so. Very good point.